129 replies to this topic

[Imperius]

You shouldn't be able to fire at all while jump jetting. Till you land again you are not to fire. Simple really...

[Clit Beastwood]

Imperius, on 16 January 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

You shouldn't be able to fire at all while jump jetting. Till you land again you are not to fire. Simple really...

Why? Conversely, don't. stand. still - jumpsnipers have a hard time hitting a moving target - if you're standing there with your thumb up your booty, you deserve to die. The weapons should be less accurate while jumping, but there is no justifiable reason you shouldn't be able to shoot. Again, another suggestion that would seriously harm lights. If anything, lets make it *more* real and say that firing 2+ ppc's causes jump jets to cut out, targeting computer to fuzz, something like that so we can act like weapons with high current draw actually seem to draw current. Maybe 2ppc have 10% chance of forcing the onboard computers to reboot, 3ppc have a 20%, etc. and get rid of ghost heat. Get rid of the gauss delay and come up with a current draw number. Have the available current based on engine size so bigger(heavier) engines have more current, but you've got less weight to play with. Sure, go ahead and run a dual PPC/Gauss jumpsniper, but understand there's a XX percent chance of shutting down. In LORE there's a precedent - blood of kerensky trilogy, vlad's mech had 2 gauss and a host of other energy weapons - firing both gauss caused the rest of his weapons to chain fire due to lack of current. Sometimes I run a "run and gun" build, but I do not find "poptarting" to be fun *at all* (but it works) - when I see a team of enemy poptarts and I'm in a light, I just get in under PPC range and go to work - everything has a counter, you just have to be smart enough to find it.

Edited by Fierostetz, 16 January 2014 - 09:09 AM.

[Varent]

Ryoken, on 15 January 2014 - 05:52 PM, said:

In the current meta it is a lot of synced PPC&ACs for several reasons. Both weapons do deliver pinpoint damage. Similar projectile speed (exsp. AC5&PPC). And in case of the AC the extreme DPS.

So as it has been discussed in the NGNG Stream (http://www.nogutsnog...8c42d65e7d4e577) to desync those two weapons, as they did desync the Gaussrifle with its charging mechanism.

Autocannons are a tad out of line in my opinion. As soon as you have ballistic hardpoints on a mech, it is put ACs on it ftw. And as soon as you put ACs on there the damage per match gets up to the roof. Therefore they should be looked at first when it comes to rebalancing/desyncing. One suggestion would be to change ACs from making pinpoint damage with one projectile into firing a burst of projectiles with each shot and therefore make them spead damage.

PPCs nowadays work fine according to my observations. (But er-ppcs could need some love as they are hardly seen because of the heat problems) Never the less one way to also desync the PPC from the powerfull pinpoint-syncspeed-combo that rules the current meta could be to derive the PPCs of their pinpoint damage as well. For example they could do some splash damage to adjecent locations as the particle containing bubble splashes on the enemy mech armor. Like 7 damage to the hit location and splitt the remaining 3 points of damage to adjecent locations.

Then there are jump jets that need another look to. As it is jump jets do not provide an additional way of mobility but also and very much an additional way of fighting - jumpsniping.

Concerning balancing Jumpjets and heat I just wanted to add that in TT, even if you jump only one hex, the minimum heat generated is 3! not 1! So maybe heat may be some tool of adjustment.

Also rules for building mechs could be changed. As it stands now most mechs only mount one jumpjet to minmax its use. So maybe also giving a minimum of 3 jumpjets may be a way to tool around.

I also like the ideas of recharge and precharge time discussed, or even more JJ-shake.

So what do you guys think? And please try to be polite and constructive, insults and capslock do not bring us any further.

Cheers, Ryo

most of these topics have already been discussed. In fact all of them have. So This is basically just another duplicate thread of EVERYTHING we have been talking about all over again.

*sigh*

Welp weighing in again.

AC are fine, though ened the ac10 and 20 ranges adjusted, maybe even the 5, playtesting would be nice on that. Ammo is too much but hopefully with the advent of CW this wont be an issue.

PPC are actually in a very good place right now. The changes to JJ could put these weapons back into a state people would prefer that complain about the accuracy.

Regarding JJ. oh so very many things.... Bottom line change is needed. Issue is dysning apparently works against hit registration. But it would be nice to see a dysnc in weapons on the downward plung as a mech is falling. Provided they could fix the hit reg issue.

[WarHippy]

Personally I don't see a problem with how PPCs and ACs work, nor do I have a problem with poptarts. That being said I think something should probably be done about the range of ACs. The falloff needs to happen faster.

I will also take Joseph Mallen's idea and say that firing individual weapons should be accurate while firing multiple should cause a cone of fire effect that increases the more weapons you fire at one time. This would do a couple things. First, it would slow the hard pounding hits at range allowing people to get closer to be more effective, and second it would actually give the pinpoint talent and targeting computers a use by letting you shrink the cone.

Edited by WarHippy, 16 January 2014 - 09:26 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Khobai, on 16 January 2014 - 07:49 AM, said:

So give them a different advantage, because pinpoint damage is broken.

Instead of a different advantage, why not just allow Energy weapons the same Pin point damage model. That way, everyone is the same and then those Bad Bad "Pin Pointers" will need to keep moving to. Eazy peazy really.

[Clit Beastwood]

MAKE IT ALL BEIGE

[Capfailboat]

Praetor Shepard, on 15 January 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

Then we can tweak the shake to where having too few Jumps Jets from the max that can be mounted, increases screen shake.

So a CTF-3D has stock set up of 4 Jump Jets, so mounting only one limits jump height to 30 M and has a shake penalty of +75% to a standard value for screen shake.
Mounting two reduces the penalty to +50%, three reduces penalty to +25%.
Mounting the four, there still will be screen shake and no penalty, but it is slightly reduced from where it currently is, since the mech was designed to use that number of Jump Jets.

The same should work for Jenners 1 JJ, 30 M but 80% penalty. 2 JJ 60 M, 60% penalty and so on to the max value.

Mechs that can mount a higher max than their stock loadout of Jump Jets should still get any height bonus like the SDR 5V or VTR-9K, but the penalty for mounting less should be calculated from their stock numbers.

Otherwise, simply prevent weapons from firing when Jump Jets are in use due to the energy draw from the engine.

This is all well and good, but in the current build, shake stops when the JJ stops firing. This is when the player should be firing. If the increased shake completely throws of the reticule as the termination of the JJ's fire cycle, it might help a little, but you will still have the poptarts. Also remember when the JJ shake was much more violent? People ciomplained they were a few shakes short of an epileptic seizure.

[Jez]

We wouldn't be having this discussion if PGI didn't make the stupid decision to allow PPCs to be mounted on any energy hard point. PPCs should have been in a weapon category of its own.

[Damocles69]

Its not the weapons.weapon balance outside of guns that will never ever be balanced (flamer, LBX, MG) is honestly OK. Fine, SRM hit detection is terribad but I digress, it is the jump Jets. These need to be tweak before we all cry nerf. Also, it should be noted that PGI is completely and utterly incapable of making minor balance changes so be aware that if you cry nerf PGI will nerf said weapon system into the ground, beat it up, take its lunch money, and have sex with its mother for good measure.

[Capfailboat]

Jez, on 16 January 2014 - 10:28 AM, said:

We wouldn't be having this discussion if PGI didn't make the stupid decision to allow PPCs to be mounted on any energy hard point. PPCs should have been in a weapon category of its own.

No...just NO. It's an energy weapon canonically it doesn't make any sense otherwise. What would you call the HP anyway
"Special Lightening Generator Hardpoint"?
"Anti-N00b Hardpoint"?
"Special Beam Cannon Hardpoint"?

[Trauglodyte]

Damocles69, on 16 January 2014 - 07:42 AM, said:

OK, this topic has been disscused to death. There are some hard truths that we as a player base need to come to terms with.
PGI WILL NEVER REAMOVE PINPOINT DAMAGE
Your weapons will always hit where you aim. The have said this over and over. That's fine, pinpoint only really becomes a problem when you combine with JJs. Look at all the other mech that can mount ppcs and small boar ACs. An atlas with ppcs and 2 UACs (not scary) a 733C with the same (OMFG I'm going to win all the things) a Battle master with ppcs and ACS (not scary) a victor with the same arrorment (I'm here to kick *** and chew bubble gum... and I'm all out of gum). Any cataphract and the cataphract 3d.

The point I am trying to make is that when ppcs and are in conjunction with each other on mech without jjs they are really not a that great. When combined with jjs they become an issue.

Jump jets are the thing that is out of sack. Their first problem:
WAY TO MUCH BANG FOR YOUR BUCK
For the low investment of 1 JJ your highlander can become an effective pop tart. 1 JJ is all that is ever required to turn mech mounting pinpoint weapons into effective poptarts. That is an investment of .5 tons for mediums, 1 ton for heavies and victors and 2 tons for highlanders. This allows these mech to load up on weapons, armor, ammo, and heatsinks cause these mech to be HIGHLY efficant.

Step one should be to make jump jets apply thrust proportionately according to the number you have. When you start making these mech to take more jjs to lift off the have to scrifce other things.

I say we start here and see what happens

You're absolutely correct. Though, you could still argue that PPCs having a LITTLE splash to make them non-energy equivalents to ACs would be fine. You could also argue that we need to put convergence speed back into the game and that heat should play havoc with convergence time would be damned helpful. If you're running hot, like 90% or so, your arms should shake almost like you're JJing.

But yes, JJs need to get hammered in a hurry of different reasons.

[DocBach]

CapnFaiiboat, on 16 January 2014 - 10:46 AM, said:

No...just NO. It's an energy weapon canonically it doesn't make any sense otherwise. What would you call the HP anyway
"Special Lightening Generator Hardpoint"?
"Anti-N00b Hardpoint"?
"Special Beam Cannon Hardpoint"?

PPC's are energy weapons, but does it make sense that you can pull a .5 ton small laser and replace it with a 7 ton ER PPC, or vice versa?

It'd be like pulling a machine gun off a Humvee and sticking a tank cannon in it and expecting it to work just fine.

[Jez]

CapnFaiiboat, on 16 January 2014 - 10:46 AM, said:

No...just NO. It's an energy weapon canonically it doesn't make any sense otherwise. What would you call the HP anyway
"Special Lightening Generator Hardpoint"?
"Anti-N00b Hardpoint"?
"Special Beam Cannon Hardpoint"?

Who cares what it is called. Call it the "CapnFaiiboat Cannon Hardpoint" if you like...or you know...call it the most obvious thing: "PPC Hardpoint"

And you're wrong about the PPCs being canonically similar to lasers and other energy weapons. Ignoring table-top for the moment. PPCs (along with AC20s and Gauss Rifles) were one of the few weapons that were so large and so powerful that you'd have to build you mech around it. It had to be charged up before firing and there was a risk of detonation if the PPC was damaged while fullly charged. PPC damage was noted for electrical discharge and in some cases scrambling of electronics on the impacted mech. It has also been know to have a kinetic effect upon impact.

PPCs are nothing similar to other energy weapons aside from the fact that there's no kinetic projectile involved, otherwise I maintain that PPCs are really a weapon class of its own.

Edited by Jez, 16 January 2014 - 11:19 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

It'd be like pulling a machine gun off a Humvee and sticking a tank cannon in it and expecting it to work just fine.

Yeah. At the very least we should have small and large hardpoints. Small weapons would be any weapon thats 1 crit slot. Large weapons would be any weapon thats 2 crit slots or more.

So for example, an Awesome might have all large energy hardpoints. But a Stalker would have 1-2 large energy hardpoints and the rest would be small energy hardpoints. So if you wanted to play an assault that could use 3 or more PPCs you would have to choose the Awesome. Assuming of course that adding hardpoint sizes also means ghost heat is removed.

Also, Jagermechs would have 2 small ballistic and 2 large ballistic... so no more x4 AC5 shennanigans. Youd have to use two AC2s and two AC5s, which is what the Jager is supposed to use anyway.

Hardpoint sizes would be very easy to implement and would not only help balance weapon loadouts but would also help differentiate mechs greatly.

Quote

JJs offer great mobility for lights and mediums for sure. To say they dont is just silly. For heavies and assaults it will help you get up a hill that your engine would otherwise make you stop.

JJs definitely need to be more consistent with their downsides. Some mechs like the Spider and Catapult lose 2 weapon hardpoints because of jumpjets. While other mechs like the Jenner and Highlander lose nothing.

Edited by Khobai, 16 January 2014 - 11:23 AM.

[Xyroc]

JJs offer great mobility for lights and mediums for sure. To say they dont is just silly. For heavies and assaults it will help you get up a hill that your engine would otherwise make you stop.

To have a large heat increase would hurt the lights a lot.

Edited by Beliall, 16 January 2014 - 11:15 AM.

[Jez]

I'm a fan of limiting the number of allowable jump by implementing the concept of jump jet fuel and making it a consumable and expandable via module slot. Its just silly to allow heavy and assault mechs have infinite # of jumps. Each weight class should have a reasonable limit to the number of jumps allowed: Assault ~10, Heavy ~15, Mediums~25, Lights~40.

I'd bet we'd see a lot less pop-tarting and more maneuvering by the heavies and assault.

[Mechteric]

Jez, on 16 January 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

I'm a fan of limiting the number of allowable jump by implementing the concept of jump jet fuel and making it a consumable and expandable via module slot. Its just silly to allow heavy and assault mechs have infinite # of jumps. Each weight class should have a reasonable limit to the number of jumps allowed: Assault ~10, Heavy ~15, Mediums~25, Lights~40.

I'd bet we'd see a lot less pop-tarting and more maneuvering by the heavies and assault.

Huh? No, if you limited the number of jumps you have LESS maneuvering. That just simple math.

I'd rather they do like MWLL where the jump jets very quickly burst you into the air, which means you are a much more visible target since you're getting more air time. More air time, means more time for you to hit the jumper before the jumper can hit you.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 16 January 2014 - 12:06 PM.

[lsp]

They shouldn't be trying to desync anything, and no to whatever your suggestions where. Because in the land of robots and spaceships it's totally unthinkable that a pilot could tune their weapons to fire at the same time.

[Coolant]

like the idea of jumpjets weighing more than a minimum 1 ton. In Mercs they were easily 3-5 tons for Assaults. There should be a bigger penalty for using them.

[Co Ward]

Edited by Udachi Kerensky, 16 January 2014 - 12:55 PM.