129 replies to this topic

[Flying Fox 333]

Trashforged, on 17 January 2014 - 12:01 AM, said:

i counter poptarts with a flamer, it actually worked.

LOL, I often wished that flamers would cause ammo explosions in the area where it was focused. So a poptart player would then be vulnerable to lights and mediums which flame their ammo locations, causing them to be legged in no time. That would go somewhere positive towards balancing it.

Poptart loadouts will give you a psychological edge. People rarely mention that as a factor towards the perception of balance, even experienced players will feel affected by their presence.

As far as my opinion on possible solutions. Jump jets currently have different classes for each weight category, which means an different heat amount can be given to each. Lights won't necessarily suffer. In addition, a set amount of fuel should be lost initially after each jump, to stop jump spamming, if you jump you commit to jumping. HSR won't have to work so hard then.

AC's would work better in a stream of fewer projectiles. So:
AC/2: 1 projectile at 2 damage, cooldown 0.5 seconds
AC/5: 2 projectiles at 2.5 damage, cooldown 1.25 seconds
AC/10: 3 projectiles at 3.33 damage, cooldown 2.5 seconds
AC/20: 5 projectiles at 4 damage, cooldown 5 seconds

The only question then is how long the delay is between projectile, which mainly depends on the velocity of the projectile.

Gauss should have no charging mechanism due to its fragility, but will cause a charging penalty (desync) to the PPC's if they are on the same loadout, caused by "disruption".

PPC's should have a bubble spread of damage, like LRM's.

As far as I can tell this will only really affect poptarting mech's. Brawlers, skirmishers, strikers, scouts, juggernauts won't really notice a problem.

What do you guys think?

Edited by Flying Fox 333, 17 January 2014 - 12:43 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

drunkblackstar, on 16 January 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

First of all, it's not the weapons problem. It's normal, that you can do pinpoint dmg, its funny to jump and shoot.

What do you suggest, nerf everything the ground, so all weapons would become equally ineffective? Make JJ useless? What fun would it be? I shoot well, I like to shoot and destroy the part which I aim at. I dont't want to pointlessly fire at each other no matter what weapon I use. I like to feel the difference.

The problem is not the weapon. If there is any problem at all is absence of tonnage limits and tonnage balance. If 4 men's team would be limited by, lets say, 250 or 270 tonns, you won't see 4 coordinated high level hgn 733c. Even if they take 2, the other 2 would be lights. It will solve the problem automatically.

So, lets implement tonnage limits first and talk weapons balance second. IMHO, except pulse lasers everything is more or less balanced.

I an see pin point damage with a single weapon. but start adding more and more and the accuracy should drop.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 17 January 2014 - 05:23 AM.

[Gladewolf]

Stop the weapon nerfs, instead, lower the heat cost for energy weapons a tad and let's see what that does. Not enough? lower it a little more...still not good? reduce the burn time a tad...and once everyone starts taking the autocannons off and starts putting on large lasers instead...back off the buffs just a tad so that people feel they need to make an honest choice. Once energy weapons are at a better balance point...do the same with srms...as for jump jets? Give all mechs the option of mounting them...that's about the only real problem they have. We need small measurable changes, not grand sweeping epic changes....that just leave us with some brand new meta OP broken thingy.

[Warge]

Goose, on 15 January 2014 - 08:02 PM, said:

'Cause they do nice clots of damage in exchange for being heavy.

Having all the direct-fire weapons look and feel the same would be boring …

No. Are lasers (SL, ML, LL) boring weapon?
Gauss-rifle - single-shot weapon. ACs - must be short-burst weapons.

[Joseph Mallan]

Warge, on 17 January 2014 - 06:48 AM, said:

No. Are lasers (SL, ML, LL) boring weapon?
Gauss-rifle - single-shot weapon. ACs - must be short-burst weapons.

Why would a 8" round NEED to be a short burst weapon?

Goose, on 15 January 2014 - 08:02 PM, said:

'Cause they do nice clots of damage in exchange for being heavy.

Having all the direct-fire weapons look and feel the same would be boring …

This exactly. I have a mix of weapons as often as possible. Cause each does something different.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 17 January 2014 - 07:33 AM.

[AaronWolf]

Buff lasers some.

Make brawler weapons worthy of being used in brawls to level the field against snipers.

More support options.

Weapon buff skills.

Chassis bonus for specific purposes. But reduce max armor/base stats in accordance with bonus in hand, must be relative to the mechs original role.

You will see this meta change quite a bit after that I think.

[Joseph Mallan]

Make stuff better so we want to use it more often. Why don't others think this way?

[Warge]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 January 2014 - 07:01 AM, said:

Why would a 8" round NEED to be a short burst weapon?

For balance reasons (2*AC/20 or 3*AC/10 or any other pinpont-high-damage-single-shot-[censored] and also Clans are coming), for fun (I like dakka-dakka-dakka, not single-shot boom!).
As for reality. Atlas as realistic war machine? Are you serious?

[Joseph Mallan]

Warge, on 17 January 2014 - 08:47 AM, said:

For balance reasons (2*AC/20 or 3*AC/10 or any other pinpont-high-damage-single-shot-[censored] and also Clans are coming), for fun (I like dakka-dakka-dakka, not single-shot boom!).
As for reality. Atlas as realistic war machine? Are you serious?

Sorry but fun to me is hitting you with a 8" slug and watching you dissolve. It just doesn't get better than that. Pin point damage I could care less about. it can go away forever as far as I care. But my Big Honkin Cannon better put a big honkin hole in your ride if I hit!

[MustrumRidcully]

Goose, on 15 January 2014 - 06:02 PM, said:

Not bad, but I think unfeathered landings should involve a lot of damage … And not just to the legs, nether: Fall down onto your face.

Dragon Bowl yourself? Yes.

I am not sure how important falling over when you're save behind cover actually is, but it might be a thing to do.

Fall damage scaling with the mech weight would generally be a good idea, and actually has a basis in reality - an elephant falling down from 4m has more trouble than a human has more trouble than a cat.

But I think the most important thing to address for jump sniping is the crosshair stability - it needs to be oscillating even when the jump jets are turned off. It might be enough to just make the stabilization occur slowly (so if you really jump very high and drop, you can still fire stably).

While raising the heat jump jets generate might also hurt pop tarts,one also has to consider other uses of jump jets and if they wouldn'T be too harshly penalized that way.

[Warge]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 January 2014 - 08:50 AM, said:

Sorry but fun to me is hitting you with a 8" slug and watching you dissolve.

So that's why u got "ghost heat", "ghost delay". Enjoy it.

[Joseph Mallan]

MustrumRidcully, on 17 January 2014 - 09:05 AM, said:

I am not sure how important falling over when you're save behind cover actually is, but it might be a thing to do.

Fall damage scaling with the mech weight would generally be a good idea, and actually has a basis in reality - an elephant falling down from 4m has more trouble than a human has more trouble than a cat.

But I think the most important thing to address for jump sniping is the crosshair stability - it needs to be oscillating even when the jump jets are turned off. It might be enough to just make the stabilization occur slowly (so if you really jump very high and drop, you can still fire stably).

While raising the heat jump jets generate might also hurt pop tarts,one also has to consider other uses of jump jets and if they wouldn'T be too harshly penalized that way.

Falling damage is multiplied by distance falling. so If say a Highlander Jump up 90M an then freefalls they would take 3x the damage of just falling over!

Warge, on 17 January 2014 - 09:11 AM, said:

So that's why u got "ghost heat", "ghost delay". Enjoy it.

Ghost heat has affected one of my mechs, the delay on a Gauss works as a minimum range mechanic but not for a Sniper's weapon. So we need to truly define what a Gauss is. All the BRASS stuff is what I do before I take the shot. I n't need the game to "simulate" it!
It also slowed down your dissolving and F'ed up MY fun!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 17 January 2014 - 09:16 AM.

[Warge]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 January 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

the delay on a Gauss works as a minimum range mechanic

Really? lol

[Joseph Mallan]

Warge, on 17 January 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

Really? lol

If your reflexes are a bit slow it does become tougher to hit a target up close, so yes it does work for that purpose. You may be a 1 Gunner but as a 3 gunner I miss a bit more.

[wanderer]

MustrumRidcully, on 17 January 2014 - 09:05 AM, said:

But I think the most important thing to address for jump sniping is the crosshair stability - it needs to be oscillating even when the jump jets are turned off. It might be enough to just make the stabilization occur slowly (so if you really jump very high and drop, you can still fire stably).

I'm surprised that being HIT doesn't cause more stability problems when airborne. You're already a multi-ton brick being held up by brute force. What on earth is keeping you steady when someone tackles you with a Gauss slug up there?

[Joseph Mallan]

wanderer, on 17 January 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

I'm surprised that being HIT doesn't cause more stability problems when airborne. You're already a multi-ton brick being held up by brute force. What on earth is keeping you steady when someone tackles you with a Gauss slug up there?

Pixie Dust?

[LastPaladin]

Nerf, nerf, nerf, and nerf some more is all I'm hearing on this thread. Swinging the nerfbat around blindly is what got us into this stale meta, and I don't think more nerfing is going to get us out of it.

[darkchylde]

LastPaladin, on 17 January 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

Nerf, nerf, nerf, and nerf some more is all I'm hearing on this thread. Swinging the nerfbat around blindly is what got us into this stale meta, and I don't think more nerfing is going to get us out of it.

The blame falls on the devs for that - they choose to nerf instead of buff.

[Tastian]

I love reading fan fiction.

There are some really good ideas in here. I especially agree with jump jets generating more heat and having a much less impact with only 1 jump jet and a noticeable step up with each added jump jet. I even like the minimum 3 jump jet idea.

I've also read many many good posts about how to end the reign of acs, treat ppcs, ghost heat, and lasers. I am, however, convinced that PGI doesn't read these posts and will just do what they do.

[LastPaladin]

darkchylde, on 17 January 2014 - 11:08 AM, said:

The blame falls on the devs for that - they choose to nerf instead of buff.

A bit, sure, but they were nerfing in response to player demands, like this thread.