129 replies to this topic

[Capfailboat]

DocBach, on 16 January 2014 - 11:09 AM, said:

PPC's are energy weapons, but does it make sense that you can pull a .5 ton small laser and replace it with a 7 ton ER PPC, or vice versa?

It'd be like pulling a machine gun off a Humvee and sticking a tank cannon in it and expecting it to work just fine.

https://yourlogicalf...s.com/anecdotal


Seriously, you are comparing a fictional multi-tonned giant robot to a real-life Humvee. HAHA! If you want to make the case for hardpoint size restrictions, be my guest. Remember thought that PGI has stated many times that they will not restrict hardpoint sized because it limits customization. If you think the limited number of commly used chassis with the FoTM builds are bad now, imagine if there were actually sized hardpoints. We'd only see one type of mech in each weight class.

[DocBach]

Right, and in this fictional universe with multi-ton robots, the storyline and fluff says pulling off a .5 ton small laser for a 7 ton ER PPC is nearly impossible, prohibitively expensive and comes with a whole host of problems.

Players will always gravitate towards whatever is the most powerful - but the ability to swap out small weapons for death cannons resulted in certain meta's rising to prominence in the first place, and has already obsoleted the function of Omnimechs.

[Mechteric]

- Make PPCs do slightly less direct damage, instead splashes a bit (like in MWLL)
- Make AC's DPS weapons (like in the Mechwarrior Reboot trailer where the AC20 fires about every 0.5 seconds, with appropriate decrease in damage per shot and ammo per ton)
- Make SRMs work properly (bring back some brawlers)


These things three are all that are needed! Well I'd also like to see jump jets rocket boost you faster (also like in MWLL), since I think its the slow floatiness of them that also caters to easier jump sniping. The faster jump jet boosts make jump jets a more viable brawl maneuver as well (like in MWLL).

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 16 January 2014 - 01:36 PM.

[wanderer]

Khobai, on 16 January 2014 - 07:49 AM, said:

So give them a different advantage, because pinpoint damage is broken.

This. Weapons that deliver pinpoint damage without some kind of drawback have been a problem since closed beta, and vast amounts of nerf have been applied to fix it, only to have whatever wasn't nerfed become the new weapons of choice. Lasers were hitscan, pinpoint weapons in MW before this. Now they have the "burn" mechanic instead. Something similar needs to be done with autocannons, and in turn we can have a single "AC" that performs differently depending on the chassis, just like we have missile launchers do.

'Mech built to handle a smaller AC but mounting a 20? Long burst of shells, better odds of hitting, lower odds of large amounts of damage to a single point. Hunchback with an AC/5 instead of the 20? Shorter burst, more focused damage but less likely to land a partial hit.

Holy {Scrap}, we end up with weapon diversity!

[wanderer]

DocBach, on 16 January 2014 - 01:22 PM, said:

Right, and in this fictional universe with multi-ton robots, the storyline and fluff says pulling off a .5 ton small laser for a 7 ton ER PPC is nearly impossible, prohibitively expensive and comes with a whole host of problems.

Players will always gravitate towards whatever is the most powerful - but the ability to swap out small weapons for death cannons resulted in certain meta's rising to prominence in the first place, and has already obsoleted the function of Omnimechs.

Actually, that whole "Swap a small laser out for a PPC" is a field-capable refit, by tabletop rules. Now, replacing a 'Mech chassis with Endosteel, THAT was a full factory job...since you had to strip the 'Mech down and reassemble it.

[Trauglodyte]

PPC needs a bit of splash like 50/50 or a small area of effect. ACs, though, are fine firing like they do. I'd love for them to be burst fire but I don't know if PGI or the community would go for it. That being said, if I get rocked by being hit by an AC, why isn't the firing mech rocked equally, or a bit less, for doing the same? A1s and Paladins all rock like a **** when they fire.

[Clit Beastwood]

You all realize that nerfing jumpjets and weapons and mechs isn't going to make you any better, right? Only practice is going to do that.

[DocBach]

wanderer, on 16 January 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

Actually, that whole "Swap a small laser out for a PPC" is a field-capable refit, by tabletop rules. Now, replacing a 'Mech chassis with Endosteel, THAT was a full factory job...since you had to strip the 'Mech down and reassemble it.

Actually, field refits are limited to replacing weapons that take either the same amount of critical slots or less.

[Mystere]

CapnFaiiboat, on 16 January 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

People ciomplained they were a few shakes short of an epileptic seizure.

I don't know anything about epileptic seizures, but I can say without a doubt that almost regurgitating your last meal while playing is not something I'd like to experience again.

Edited by Mystere, 16 January 2014 - 02:47 PM.

[catspider]

I see multiple issues discussed here, and it is important to keep them separate:


1. Jumpets and making them a skill based ability

Jumpjets definitely need attention. As discussed they make jump sniping way too easy and a no-brainer since they allow you deliver damage with low to no consequence.
But what if they did have a consequence? Personally I feel that adding heat to jumpjet use would be a good tradeoff. Theoretically a mech has a limited use of jumpjet fuel, and using it should cause heat. In fact jumpjet use should cause a set amount of heat, dictated by the amount of fuel used.

- Less jumpjets should mean a longer burn, less acceleration and low hps generation as you are going through your fuel slowly.

- More jumpets would mean a shorter burn, greater acceleration, high hps as you are going through your fuel quickly.

If heat, and a lot of it was generated when jumping this would mean jumpjets are now a tradeoff. You will get mobility, intel if peeking over a hill and could even get one alpha off. Your heat would be high and possibly even at the shutdown point, so a second alpha would take much longer to deliver. This would apply evenly to all jumpjet mechs, alpha strikers or scouts, and would introduce the need for jumpjets to be used with skill, you can either jump, shoot, or do both but risk shutdown on landing.


2. PPCs and their alpha damage

PPCs are annoying and one can mount multiple them on a mech. Personally I am onboard with the idea of making PPCs do spread damage rather than pinpoint, which would make sense given the type of weapon. Boating would be less of an issue as well since the PPC is heavy and it does generate a lot of heat.


3. Pinpoint damage in general

As long as you have pinpoint damage weapons you will have alpha strikers, however ACs alone are not that big of a deal if not paired up with PPCs. So if PPCs were not doing pinpoint damage, then pairing them with ACs would not be that big of a deal. You have to keep pinpoint damage still and ACs are great for that. They do have drawbacks, if that may be range, ammo, projectile speeds and heat. Pairs of AC20s are going to still be an issue, but they are only effective up close. If you let a twin AC20 Jaeger get close to you, you should suffer for that mistake.

The current issue is still the meta AC+PPC since it can do pinpoint damage far and allow the AC20 boats to get close with great protection. Spreading spot damage from PPCs and adding Jumpet heat would alleviate this greatly, and increase the skill level to combine these weapons.


My 2 cents....

Edited by catspider, 16 January 2014 - 03:07 PM.

[Mystere]

catspider, on 16 January 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

I see multiple issues discussed here, and it is important to keep them separate:

1. Think of the light mechs.

2. Awesomes are supposed to be one of the most feared Battlemechs because their awesomeness derives from their ability to boat PPCs. Yet here in MWO, you'll melt like butter if you do so. And you want to gimp even more those who bother to try anyway?

3. No comment other than the possibility of saying hello to BallisticWarriorOnline..

[nemesis271989]

Ryoken, on 15 January 2014 - 05:52 PM, said:

In the current meta it is a lot of synced PPC&ACs for several reasons. Both weapons do deliver pinpoint damage. Similar projectile speed (exsp. AC5&PPC). And in case of the AC the extreme DPS.

So as it has been discussed in the NGNG Stream (http://www.nogutsnog...8c42d65e7d4e577) to desync those two weapons, as they did desync the Gaussrifle with its charging mechanism.

Autocannons are a tad out of line in my opinion. As soon as you have ballistic hardpoints on a mech, it is put ACs on it ftw. And as soon as you put ACs on there the damage per match gets up to the roof. Therefore they should be looked at first when it comes to rebalancing/desyncing. One suggestion would be to change ACs from making pinpoint damage with one projectile into firing a burst of projectiles with each shot and therefore make them spead damage.

PPCs nowadays work fine according to my observations. (But er-ppcs could need some love as they are hardly seen because of the heat problems) Never the less one way to also desync the PPC from the powerfull pinpoint-syncspeed-combo that rules the current meta could be to derive the PPCs of their pinpoint damage as well. For example they could do some splash damage to adjecent locations as the particle containing bubble splashes on the enemy mech armor. Like 7 damage to the hit location and splitt the remaining 3 points of damage to adjecent locations.

Then there are jump jets that need another look to. As it is jump jets do not provide an additional way of mobility but also and very much an additional way of fighting - jumpsniping.

Concerning balancing Jumpjets and heat I just wanted to add that in TT, even if you jump only one hex, the minimum heat generated is 3! not 1! So maybe heat may be some tool of adjustment.

Also rules for building mechs could be changed. As it stands now most mechs only mount one jumpjet to minmax its use. So maybe also giving a minimum of 3 jumpjets may be a way to tool around.

I also like the ideas of recharge and precharge time discussed, or even more JJ-shake.

So what do you guys think? And please try to be polite and constructive, insults and capslock do not bring us any further.

Cheers, Ryo

Scatter on Auto-cannons?

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

catspider, on 16 January 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

2. PPCs and their alpha damage

PPCs are annoying and one can mount multiple them on a mech. Personally I am onboard with the idea of making PPCs do spread damage rather than pinpoint, which would make sense given the type of weapon. Boating would be less of an issue as well since the PPC is heavy and it does generate a lot of heat.


3. Pinpoint damage in general

As long as you have pinpoint damage weapons you will have alpha strikers, however ACs alone are not that big of a deal if not paired up with PPCs. So if PPCs were not doing pinpoint damage, then pairing them with ACs would not be that big of a deal. You have to keep pinpoint damage still and ACs are great for that. They do have drawbacks, if that may be range, ammo, projectile speeds and heat. Pairs of AC20s are going to still be an issue, but they are only effective up close. If you let a twin AC20 Jaeger get close to you, you should suffer for that mistake.

The current issue is still the meta AC+PPC since it can do pinpoint damage far and allow the AC20 boats to get close with great protection. Spreading spot damage from PPCs and adding Jumpet heat would alleviate this greatly, and increase the skill level to combine these weapons.


My 2 cents....

Problem with PPC (and ER PPC) spreading damage is that it should still be worth taking. For 7 tons, 3 crits and 10 (or 15) heat, it has to do alot, not to forget the minimum range of 90m. Let's say the damage does spread... Now we have very heavy and very hot energy weapon that spreads it's damage. This means that also the heat has to be reduced on par with large laser. IMHO it is not balancing to nerf the **** out of a certain weapon.

If you have run 3 PPC's, you know the high price you pay for higher pinpoint alpha with ghost heat. Same thing with 2 ER PPC. Heat management needs alot of attention and you just can not spam those alpha strikes, with the exception of assault mech stuffed full of DHS, and even then you are forced to put an XL engine. I don't think PPC is the problem.

[Skyfaller]

Ryoken, on 15 January 2014 - 05:52 PM, said:

One suggestion would be to change ACs from making pinpoint damage with one projectile into firing a burst of projectiles with each shot and therefore make them spead damage.

...

Concerning balancing Jumpjets and heat I just wanted to add that in TT, even if you jump only one hex, the minimum heat generated is 3! not 1! So maybe heat may be some tool of adjustment.

...

Also rules for building mechs could be changed. As it stands now most mechs only mount one jumpjet to minmax its use. So maybe also giving a minimum of 3 jumpjets may be a way to tool around.

I've been suggesting the AC change to burst fire for a very,very long time. PPC's can be changed from pinpoint damage to 'grenade' damage as you mention: 60% of its damage on impact location and the remaining 40% as 'splash' to other armor locations.

Jumpjet heat would screw scout light mechs more than it would penalize poptarts.

You are right about 1 jet being all thats needed for poptarts... so how about focusing on that instead as a solution?

Make jets generate a lot of heat on the initial up-thrust. This means the first second of jet use (after that it switches to jet fuel). Say, 40% heat AND that heat penalty is applied every 3 seconds the jets are active. Regardless of how many heatsinks you have.

However, the more jumpjets you equip the less heat is produced. Say, 5% heat reduced per Jet. Also, each jet equipped reduce the fuel consumption of jet fuel (more on this below), each jet equipped will increase the strength of the initial up-thrust. Each jet equipped increases fuel recovery speed. (more on this below)

Finally, default jet fuel consumption should be increased by 20%, default jet fuel recovery rate needs to be lowered by 60% and initial thrust strength needs to be lowered by 50% (using an atlas as height indicator: 1 jet wont lift you above ankle height in the 1 second thrust, 2 jets gets you halfway to the knee, 3 jets gets you to the knee, 4 jets gets you hip-high and so forth till 8 jets = head high).

This would make an 8-jet mech generate no heat on the initial thrust (or in the 3-second jet active 'check' period). It makes jets be more fuel efficient the more jets you have (regardless of if you have less or more than 8) and recover jet fuel faster (because at 8 jets it recovers it at the current jet fuel recovery rate).


What this will do: It makes energy and ballistic based pop-tarting by mechs with less than 8 jets be non-sustainable. A victor with 6 jets is the heaviest mech I can think of that can fire a Gauss (or AC20) and 2 PPCs in poptart configuration. A victor wanting to poptart, even if he equips all 6 jets has the following issue:

Initial thrust is decent enough to raise him above an obstacle but he still generates 10% heat by tapping the jets and will have only enough thrust to raise itself barely chest high to an atlas... which means he is only poptarting from very low cover (he is vulnerable to LRMs there)... and if he wants to get HIGHER to fire his poptart he has to thrust with 6 jets only for 2 or more seconds to clear a higher cover and get hit by another 10% heat penalty...and he also suffers from lower jet fuel consumption and lower fuel recovery rate than the current default.

Essentially, this Victor with 6 jets wanting to poptart from behind LRM-cover high terrain would suffer a minimum of 20% heat penalty (it will be airborne for 6 seconds), run out of fuel at the top (for the fuel consumption is not at neutral) and have to wait longer for his fuel to recover.

Mechs with 4 or less jets will not be able to poptart that much...and mechs with 8 or more jets become heat neutral and get jet fuel/performance benefits which befits their roles as scouts (these are usually the lightest armed mechs). Lights with less than 8 jets have almost as much firepower as a medium mech (aka Jenner!) hence they do have some heat penalty to be jetting around.

[Screech]

Put a knockdown on ballistics(except MGs) when in the air and require jump jets to be used while landing to avoid damage. Also fix landings when using jump jets so they don't cause you to stall for 1/2 sec on landing as it is lame as hell.

Not that I care that much about pop-tarts but I do want jump jets fixed so using them properly reaps greater rewards.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

CapnFaiiboat, on 16 January 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

This is all well and good, but in the current build, shake stops when the JJ stops firing. This is when the player should be firing. If the increased shake completely throws of the reticule as the termination of the JJ's fire cycle, it might help a little, but you will still have the poptarts. Also remember when the JJ shake was much more violent? People ciomplained they were a few shakes short of an epileptic seizure.

Yeah, the main idea was to try to require running at least the stock number of Jump Jets to get solid performance when doing that as more of a trade-off. Not completely removing the ability to do that, since shooting like that while in the air is an Advanced maneuver from BT rules that I've read, and it's tricky enough hitting a moving target in MWO, even if it gets annoying every now and then going against poptarts.

So for example, with Highlanders, that would require at least 3 Crits and 6 Tons to Jump Jets, to be able to do that instead of only needing 1 Crit and 2 Tons. With Victors, that would require 4 Crits and 4 Tons, the same with Cataphracts and so on just to make it more of a trade-off compared to mechs that don't use Jump Jets.

[wanderer]

DocBach, on 16 January 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

Actually, field refits are limited to replacing weapons that take either the same amount of critical slots or less.

Class C or less can be done in a Dropship bay/garage and don't require factory-level refits- ergo, refit in the field. Anything that's not a factory rebuild, though there's plenty of that level in MWO.

[DeathlyEyes]

Poptarting keeps some competitive edge to the game. This game would loose a huge segment of the population if it was just everyone standing out in the open trading shots. It takes much more skill to dip and doge in and out of cover than to just sitting and shooting in the open. This game would never get a competitive player base like league of legends because there would be little skill. The biggest issue right now is that one of the best counter poptart weapons was ruined in an attempt for people to eliminate jump sniping. By adding charge time to the gauss rifle it is now next to impossible to actually counter snipe a good pop sniper with the gauss rifle. Meanwhile I am virtually unaffected by the nerf. Lowering laser duration by a good amount and removing the gauss rifle nerf would make a good step in leveling the playing field. Though poptarting will likely always be the superior way to play the game. There are counters to it. The biggest key is working together. most people poptarting are working together and have that advantage as well.

[darkchylde]

The so called thinking man shooter has been replaced by Call of MechWarrior. There is a reason why JJ's generate heat and make firing more difficult in mechwarrior. However, in this game it's clearly the opposite.

[Ghostchips Condensate I and II]

i counter poptarts with a flamer, it actually worked.