161 replies to this topic

[Amsro]

Mawai, on 16 January 2014 - 08:01 PM, said:

Wow .. I am not sure if the folks on either side of this argument really get it.

MWO needs to support variable sized groups AND it needs to support the solo player experience. End of story. Losing players from either category in large numbers will hit the MWO revenues no matter which way you look at it.

Large group players have had the 12 man queue to play with. Small group players have had the 4-man group. The only groups affected are 5 to 11 players. Back in 8 v 8 ... it was obvious when you were wiped by an 8-man pre-made. It also wasn't much fun and the same arguments were exchanged on the forums.

The key in this case will be the matchmaker .. one can pray they get it right ... but if done properly then an N-man group should be opposed by a group with N+/-1.

However, tonnage limits may be be a problem when dealing with less than 12 man groups unless a tonnage limit is enforced on any size of team when it is formed. The alternatives would involve forcing folks to swap mechs after the team is formed but before the drop until their team is the correct weight but how they can force folks to change mechs I don't know.

Perhaps they will impose a tonnage limit for EVERY size of group formed ... N * 50 tons for example ... thus all 4 man groups would have a 200 ton limit ... 2 victors with 2 locusts!

It will be interesting to see what PGI does ... but whatever it is I hope that it does not further alienate the remaining MWO players on either side of this discussion.

This is where people are misguided, by supporting variable sized groups (all under the tonnage limits) you will increase the single player experience by having cohesive groups on both teams.

It won't play any different then the current 4 man drops apart from the groups possibly being bigger. Either way the group size will be matched closely, expect a 12 man to play vs an 11 man + 1.

The PUG stomping you are referring to was pre Elo day's, unless of course that does nothing.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Roadbeer, on 16 January 2014 - 07:35 PM, said:

The 500+ active members of www.house-marik.net would beg to differ with your assessment. I'm sure the other houses and merc corps feel the same.

Maybe...but it is still just opinions. Plus I doubt you ran a poll. Much like "news" on facebook, until I see some proof, I just cannot take people at their word anymore on things they like to propose are facts, such as "most people left this game due to the 4man limit." It's safer to say most people left in a nerd rage over any number of balance, 3pv, coolant or lack of content issues.....this item would have to wait in line probably. But again, just an opinion.

I still think my suggestion is the optimal solution. Thus solo-artists can decide which of the queues they wish to subject themselves to...I'm pugging right now. If such queues existed I'd choose the 7-12, simply because I suspect with so many in a group on each side, I think it would be easier to follow along with what they are doing without VoIP than what we see in current open matches, but that's just me.

[Mawai]

Amsro, on 16 January 2014 - 08:11 PM, said:

This is where people are misguided, by supporting variable sized groups (all under the tonnage limits) you will increase the single player experience by having cohesive groups on both teams.

It won't play any different then the current 4 man drops apart from the groups possibly being bigger. Either way the group size will be matched closely, expect a 12 man to play vs an 11 man + 1.

The PUG stomping you are referring to was pre Elo day's, unless of course that does nothing.

Given the problems the current matchmaker appears to have with balancing pre-mades on both sides ... I dont have as much confidence as I should that PGI will get it correct.

Groups should be matched to other groups +/-1 and both should be conforming to tonnage limits ... but we will see what actually happens since PGI has a bad habit of doing what takes the least work ... which in this case would involve matching 12 man organized teams against whoever is available ... which would not work out well.

Edited by Mawai, 16 January 2014 - 08:16 PM.

[CrashieJ]

Axeman1, on 16 January 2014 - 06:37 PM, said:

@Roadbeer

Do you honestly not realize that if PGI allows 8+ premade drops again it will be the final blow to this game? You claim that more people have quit because they aren't able to group up with more than 3 other players at a time (Which isn't even true because of sync drops that aren't hard to perform) but I'd put money on more people having quit after getting pugstomped by 8+ premades for days way back when that was a thing. MMO's currency generation is always catered towards new players (Where most of their money will come from) not current ones. This game has a fleeting player base as-is, if 8+ man drops come back all you're going to have is a handful of die hard battletech fans duking it out until PGI runs out of money and shuts everything down.

1. Pick up Teamspeak 3

2. go to:

Comstar Relay North America (Comstar NA)
Available Slots: 512 Man TS3 server
Address: na1.mech-connect.net
Password: WordofBlake

or:

Comstar Relay Europe (Comstar EU)
Available Slots: 512 Man TS3 server
Address: eu1.mech-connect.net
Password: hG5!4Dg*

3. Actually play in this Squad-based Team-play game. And maybe make some new friends in the Process.

Teamwork is no OP, it's Smart.

[Kenyon Burguess]

every drop you get into now has 1-3 teamspeak backed groups in it, and it can be a painful experience but once tonnage drops are in those premades will be handicapped. no more all lights. no more all heavies. just a balanced mix

[mekabuser]

Nick Drezary, on 16 January 2014 - 03:35 PM, said:

Free group size and weight limits are steps in right direction

I assume MM will try to mach premade vs premade and fill empty space with pugs, like TeamA 10 premaders+2 pugs, Team B 9 premaders+ 3 pugs

And don't act like it is the end of the world: current system screws small merc corps/player groups that want to have fun together, but can't get all 12 players together every day, but roflstomps happen as often as they were. So it spoils game for one group of players, but not fixes it for the other one. No fun allowed.

this is a fact. The way groups were implemented via the MM when there were 8 mans resulted in a large number of pugstomps. THats a fact
this is also a fact. There is a significant percentage of groups that "ENJOY" pugstomping. THe only counter to that is the matchmaker ensuring what you outlined happens. If we get the same nonsense we had back when 8 mans would just dominate<or 7 mans or whatnot> you will Kill off half the guys that have joined this game since groups went to 4 man.

I completely understand the need for groups of any size. The MM NEEDS to work properly.. The ready screen also NEEDS to show who dropped together so there is evidence as to what happened when the smoke cleared. No one is going to complain if one team had 8 premade and the other 6. But if we start seeing things like 9 on one side and 3 on the other.. well thats a serious problem because the communication tools in game for pugs<command> etc are woefully incomplete.

comms rose? whatever happened to that >?

It will be quite evident to me what the deal is when the group limit is lifted.
since 12 man a side, the a large majority of my assault matches were decent, close, or close enough games. A very large percentage of my skirmish matches have been super close, down to the wire.
we will see.

[Lukoi Banacek]

mekabuser, on 16 January 2014 - 08:24 PM, said:

The MM NEEDS to work properly..

Quoted for truth.

[Axeman1]

@gavilatius

I've been in groups before, back when you could get 12 people together, was fun for maybe a day or two but got boring after that. Pug stomping isn't nearly as fun as solo que and not nearly as quick either. The fact I choose not to group has no bearing on the fact that bringing back 8 man+ drops facing off against pugs will outright destroy this game.

[Gladewolf]

Does the OP have the rest of that conversation chain....it looks different from the last one that I saw in that it looks like a different part of the same conversation...it would be good to discuss this in proper context and I don't recall being concerned about this the first time I saw it.

[Bromineberry]

Oh boy, I hope, tha this is just a cruel, cruel joke. I remember exactly how "fun" it was, back in the time when premades had no limit on their number. 8man premades vs. pugs was quite usual. 20 losses for 1 win also. The moment this comes reality in one of the patches, I start making a statstic about it again, like back then. Or I'll maybe simply stop playing, lol.

The only thing that will happen is, that pugs get stomped hard. Very hard. This will drive new players away quite quickly. And, some people can argue all day, but there are LOADS of people who simply enjoy pugstomping. Why? Because a real challange, pff, who needs that if you can club a baby seal to death, right?

The argument that it is a "teamgame" so a pugger has no right is just rubbish. CS was a Teamgame, TFC/TF2 was a teamgame, BF is a teamgame...and in none of these games I had the problem of simply joining a server and having fun. Why? Because it was very rare, that one team was made only of clan members, and the other was not. And even if so: If the unbalance was too bad between teams, one could simply switch servers. In MWO? Not so much...
If MWO is a "teamgame", why is there a solo queue? Where are the features, that support teamplay? Like a normal chat channel? Or a quick-call communication menue? Or VOIP?
For me as a pugger, it's always fun to watch "pro premade" videos on YT. I mean, I'm shivering in fear, just by thinking about the amount of skill it takes, to say something like "Focus A", "Lights at base", "C is nearly cored". I don't argue that good premades, who play against other good premades show more teamwork. But for pug-stomping, these simply commands + mechs, that are made for each other guarantee pugstomps, i.e. wins.

Well, whatever. ggclose, I guess?

Edit: As long as THE SAME AMOUNT on premades is on each team, I DONT CARE. If I'm put together iwth an 11man premade to fight another 11man premade+1 solo player, I'm fine with it. But this won't happen. It will be something like 12 man premade vs. 4man premade +8 solo players (two of them in trial mechs).

Edited by Bromineberry, 16 January 2014 - 08:40 PM.

[Sephlock]

Roadbeer, on 16 January 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

Sorry, but the ability to play with as many of my friends as possible trumps the hurt feelings of those who can't be bothered to form a group.

It may be cold, but the removal of min/max group forming has driven more people from this game than any other misstep since inception.

Also, the forum needs its boogeyman back!

[Deathlike]

To the guy that suggested 12-man queues...

The number of teams that are on the queue daily average less than the number of fingers and toes you can count on. This is not a fact, but my observance having been in that queue in limited play.

So, don't even bother tracking... it's virtually a ghost town there.

This game, for good or bad, has made teamwork mandatory unlike the other games. You cannot insta-gib mechs (although arty+airstrikes come pretty close), you can't respawn (yet), and you can't always cap every freaking match (well, unless you play Conquest a lot) and expect a win.

That is practically the only thing that separates this game from the others.

The only issue in ELO/skill gaps is that the lack of tutorials do not address stuff that we been hounding PGI to provide often, but goes unheard. I don't honestly know what you can do about that OTHER than learning through joining a group (whether by clan/groups/whatever, or by friends that know better). That's the heart of the matter.

I understand wanting to be solo, but solo PUGing only gets you so far... in terms of experience AND skill. There's no such thing as a "golden solo PUG" where they automagically win a game. It simply does not work like that. You can get away with this in other games... just not MWO.

Edited by Deathlike, 16 January 2014 - 08:45 PM.

[RAM]

Jun

[Roland]

Sephlock, on 16 January 2014 - 08:35 PM, said:

Also, the forum needs its boogeyman back!

You mean the one that never left?

When they instituted the nonsensical 4 man limit, there was absolutely no reduction in the number of people complaining about how they lost due to premades beating them with hax to the max.

The 4 man limit achieved absolutely none of its intended goals, and drive away thousands of players.

[WarZ]

Roadbeer, on 16 January 2014 - 04:34 PM, said:

Not seeing the downside to an end of bads.

Speaking as someone in the highest elo tier ...

I cant say I remember seeing you in a match with me, ummm, ever ? Unless you were maybe one of those nobody fillers that does sub 100 damage and I therefore never notice ?

That does not put you in the "good" camp. You sit with the "bads" ...

Odd statement from you then.

I'm thoroughly amazed at how many players think they are "good not bad", when they are in fact as bad any of the "bads" they rail against.

Just...amazing.

Edited by WarZ, 16 January 2014 - 09:18 PM.

[Otto Cannon]

It'll be interesting to see how this works out.

The old 8 man pugstomp days were so bad because of how the MM worked back then, it matched weight classes and the chances of two premades having exactly the same number of each class were almost nil. That's why it actively kept groups from fighting each other by taking a premade and making up the same mech assortment for the other team from random pugs.

That won't be the case this time, so it should at least tend to put groups on both teams.

Whether that fact combined with Elo will make the huge difference some people think it will remains to be seen though. I'm not sure if there are enough players dropping at any given time for Elo to take full effect and a full 12 man group will still have an advantage over any other mix of groups and pugs.

My personal prediction would be that the changes will make life harder for pugs and small groups, but not as bad as the original 8 man days. I'm guessing that putting together 12 player groups will suddenly become miraculously easier again now that the enemy probably won't be another equal team.

[Sherida]

I will always prefer to be in a 3 man premade of very good players than in a 12 man of bad players. Yes comms do give an edge, but there are a lot more numbers to take into account than how many people are together in comms. It's something you can see all day in the actual 12 mans, you can face some very competitive teams, and then you face some pickup teams. And you go from wining 12-0 to loosing 2-12.

Those just saying it will be a pugstomp are missing the whole picture. Right now one match can be a 12-0 and next one be 0-12, that's becasue of elo. That was not implemented before and ensures to a certain point matches are fair. Is it perfect, no, but i am sure as someone who has been here since OB, it will at least be as it is right now.

Onlything i hope is that they prepare the matchmaker in such way that only premades are limited by weight, and solo players not, because that is the only way to ensure elo can work together with weight limits.

Have fun, that's the point of the game isn't it?

[Levon K]

As long as the matchmaker starts with a group on each side of roughly the same size, then fills each side with PUGs, I'm OK with this.


Edit - spelling

Edited by Levon K, 16 January 2014 - 10:03 PM.

[Sandpit]

Levon K, on 16 January 2014 - 10:02 PM, said:

As long as the matchmaker starts with a group on each side of roughly the same size, then fills each side with PUGs, I'm OK with this.


Edit - spelling

That's how it works now.
Premades start in alpha, the next to bravo, the next is either a 3rd of lone wolves
The other team fills the same

[Roadbeer]

WarZ, on 16 January 2014 - 09:17 PM, said:

Speaking as someone in the highest elo tier ...

[Citation Needed]