168 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

wanderer, on 21 January 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

Sure, they can fix pinpoint damage.

It's only really pinpoint if the damage can be fully delivered before movement shifts the area being damaged to another hitbox or off the target entirely. It's why when you whip four LL's across a Spider it doesn't suddenly lose a leg, but if you drill it with an AC/20, it's the odd 'Mech out in a butt-kicking contest.

Let's say that instead of being 20 x 1, an AC/20 delivered it's damage as a .4 duration of 5 damage per .1 "tic" and shoot that scout again.

You hit. 5 damage goes to the leg armor. It's moving at 100+ kph. 5 more damage hit the other leg. Tic. The other two tics blow holes in the ground.

You fire at the Thunderbolt. He's moving slower. Two tics hit the CT,two the RT.

He returns fire with a pair of ER PPC's. 20 damage,one location. Ouch.

How about instead, that PPC "splashes" as lightning arcs across the hit? 2x6 damage to the location, with the remaning 2x4 damage hitting a random adjacent location. Still hurt, but 2 locations take damage better than one since each took less damage than either one would have if both PPC's as they are now landed in the same place. Hit the LT with splash PPC? Some damage will land on the LA, CT,or LL. Put em both into the leg? Splash damage to the torso. And so on.

Everyone's still hitting, still doing damage- but the love gets spread around a bit,and it's tougher to centerpunch someone to death if they're on the ball, shielding, moving, twisting.

So turn the AC20 into an AC5. No thanks, we already have that.

[Corvus Antaka]

3 PPC & an ac/10 or gauss or even ac/20 is a range of 40-50 dmg per alpha strike. that 100 dmg in 2 alphas in the span of 8 seconds.

this really circumvents ghost heat / all the other alpha builds. 3 PPC fired together is still manageable, chain fire is no problem to handle.

some tuning really needs to be done. no surprise we are seeing 3-4 min matches with these builds right now and the normal PPC being so low heat.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 21 January 2014 - 09:31 AM.

[wanderer]

Quote

So turn the AC20 into an AC5. No thanks, we already have that.

The AC/20 still hit for 20 damage, as long as can keep it on target for .4 seconds. It might not hit the same spot if they're smart and evading,and part of it might miss if they do.

You leave the AC or PPC as "all damage to one spot, instantly" and it's a meta-winning weapon. That's where the MWO meta has always been- whatever can deliver lots of damage to one spot, fast. The only reason the Gauss doesn't get that is the charge mechanism demands lower-accuracy snap shooting rather than aim, click, hi I'm a Jagermech and I just nailed one location for 40 damage instantly.

Frontloaded, instant-damage pinpoint strikes are the poison. Spreading that damage is the cure, and until those weapons no longer deal all their damage either to one spot automatically and/or instantly, the meta is locked tight and people will keep getting one-two shotted regular as clockwork.

[Joseph Mallan]

Is that Sarcasm Pada? PPC low heat???

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 January 2014 - 09:37 AM, said:

Is that Sarcasm Pada? PPC low heat???

As a 30 year tabletop veteran, you must've noticed that our heat thresholds are much higher in this game. Right?

[Joseph Mallan]

wanderer, on 21 January 2014 - 09:36 AM, said:

The AC/20 still hit for 20 damage, as long as can keep it on target for .4 seconds. It might not hit the same spot if they're smart and evading,and part of it might miss if they do.

You leave the AC or PPC as "all damage to one spot, instantly" and it's a meta-winning weapon. That's where the MWO meta has always been- whatever can deliver lots of damage to one spot, fast. The only reason the Gauss doesn't get that is the charge mechanism demands lower-accuracy snap shooting rather than aim, click, hi I'm a Jagermech and I just nailed one location for 40 damage instantly.

Frontloaded, instant-damage pinpoint strikes are the poison. Spreading that damage is the cure, and until those weapons no longer deal all their damage either to one spot automatically and/or instantly, the meta is locked tight and people will keep getting one-two shotted regular as clockwork.

We have the same damage being done by AC5s as we do AC20 already though. AC2 fires 9 times in 5 seconds for 18 damage, AC5 fires 3 ties in 4 seconds for 15 damage, AC10 fires twice in 5 seconds for 20 damage, AC20 fires once in 5 seconds for 20 damage. Its all the same damage and we have nothing but whine about that as is. Keep solid slugs doing solid damage.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 21 January 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

As a 30 year tabletop veteran, you must've noticed that our heat thresholds are much higher in this game. Right?

It is an unfortunate fact, but that doesn't make the PPC too cool.

[MischiefSC]

0.3 to 0.5 second DOT for PPCs and ACs. Put the ac10 projectile speed back. That's enough DOT to spread the damage a little and prevent jump/peek sniping from being quite as dominant. Still works, still viable, just not instant pinpoint damage in a single location from snap-shooting.

This is an incredibly easy solution that requires no coding. The biggest issue would be changing the visual for PPCs and ACs into a 'stream of bullets 0.3 to 0.5 seconds long and the PPC 'trail' thickening up to represent a longer 'bolt' so to speak.

Leave gauss as pinpoint. The brutal charge-up and 1.5 second discharge on it has nerfed the poor girl into the ground enough.

Shorten pulse laser beam duration but give it range-max like ACs - this effectively turns them into a viable alternative to regular lasers. Hotter, heavier, minimal damage increase but for example that would give the LPL the same max range as a LL - just higher point-blank range with more heat/damage and a more graduated damage fall-off over range. This makes them hotter, heavier, but more precise and a flat out better brawling alternative without completely sacrificing mid to long range firepower.

These two things would fix so much in MW:O that it's not even funny. It could be done in a weekend. The changes to stats would take less than an hour to make. Adjusting visuals is the toughest part.

Simple, effective, comprehensive.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

MischiefSC, on 21 January 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

0.3 to 0.5 second DOT for PPCs and ACs. Put the ac10 projectile speed back. That's enough DOT to spread the damage a little and prevent jump/peek sniping from being quite as dominant. Still works, still viable, just not instant pinpoint damage in a single location from snap-shooting.

This is an incredibly easy solution that requires no coding. The biggest issue would be changing the visual for PPCs and ACs into a 'stream of bullets 0.3 to 0.5 seconds long and the PPC 'trail' thickening up to represent a longer 'bolt' so to speak.

Leave gauss as pinpoint. The brutal charge-up and 1.5 second discharge on it has nerfed the poor girl into the ground enough.

Shorten pulse laser beam duration but give it range-max like ACs - this effectively turns them into a viable alternative to regular lasers. Hotter, heavier, minimal damage increase but for example that would give the LPL the same max range as a LL - just higher point-blank range with more heat/damage and a more graduated damage fall-off over range. This makes them hotter, heavier, but more precise and a flat out better brawling alternative without completely sacrificing mid to long range firepower.

These two things would fix so much in MW:O that it's not even funny. It could be done in a weekend. The changes to stats would take less than an hour to make. Adjusting visuals is the toughest part.

Simple, effective, comprehensive.

Great post.

[Joseph Mallan]

MischiefSC, on 21 January 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

0.3 to 0.5 second DOT for PPCs and ACs. Put the ac10 projectile speed back. That's enough DOT to spread the damage a little and prevent jump/peek sniping from being quite as dominant. Still works, still viable, just not instant pinpoint damage in a single location from snap-shooting.

This is an incredibly easy solution that requires no coding. The biggest issue would be changing the visual for PPCs and ACs into a 'stream of bullets 0.3 to 0.5 seconds long and the PPC 'trail' thickening up to represent a longer 'bolt' so to speak.

Leave gauss as pinpoint. The brutal charge-up and 1.5 second discharge on it has nerfed the poor girl into the ground enough.

Shorten pulse laser beam duration but give it range-max like ACs - this effectively turns them into a viable alternative to regular lasers. Hotter, heavier, minimal damage increase but for example that would give the LPL the same max range as a LL - just higher point-blank range with more heat/damage and a more graduated damage fall-off over range. This makes them hotter, heavier, but more precise and a flat out better brawling alternative without completely sacrificing mid to long range firepower.

These two things would fix so much in MW:O that it's not even funny. It could be done in a weekend. The changes to stats would take less than an hour to make. Adjusting visuals is the toughest part.

Simple, effective, comprehensive.

This looks good, but are you saying to have an AC20 hit like an AC5 does now? Cause there are already a bunch of threads saying the smaller ACs are doing to much damage as is.

I like the effect of the PPC you described. PPCs have been described as both balls of energy an lashes of blue-white energy in many books and stories on The BattleCorps site.

[StainlessSR]

Several people have said and I agree that the pinpoint damage of several weapons on one spot is the main culprit that is causing the problems.

The main problem with all these point weapon systems is how you can put multiple weapons damage unto the same hit box at the same time. The weapons whom are most liable to this are the PPC, and AC's (except the LB) as they deliver damage at one moment. The quickest and easiest way to fix would be to put weapon spread into those weapons. This is already done with streaks so applying the same mechanic shouldn't be so hard. This would keep the multiple PPC/AC shot from all hitting the same hardpoint. This would allow them to set as a pilot skill "Decrease weapon spread - reduces the amount of weapon spread by 12%" as part of the master section and as a piece of equipment "Advanced targeting computer - 3 tons - reduce weapon spread by 5%" and lastly, as a module "Targeting computer alignment module - reduce weapon spread/lock on time by 3%". PLUS IT IS CANNON all weapons are not supposed to hit exactly where you target.

If we set default hit at targeted point to 50% with all mods this would raise the percentage to 70%. This should still remove most of the one/two shot alpha kills as there would still be a 30% chance that the shot would hit a different part of the mech (or miss if you were targeting an arm instead of ct).

While I still enjoy the game the preponderance of one hit kill setups is sadly killing any enjoyment of this game for me (it has reduced my enjoyment greatly, closed beta had such long games and with the bad weapon focusing pinpont wasnt' much of an issue).

[Mister Blastman]

Specops12, on 18 January 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

PPCs (and ACs) will remain the meta until lasers receive some form of buff

They'll remain the meta until the weapons system is completely overhauled.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mister Blastman, on 21 January 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

They'll remain the meta until the weapons system is completely overhauled.

Which would require bringing he energy weapons damage up to ballistic levels if we want to make a change for the masses..

[Mister Blastman]

Damage alone won't cut it. The delivery systems are the issue.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mister Blastman, on 21 January 2014 - 10:28 AM, said:

Damage alone won't cut it. The delivery systems are the issue.

Shorten the beam duration. The game is getting to weak in the damage department with all these nerfs.

[Mister Blastman]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 January 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

Shorten the beam duration. The game is getting to weak in the damage department with all these nerfs.

Splash damage for PPCs; and all projectiles (except SRMs) inherit mech velocity!

(That'd be a fantastic fix)

[MischiefSC]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 January 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

This looks good, but are you saying to have an AC20 hit like an AC5 does now? Cause there are already a bunch of threads saying the smaller ACs are doing to much damage as is.

I like the effect of the PPC you described. PPCs have been described as both balls of energy an lashes of blue-white energy in many books and stories on The BattleCorps site.

No, I'm saying that the single pull of the trigger on your AC20 releases one 0.4 second 'stream' of shells at your target with a recycle time of 4 seconds from the moment you fired, not the end of the spray. I'd be good with putting projectile speed back in this case as well. The intent is that at close to mid range it's not that hard to put all 20 points in the same place. I'd make it 20 individual 1 point 'tics' so that you can put, say, 18 points on the LT and 2 pts on the CT of a torso-swinging mech.

The main result though is that if you're jump-sniping with your 2xPPC/1xAC20 your own movement back into cover is going to spread that damage on the target. Your hill-humping needs to involve you holding position for about 0.5 seconds to get your shots off accurately, not be effectively instantaneous.

It keeps those weapons close to pinpoint but not absolute. You vary the 'beam' duration for AC5s (0.2) to AC10 (0.3) to AC20 (0.4) to PPC (0.5) and you effectively increase the spread of damage between mixed weapon types on moving targets or when fired at high speed.

Which makes it MORE BT. You can still put all your damage on the same location, it just becomes exponentially harder to do so while on the move against a moving target at range. It eliminates those lucky 30 point pinpoint hits from snap-shooting.

You still do damage on a hit, you're still getting rewarded for your accuracy, you're just spreading that damage a bit. Not too much, not like lasers, just enough to reward twisting, mobility and situational awareness and reduce the reward for poptarting and hill-humping.

Maybe some day we can have a Kali Yama Big Bore perform differently from Luxor Devastator but for now I'm of the opinion we need to move the pinpoint weapons just a tad into DOT.

[Joseph Mallan]

I just can't agree with that, Sorry.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

MischiefSC, on 21 January 2014 - 10:39 AM, said:

No, I'm saying that the single pull of the trigger on your AC20 releases one 0.4 second 'stream' of shells at your target with a recycle time of 4 seconds from the moment you fired, not the end of the spray. I'd be good with putting projectile speed back in this case as well. The intent is that at close to mid range it's not that hard to put all 20 points in the same place. I'd make it 20 individual 1 point 'tics' so that you can put, say, 18 points on the LT and 2 pts on the CT of a torso-swinging mech.

The main result though is that if you're jump-sniping with your 2xPPC/1xAC20 your own movement back into cover is going to spread that damage on the target. Your hill-humping needs to involve you holding position for about 0.5 seconds to get your shots off accurately, not be effectively instantaneous.

It keeps those weapons close to pinpoint but not absolute. You vary the 'beam' duration for AC5s (0.2) to AC10 (0.3) to AC20 (0.4) to PPC (0.5) and you effectively increase the spread of damage between mixed weapon types on moving targets or when fired at high speed.

Which makes it MORE BT. You can still put all your damage on the same location, it just becomes exponentially harder to do so while on the move against a moving target at range. It eliminates those lucky 30 point pinpoint hits from snap-shooting.

You still do damage on a hit, you're still getting rewarded for your accuracy, you're just spreading that damage a bit. Not too much, not like lasers, just enough to reward twisting, mobility and situational awareness and reduce the reward for poptarting and hill-humping.

Maybe some day we can have a Kali Yama Big Bore perform differently from Luxor Devastator but for now I'm of the opinion we need to move the pinpoint weapons just a tad into DOT.

Still spot on.

[Joseph Mallan]

Yes. It is a good argument. I just don't agree with it. Nothing wrong with that in this century right?

[wanderer]

Quote

We have the same damage being done by AC5s as we do AC20 already though. AC2 fires 9 times in 5 seconds for 18 damage, AC5 fires 3 ties in 4 seconds for 15 damage, AC10 fires twice in 5 seconds for 20 damage, AC20 fires once in 5 seconds for 20 damage. Its all the same damage and we have nothing but whine about that as is. Keep solid slugs doing solid damage.

You really don't get it.

It's the fact that these guns put their full damage REGARDLESS OF DPS on the same spot, all at once. Whether it's a bank of smaller guns or one big one, the problem isn't how much damage it's how easy and fast it is to place in a single hit location.

I take my AC/20 twin mounted Catapult out there. 40 damage. One spot. Instantly. Same thing with all AC's (and PPC's), the only difference being how much per combined strike and how often.