168 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 January 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

Yes. It is a good argument. I just don't agree with it. Nothing wrong with that in this century right?

Pfft. Communist. Americans agree with the party line....

you know, I think there was a time when that was actually the other way around.

[Joseph Mallan]

I remember those days Sir.

[SiorAlpin Wolf]

This game is following the trend of most weapon based games, once you start nerfing damage / flight path / heat it is a down ward spiral until the point of no return, the more people QQ and rage about being killed by a good shot or a skilled player the more likely the dev's will nerf that weapon type to the point where all weapons will do 1 damage and accumulate 20 heat.

The only question i need to pose is, how long will it be until we are left with just 1 weapon choice?

But if they did implement a system that isnt really hard to do which is that of weapon dithering as StainlessSR and Mister Blastman have explained then there would be no need to nerf anything really, then the dev's can concentrate or more important issues like game content instead of trying to appease all the cry babies that want to turn this game into easy mode.

This is not a game where you get a medal for taking part, put in the work, develop the skill yes it is hard but so is life.
Unfortunately i cant say what i really think because of the extended UCMJ if i did i would probably get banned, but lets just say that in the right hands this game would be far more than it is now.

[Joseph Mallan]

Well said Sior.

[MischiefSC]

False dilemma.

Bad balance is still bad. Pinpoint is inherently superior to DOT and you have to make pinpoint weapons essentially unplayable to equalize that. Everything else is just tweaking percentages on either end.

What we have now is a couple of peak weapons and some other stuff you use for variety.

You can play something other than PPCs + AC, but you're gimping yourself. Rather than twist the arbitrary numbers give most ACs and the PPC a tiny DOT effect. This does more to balance weapon performance than any and every other change you can make.

You can argue that weapons shouldn't be balanced - that there should be peak weapons, a natural progression or the like. Given the current nature of the game meta (no R&R, etc) that seems pretty irrational to me though.

[Joseph Mallan]

MischiefSC, on 21 January 2014 - 11:49 AM, said:

False dilemma.

Bad balance is still bad. Pinpoint is inherently superior to DOT and you have to make pinpoint weapons essentially unplayable to equalize that. Everything else is just tweaking percentages on either end.

What we have now is a couple of peak weapons and some other stuff you use for variety.

You can play something other than PPCs + AC, but you're gimping yourself. Rather than twist the arbitrary numbers give most ACs and the PPC a tiny DOT effect. This does more to balance weapon performance than any and every other change you can make.

You can argue that weapons shouldn't be balanced - that there should be peak weapons, a natural progression or the like. Given the current nature of the game meta (no R&R, etc) that seems pretty irrational to me though.

Don't start me on R&R. During R&R I never used an XL engine, I always had C.A.S.E. and found that a Centurion was a more cost effective ride than My (F)Atlas! I am a hammer player I want my damage done to you now not over the next 2-5 seconds. I do have lasers for that damage but they augment my hammer which also has missiles to sand off armor from where ever they hit. I do not see this system as a problem but perfection. cause some people Min/Max to get better results than they deserve is not my issue. I kill them as often as I die to them. Without falling into the min/max trap... My Jager40 excluded as I only use that sparingly.
All my Orion needs is some double sinks, and a few tons more ammo and it will be fine! AC10 large, LRM, SRM, couple mediums.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Vanguard319, on 21 January 2014 - 07:56 AM, said:

PPCs are supposed to be pinpoint.They aren't lasers, which do their damage based on time on target, they fire in one all-or-nothing burst. They also have a travel time, which means they can miss at very long range. (I've sniped at targets over a kilometer away and have missed by a very narrow margin.) PPC accuracy improves as you close with the target, but that is normal, and applies with every other weapon. (even TT rules have higher to-hit mods at longer ranges.)

At the moment, they are one of the better balanced weapons. As mentioned by another post, fix the hit detection with SRMs and ACs, and PPCs are less of an issue.

ya in TT all weapons were pinpoint once the actual location was determained by the die roll, a LL did all 8 damage to THAT spot, a PPC did all 10 damage to 1 spot. even LRMS did all their damage (once rolls determained how many hit) to 1 spot.

so when we translate it into MWO...... PPC,AC's and guass... only pinpoint weapons period. all the others do damage over time or spread the damage over the target.

the only solution i see is to either make ALL weapons perfectly pinpoint or to make ALL weapons have splash or in some way spread the damage around.

really it is BS that a LL does 2 damage over 4 parts of a mech vs a ppc doing 10 to 1 spot.

that is the real problem period, that only a small amount of weapons even do pinpoint.

the only solution is to remove pinpoint entirely, PPCs should do splash damage, autocannons SHOULD be a burst weapon that spreads the damage around. the Guass should be the ONLY pinpoint weapon at all period.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 January 2014 - 09:43 AM, said:

We have the same damage being done by AC5s as we do AC20 already though. AC2 fires 9 times in 5 seconds for 18 damage, AC5 fires 3 ties in 4 seconds for 15 damage, AC10 fires twice in 5 seconds for 20 damage, AC20 fires once in 5 seconds for 20 damage. Its all the same damage and we have nothing but whine about that as is. Keep solid slugs doing solid damage.


It is an unfortunate fact, but that doesn't make the PPC too cool.

no no and no

all those smaller weapons are BANKING on damage over time(DPS). they will NEVER be able to challenge the ac20 because it delivers its WHOLE salvo bam to 1 spot. try holding those ac2's on target for 5 seconds and you will understand why lasers are garbage compared to the ppc. because its the same deal, the ac2? is like a med pulse laser, fast fire, fast recharge high heat, high dps. ac20? is just straight up 2 ppcs with ammo and less heat.

DPS doesn't matter in the least bit slightest if you DIE in the first second of combat that's the point.

the mechs that hedge on damage over time (DPS) vs insta one hit are (redacted). ya they will harass, ya they will likely have longer range and the opportunity to make up the difference distance and tactics. but it doesn't change the fact that dual ac20's are dual ppcs up to 800M, you still get smacked for 20 damage at max range in 1 location, while you still have to HOLD a lead on the target if you use ERLL or ac'2/5's. how are mechs supposed to def torso twist when they HAVE TO CONSTANTLY AIM BECAUSE OF ROF? vs a mech that slings boulders at you then just twists because HE DOESN'T HAVE TO HOLD ON TARGET?

the problem IS pinpoint its ALWAYS BEEN THE PROBLEM. not heat, not overall damage or DPS, not the "profile" of one weapon vs another, simply pinpoint is the problem ITSELF.

one simple little thing shouldn't be that huge an advantage, but the way MWO has been developed has brought us to this point.

if pinpoint stays, the only other solutions is to give CT 3x armor for FREE, give side torsos 2X armor for FREE. Then pilots will be more inclined to aim for the side torso or arm or leg, then pilots will be rewarded for piecing enemies apart vs the quick kill.
NOTHING short of making that CT a TANK will make players NOT aim for it.

and also C-bills plays a factor. you do make less when you lose because you don't have the opportunity to get in any damage if your team just fails you and dies. you don't get the time or opportunity to get a good score and make money.

thus the quick kill will always be the best because it KILLS FAST, who cares if you can make more cbills taking off a piece at a time? its a self defeating (redacted redacted redacted redacted) system.

the high reward comes with greatest risk OF LOSING so OF COURSE pilots will be inclined to take the SMALL payout with LOW risk of losing vs the high risk and high payout.

it really is that simple, the game rewards quick kills because its the fastest way to generate c-bills, its also the BEST way to guarantee a win. but its the worst way to actually play the game because it boils all combat down to......... HIT THE CT!.

its just stupid.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 January 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

Don't start me on R&R. During R&R I never used an XL engine, I always had C.A.S.E. and found that a Centurion was a more cost effective ride than My (F)Atlas! I am a hammer player I want my damage done to you now not over the next 2-5 seconds. I do have lasers for that damage but they augment my hammer which also has missiles to sand off armor from where ever they hit. I do not see this system as a problem but perfection. cause some people Min/Max to get better results than they deserve is not my issue. I kill them as often as I die to them. Without falling into the min/max trap... My Jager40 excluded as I only use that sparingly.
All my Orion needs is some double sinks, and a few tons more ammo and it will be fine! AC10 large, LRM, SRM, couple mediums.

exactly go take your hammer (i mean anti material rifle) and play COD.

there are real "boom hammers" in mechwarrior. ya ya the ac20 is the "best all around slugger" but its got nothing on thunder missiles, or dual arrow IV launchers which will straight up crack atlas's in one salvo, or long tom artillery or the HAG, or the super heavy guass which outdoes almost any boom-hammer short of dropship weapons in TT.

alas we don't have those weapons, the gratuitous damage dealers and one shot cannons of TT.

so please forgive us for insisting that the ones that aren't supposed to be "boom hammers" actually use DOT like every other weapon does.

[MischiefSC]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 January 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

Don't start me on R&R. During R&R I never used an XL engine, I always had C.A.S.E. and found that a Centurion was a more cost effective ride than My (F)Atlas! I am a hammer player I want my damage done to you now not over the next 2-5 seconds. I do have lasers for that damage but they augment my hammer which also has missiles to sand off armor from where ever they hit. I do not see this system as a problem but perfection. cause some people Min/Max to get better results than they deserve is not my issue. I kill them as often as I die to them. Without falling into the min/max trap... My Jager40 excluded as I only use that sparingly.
All my Orion needs is some double sinks, and a few tons more ammo and it will be fine! AC10 large, LRM, SRM, couple mediums.

I'd rather have some sort of COF or convergence solution but that's not going to happen.

I get where you're coming from, I do! I love my AC20, I love my Orions for them. Roll in a standard, AC20, lasers to and missiles depending on model and it's like a fast, skinny Atlas.

I'd love to have R&R back too it's a critical piece of the balance equation for weapons, mech size and performance.

None of that's going to happen though. There's 0 chance. It's like removing film grain - being a good idea has nothing to do with its viability. It's that way because EFF YOU, that's why I guess.

So given that how do you make simple adjustments to resolve balance issues? DOT does that. You could download the Cryengine SDK and the manual and I kid you not make the changes to DOT in an afternoon with absolutely no coding experience. If you can chew gum you can implement the changes I suggested.

Also keep in mind that I said ZERO POINT THREE seconds, not three seconds. About one half the duration of a small pulse laser, one third the duration of a regular laser for most weapons.

For a military perspective that's, what, barely a 3 round burst from an M240. You'd have trouble limiting yourself to 0.3 seconds of burst fire from any SAW, I don't think you can cut it that fine.

It's still a hammer hit, still a sudden burst of damage, just that it spreads slightly when combined with fast movement.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

The meta is in a sad state until tonnage limits are placed.

Edited by lockwoodx, 21 January 2014 - 11:12 PM.

[Wildstreak]

After what happened with the Multiple Ballistic Threads, expecting PPC speed nerf incoming.

[Mystere]

MischiefSC, on 21 January 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

0.3 to 0.5 second DOT for PPCs and ACs ...

Joseph Mallan, on 21 January 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

Shorten the beam duration ...

And all non-missile weapons start to act -- if not look -- the same.

Do you folks see where this is heading? ---> BORING!!!

SiorAlpin Wolf, on 21 January 2014 - 11:19 AM, said:

This game is following the trend of most weapon based games, once you start nerfing damage / flight path / heat it is a down ward spiral until the point of no return, the more people QQ and rage about being killed by a good shot or a skilled player the more likely the dev's will nerf that weapon type to the point where all weapons will do 1 damage and accumulate 20 heat.

The only question i need to pose is, how long will it be until we are left with just 1 weapon choice?

At least someone here seems to be noticing the same thing.

Edited by Mystere, 21 January 2014 - 11:24 PM.

[Krujiente]

What you could do to screw the alpha potential instead of creating a burn time for everything, is make pinpoint weapons incapable of firing simultaneously. Make them force Chain fire on them, making lasers and Missles (And AC2s cus they need it) exceptions to this rule makes them have an edge in the brawl alpha sector of the game. Also make un-cushioned by jets JJ falls be more damaging to your legs. This way lights can still JJ in and out of battle and JJs can still be used for their quirk turn abilities, but poptarts will need to jet smartly to avoid blowing their actuators and legging themselves, they also will be required to limit themselves on their poptart alphas. If you keep ghost heat in and keep PPCs able to simultaneously alpha, they also might be able to get an edge and maybe actually make the stock awesome with double heat sinks slapped on a viable fire support platform.

[Mystere]

Mellifluer, on 21 January 2014 - 10:40 PM, said:

if pinpoint stays, the only other solutions is to give CT 3x armor for FREE, give side torsos 2X armor for FREE. Then pilots will be more inclined to aim for the side torso or arm or leg, then pilots will be rewarded for piecing enemies apart vs the quick kill.
NOTHING short of making that CT a TANK will make players NOT aim for it.

I have a radical idea. Why not reduce or even halve ammo per ton instead?

I have an even more radical idea, why not do both?

And for an even more radical idea, why not do both and increase the chance of ammo explosions, especially when damage occurs during uncontrolled falls into the ground?

Suddenly, you will have only two real apex weapons, the (ER)PPC and Gauss. And CASE becomes useful compared to the mere space-hogging dead weight it is right now.

There are other things that can also be done without making all weapons act the same or even touching them at all:

• make all maps huge, but with areas good for sniping and indirect fire, other areas good for brawling, while having avenues for flanking and encirclement
  
• separate targeting reticules for RT,CT,LT,HEAD, LA, RA (worst case scenario)

Edited by Mystere, 21 January 2014 - 11:58 PM.

[Krujiente]

Mystere, on 21 January 2014 - 11:45 PM, said:

I have a radical idea. Why not reduce or even halve ammo per ton instead?

I have an even more radical idea, why not do both?

And for an even more radical idea, why not do both and increase the chance of ammo explosions, especially when damage occurs during uncontrolled falls into the ground?

Suddenly, you will have only two real apex weapons, the (ER)PPC and Gauss. And CASE becomes useful compared to the mere space-hogging dead weight it is right now.

Ammo counts ARE buffed from table top, mostly by 1.5x (except for SRMs). And I do agree ammo explosions need to go in pretty hard along with uncushioned JJ leg damage. but really I can get by on a poptart with much less ammo then a normal mech, because all my shots count. especially using twin AC5s and three tons of ammo is about perfect for me. I think my suggestion would definitely hurt the poptart crowd which is what is the issue mostly.

[Bernard Matthaios]

I never been a meta guy but the nerfs need to stop. Start buffing the non metabused weapons slightly and the meta should shift. But we still have the pinpoint damage with paper thin armor problem :/
I'm on the COF/convergence boat even if its not going anywhere. Some sort of "randomization" is needed - LRM's,SRM's,LBX's already have it. At the very least, slight splash damage for PPC's would be better than nothing. If not, then start giving weapons quirks. PPC's receive EMP interference for a second or two and massive recoil when fired. Allow them use within 90m but with the danger of taking damage yourself?... I don't know...

I do know Ghost heat was just a band aid. Its time to try something different. There are plenty of suggestions on these forums that are worth trying.

[Ryoken]

Falso, on 18 January 2014 - 02:42 AM, said:

... however, why hasn't the PPC (the real culprit) been more adjusted?

Greatly disagree! The weapon type overpowered in the current meta are the ACs! Pinpoint damage, cool and high rate of fire! They rule the game at the moment!

[wanderer]

People say that making AC's no longer pinpoint, instant damage will make weapons boring. Too similar.

I'll give you a clue. The longer the meta remains as it is right now, the more boring the game will become because it will ossify into solid, recognizably superior weapons- because no matter how you obfuscate it, the meta will gravitate towards whatever delivers concentrated, large amounts of damage to a single point at instant or as near to it as possible.

Period. You could read through archives dating back to closed beta when we had four 'Mechs to choose from, and it'd be the same deal- the only difference being other weapons that were optimal for that. Fastbacks with banks of MLs. Hexa-PPC Stalkers. Now, PPC/AC layouts. The problem with each has been the same- weapons that can deliver full damage to single points with minimal drawbacks obliterate their targets at rates far faster than weapons that cannot, regardless of their DPS. 15 damage to one spot is far quicker a killer than someone hitting you in multiple places for twice that in the same amount of time.

These weapons negate the primary defensive features of a 'Mech- it's ability to disperse damage. They are, thanks to this more effective by far than their DPS and other stats would otherwise imply.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mystere, on 21 January 2014 - 11:18 PM, said:

And all non-missile weapons start to act -- if not look -- the same.

Do you folks see where this is heading? ---> BORING!!!

Yeah but at least its boring in the opposite direction of DpS Ballistics! And who ever thought dying faster would be called ...Boring???