91 replies to this topic

[the darkness in all of us]

Eldagore, on 20 January 2014 - 09:47 PM, said:

{lots of great info and advice}

Wow thanks!! Really going to use this to my advantage
One question though (kinda to everyone actually):
I noticed that over 90% of the builds use ERLL or dual ERLL but I almost never see PPC/ERPPCs in these recommended builds.
Why's there no love for the PPC?

Appreciate any advice you all can give!

[Malleus011]

I have a couple of Thud builds that use PPC/ERPPC, but only singles, because they struggle so much with heat dissipation.

I have to tell a story of Thunderbolt zen.

I'm playing a TDR-5S on Forest Colony. It's the usual peekfest with a few long-range rounds zipping about. My Thud is thumping around with the Atlas, waiting for the main event to start, popping a few LRMs here and there to attrit the enemy, who are in a death ball around the cave mouth.

Until they push - all of them - out of the pass and into our flank. I'm the left flank; even our Atlas is a little out-of-position. The whole team steamrolls towards me. I get off a few shots, chirp off a warning - and realize they're *all* coming at ME.

So I stop bothering to shoot and start torso twisting and dodging like a madman. My Thud starts shedding damage. I lose the right arm. The back armor. The left arm. The right torso. The right LEG. The remaining torso half - and finally go down under all that massed fire.

The thing is - this took their whole team ENDLESS SECONDS to hammer down my single Thunderbolt - seconds my team used to form a firing line and just GUT their push. We ended up winning the match with my Thud as our only casualty.

Did I do good damage? Naah, not really. But I soaked up so much damage that our team managed to crush their push and turn that into a decisive win. Maybe not the most amazing Thunderbolt fight ever, but certainly a 'use' for the big gorilla.

[Davoke]

For me, I always trolled around with a generalist build capable of mixing it up or providing fire support...
TDR-9S

[Tahribator]

I recently started playing with my 9S, it was the only one missing elite.

Oh god. I completely forgot how handicapped this 'Mech is. It's not Locust horrible, but it's incredibly mediocre. It's slow, sentenced to STD engines because of gigantic side torso hitboxes, it has bad torso twist, bad arm motion range and mostly torso mounted weaponry to seal the deal. It's also oversized for its tonnage that makes it a bullet magnet.

I made it through sheer willpower and I even had a game where I had 5 kills and 1060 damage(which I'll frame and nail on my wall), but the rest of the 90% games were complete torture.

Paul really needs to revisit these mechs and give them some huge bonuses like those the Awesome got.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Crazy Wolfgang, on 14 August 2014 - 12:01 AM, said:

Wow thanks!! Really going to use this to my advantage
One question though (kinda to everyone actually):
I noticed that over 90% of the builds use ERLL or dual ERLL but I almost never see PPC/ERPPCs in these recommended builds.
Why's there no love for the PPC?

Appreciate any advice you all can give!

Plenty of people use PPCs- but they're a different weapon from the Large Laser, and that especially shows with the recent projectile travel speed reduction.

As things currently stand, PPCs are more of a mid-range weapon, since they're dodgable at longer ranges. This makes the ERLL the long-range direct-fire energy weapon of choice, for one.

Additionally, a PPC is hotter than a standard Large Laser (both per-shot and over-time), has worse refire rate than either form of Large Laser, and weighs two tons more while taking up an extra critical hit slot. Since Thuds tend towards heavy engines, that two tons additional is something of a penalty, and with the barrel chest and excellent twist-soak of the Thud, more frequent turning involved in the turn-to-fire-then-turn-away is also better.

Since Thuds have a missile hardpoint available (two, sometimes) and ERLL is an option, those tend to be the long-range weapons of choice, and with the standard Large Laser's lower heat, lower weight, faster rate of fire, and instant connection to the target, it tends to make a better mid-range weapon choice for the Thud than a PPC. Not always, but frequently.

[Rando Slim]

Well you've gotten some great responses here so I wont go too far down the rabbit hole. Weirdly, I thought like you OP, that Thunderbolts were kinda pointless, and every time I played them I felt I did kinda meh in them.......until I looked at my stats 2 months later and realized that with a significant sample size (50-75 matches) they were my most consistent chassis. Yea I never put out huge damage with them, but I didn't die in them a lot either, they are great heavy support mechs as body guard or long range supporters. I had nearly identical K/D ratios in all of them at around 1.4, the only chassis I have all variants with solidly above 1.0 ratios. They are the kind of mech that wont knock your socks off or carry the match, but it will be there at the end, it can take some hits and keep on trucking. I love the hardpoint variety and the sheer number of them. I love that you can make them left-handed, I love that theres one with jumpjets. and the cockpit view is cool IMO. Otherwise I believe the point of them is to be semi-viable oddballs, left-handed misfits that you just have fun in. I find the 5SS really boring but the others are all fun. You'd be surprised what you can still get on there even with a standard 300. Like, to me, a LBx-10 (or two srm 6s with artemis) a large pulse, and three mediums is adequate firepower. 82.2 kph is a good clip for a mech that size and then to be able to tank better than most things at that speed is great, as is the fact that like you said these days people don't fear them so you aren't a priority target.

Edited by Scrotacus 42, 16 August 2014 - 12:30 AM.

[the darkness in all of us]

Davoke, on 15 August 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

For me, I always trolled around with a generalist build capable of mixing it up or providing fire support...
TDR-9S

Like it! Cool build
Just wish it had Jump Jets

Quickdraw Crobat, on 15 August 2014 - 09:07 AM, said:

Plenty of people use PPCs- but they're a different weapon from the Large Laser, and that especially shows with the recent projectile travel speed reduction.

As things currently stand, PPCs are more of a mid-range weapon, since they're dodgable at longer ranges. This makes the ERLL the long-range direct-fire energy weapon of choice, for one.

Additionally, a PPC is hotter than a standard Large Laser (both per-shot and over-time), has worse refire rate than either form of Large Laser, and weighs two tons more while taking up an extra critical hit slot. Since Thuds tend towards heavy engines, that two tons additional is something of a penalty, and with the barrel chest and excellent twist-soak of the Thud, more frequent turning involved in the turn-to-fire-then-turn-away is also better.

Since Thuds have a missile hardpoint available (two, sometimes) and ERLL is an option, those tend to be the long-range weapons of choice, and with the standard Large Laser's lower heat, lower weight, faster rate of fire, and instant connection to the target, it tends to make a better mid-range weapon choice for the Thud than a PPC. Not always, but frequently.

It all makes sense. But the main reason I don't like regular lasers is that they burn sooooo long. That's time I'm left exposed & I kinda hate that. I like the PPC because you just shoot and release and then free to keep moving on. With lasers you have to sit there a full second or so (like you would with a magnifying glass over an ant) and just waaaaait for the baddie to catch on fire

[Void Angel]

My Thunderbolt build currently is the Thunderbuddy. Geared for close-range combat and long-range harassment, it excels at protecting larger, slower 'mechs, using its unparalleled damage spreading to absorb fire while still dishing out damage. I actually like a Slightly Slower build more, but with the Clans' superior firepower settling people into the Backwoods Drinking Contest school of combat, I felt the need for more speed at the expense of firepower.

[Koniks]

6xML+1xGauss on the 9S.

[the darkness in all of us]

Mizeur, on 23 August 2014 - 06:12 PM, said:

6xML+1xGauss on the 9S.

What size engine and how many double heat sinks?

[Colonel Jaime Wolf]

On my 9S I got 5 ML, 1 LL, and 2 MG. decent speed and firepower. Reminds me of a Grasshopper w/o the Jumpjets and since its got no XL engine, I'm fairly able to stay alive in a well-supported lance.

[ImperialKnight]

Let's not kid ourselves here. The Thunderbolt is a meh mech. Huge and defined torso hitboxes, low slung ballistic slots.

The only reasons people run one is 1) it came with the package or 2) It was free or 3) Nostalgia

[Void Angel]

Or, you know, because it's the toughest 'mech in its class to kill.

[themoob]

The 5SS has really high right torso energy hardpoints, so before PPCd got nerfed I would take dual erppc there and a lrm10 and just snipe from behind ridges and rarely take any returning fire. it was moderately successful.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

knightsljx, on 16 September 2014 - 07:17 PM, said:

Let's not kid ourselves here. The Thunderbolt is a meh mech. Huge and defined torso hitboxes, low slung ballistic slots.

The only reasons people run one is 1) it came with the package or 2) It was free or 3) Nostalgia

This is humorous for any number of reasons.

While not all Thuds are equal, some of the hard point mountings are very tasty. Any Thud with left torso energy mounts is great for shooting through narrow spaces or between allies. It's also wonderful for peeking around right turns, because if you do it right a twist to the left will pull you into cover, rather than having to stump backwards. Those with left arm ballistics can combine the energy points with an autocannon for even more corner-holding fun. Any Thud with right torso energy mounts has excellent hill peeking capability (especially if no missile rack is mounted to draw fire).

The barrelly chest and bulky arms make it hard to avoid getting hit, yes, and it's not going to win any prizes for Best Hardpoint Combination, but the thing is hideously durable as long as you keep moving and twisting, and the well-spread hardpoints mean that you don't lose all your firepower until you're either dead or a stick- and if you're a stick, your opponents have spent several hundred damage on you instead of someone else, and will have to spend even more to take you down at some point- which makes it time to be distracting and absorb fire that should be going to someone with guns left.

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 16 September 2014 - 10:52 PM.

[the darkness in all of us]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 16 September 2014 - 10:52 PM, said:

Any Thud with left torso energy mounts is great for shooting through narrow spaces or between allies. It's also wonderful for peeking around right turns, because if you do it right a twist to the left will pull you into cover, rather than having to stump backwards. Those with left arm ballistics can combine the energy points with an autocannon for even more corner-holding fun. Any Thud with right torso energy mounts has excellent hill peeking capability (especially if no missile rack is mounted to draw fire).

For that left-twist move, are you talking about the RT energy hardpoints of the 9S?

Quote

the thing is hideously durable as long as you keep moving and twisting, and the well-spread hardpoints mean that you don't lose all your firepower until you're either dead or a stick- and if you're a stick, your opponents have spent several hundred damage on you instead of someone else, and will have to spend even more to take you down at some point- which makes it time to be distracting and absorb fire that should be going to someone with guns left.

I noticed that even with a 300 engine my twist is sluggish. I'm tempted to mount the XL enginer the TDR can take to help my twist ability and also to be able to mount more weapons

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Crazy Wolfgang, on 21 September 2014 - 02:57 PM, said:

For that left-twist move, are you talking about the RT energy hardpoints of the 9S?

No, I'm talking about the vertical hardpoints under the cockpit of nearly every Thud ever, which is the LT hardpoints. The RT hardpoints on the 9S are for hill-peeking, being high-mounts perfectly level with the cockpit and at the top of the 'mech. The LT hardpoints, though- particularly hardpoints 1 and 2 (out of a possible 3 on... actually, every Thunderbolt) are perfectly aligned horizontally with the cockpit- which is mounted on the left torso. This means that torso twisting actually brings the cockpit around in an arc, so you can use pure twisting to expose the left torso and still see everything you could shoot at.

You can do this with the RT hardpoints too, but it's less advantageous- not only are those hardpoints mounted way off to the side, they're opposite the cockpit- which means that peeking around a corner with them means shooting things your cockpit can't view. Unless the cockpit is high enough to look over the obstacle, in which case no corner is needed anyways.

Crazy Wolfgang, on 21 September 2014 - 02:57 PM, said:

I noticed that even with a 300 engine my twist is sluggish. I'm tempted to mount the XL enginer the TDR can take to help my twist ability and also to be able to mount more weapons

Be very careful with this. The Thud is a barrel, and a really broad one. If you think you can spread damage well enough to offset the 'lose one torso and die' effect of the XL engine, then go ahead, but it's a lot harder to manage that than to shove a shoulder you can afford to lose in the way of incoming fire. You only lose 3.5 tons stepping up a 300 STD to a 320, or 5.5 going to a 330, and either one will noticeably crank up your twisting speed from a 300 engine. Additionally, with a standard engine in 325 or 330 rating, you will usually have the free slots in the 'mech for Endo-Steel, which is a 3 ton savings to offset that difference, unless you're mounting fantastically crit-straining equipment.

I could give you more specific advice, but I'd need a look at your build.


Edit: Whoops, some misadvice here. Forgot for a bit the Thud only goes up to a 315 engine.

Still, that's not much tonnage loss, and it makes the thing pretty dang agile- just ask my jumping Thud, which runs the max size engine and five medium lasers, with full jump jets and maximum armor. Everything else is devoted to heat sinks- it makes for an awe-inspiring and vicious 'fat Jenner'.

If you're going to run an XL engine on a Thud, I'd advise stepping down to a 250 to push your free tonnage for weapons even further- I have three Thuds with standard and one with an XL engine, and the XL Thud is slow, but boy did that let me pack on the weaponry.

TDR-5S From The Blue uses the 250 XL to put in two PPCs and an LB-X for armor-tearing followed by critsploiting fun, and still has room for a pair of SRM-4s and 12 DHS, just to ramp up the close-range critting. A little less effective with the PPC projectile slowdown, but it makes a good corner-peeker until mid-match, when it stumps out alongside the assaults and either tears things open for them with the PPCs or abuses the holes they make with a scattering of missiles and LB-X shot.


Keep in mind that Thunderbolts make great use of their energy hardpoints with medium lasers- being barrelly and good at soaking hits means they're excellent CQC 'mechs- and medium lasers just don't eat much tonnage, even including the heat sinks. That'll save you a lot of tonnage in the long run, especially if you can maintain fire control and use the lasers separately from whatever longer-range armament you put on them.

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 22 September 2014 - 05:45 AM.

[Dez Telinov]

My favorite Thunderbolt is the TDR-5S(P). It has a standard 260, 3 med lazor, 2 LRM-10, 4 tons ammo, ERPPC, and BAP. No AMS! Strip a bit of armor from left arm, and you got a mech that can do anything, great in a PUG match. Expend your LRM on targets you can hit (no spam), take the sniper shot when presented, and can even brawl.

[the darkness in all of us]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 21 September 2014 - 07:23 PM, said:

[great advice!]

Thanks very much for clarifying that and the advice.
I like that 5S you've created but the 250 engine is slooow. I'm used to mechs as nimble as HBKs with 250 engines. Fast in accelerating as well as twisting.
I think you put the PPC in the torso for sniping right? I agree that's smart use for em but I notice I get in a lot of engagements where I feel the need to have arm mounted weapons.

I kind of like this loadout. I'm primarily an Assault mech escorter in pugs. I stick near the DDC or DW and shoot at whatever is too distracted by the big guy to notice me.
I like "direct damage" weapons over DoT weapons (lasers) because I don't like lasers burn time. I feel like I can only hold it on a quarter of a second before the target has moved (minimizing my actual damage ).
For that reason I prefer PPCs.

I like the LBX because I've gotten a good amount of kills using it against unarmored targets. They are good for critical hits, but unlike machine guns, can damage mech armor

I use the LRMs for getting assist points and also as a "cheap autocannon" for any target over 200 meters away who want to "rush the Thunderbolt" and brawl get with LRMs even with no lock. Within that 200 meter zone it's strictly PPC and LBX to the cockpit (or CT)

[Bigbacon]

IMO, they die horrible deaths