91 replies to this topic

[Defender Rococo Rockfowl]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 08 October 2014 - 02:52 PM, said:

My personal rule of thumb for all builds (not just NRG) is that if it can fire at full rate for 30 seconds without overheating, then it's good enough for most any situation- if after 30 seconds, you and your target are both still present and intact, something is wrong.

Probably the best MWO advice I've read this year!
But that advice doesn't go for all tactics, right? A harrasser for example isn't going to use the same tactics a brawler would.
I've seen snipers just hang back and snipe at an assault (or its escort -- an ECM light). Every time that ECM light got hit with a PPC our team could target all of the enemy for a few seconds, and everyone took advantage.

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If you're having heat issues, I'd say the PPC should go- while my usual inclination would be to go for 5xML and more heat sinks/engine, if you'd prefer to avoid the five medium lasers there's more than just that way to go.

What do you think of 3 small lasers as a backup to a standard PPC?
9 damage and 6 heat as opposed to 3 ML's 15 damage and 16 heat. That's more heat than an ERPPC! And at a severly reduced range.
One of the things that use to drive me NUTS when I was a HBK-4G pilot was the twiddling of thumbs I'd have to do for the first two minutes of the battle when no one was within range of my weapons. The long range is a big reason I like PPCs -- that and the "all at once" damage.

Quickdraw Crobat, on 07 October 2014 - 02:11 AM, said:

That you might drive this kind of terrifies me, just because of how little ammo you have for that LRM. If long-range combat is the main purpose of your 'mech, that's just plain old not going to be enough LRM ammo unless you refrain from using the LRMs most of the time- at which point, you're better off not bothering.

I recommend if you want to use a build like this, step that 15 down to a 10- you'll get 18 shots per battle instead of 12- and slot in two heat sinks (preferably to the engine). This will let you fire more frequently when needed. 10 DHS is not enough unless your main weaponry is an LB-X or two. It really just isn't. Get caught on your own and any light 'mech will gleefully dodge your first volley and then shred you absolutely to bits.

Agree that the LRM10 is a better choice. The LRM is a supplementale weapon for me and honestly I'll be only likely to use it on targets that are NARC'd or are persistently being TAG'd.

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Similarly, dropping that SRM-6 to a 4 and adding a medium laser will increase your close combat damage, reduce your reload time, and make you less ammo dependent (you might be able to get away with a half-ton of SRM ammo in that case- use it to beef up your legs a little).

The reason I went with SRM6 over ML is 13 damage/4heat over three ML's 15 damage and 16 heat.
I suppose if I swapped the ERPPC for a PPC, 3ML might be valid BUT still much too hot for close range combat.
One SRM4+one ML at about 14 damage/7 heat... hmmm definitely a compromise but because I've got a PPC I'm not really concerned about ammo dependency. And I protect the right arm most.

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I still have to take issue with your choice of laser placement- in close combat, the arm mount's flexibility of aim is so much more vital than when sniping or taking pot-shots. A light 'mech finding you at the wrong time (something most good light pilots are especially skilled at doing) will just ruin your whole day.

If you're not worried about that at all, though, then go ahead with that.

Yes I agree completely. I saw a Summoner (I'm certain it was a stock build from the weapon loadout) and a Spider (ERLL and machine guns that had run out of ammo) once running around each other shooting at each other for probably a full minute, maybe longer!
I felt as if I was aging watching the battle because of how long it took for the spider to die.

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For a similar effect with better fire-to-hit time (thanks to PPC projectile slowdown), consider the following:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b70112984b3ef9e (Victor Ballistic version)
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...dafce143a3c186a (IV-Four Ballistic version)
However, that's besides the main point- you see, there are other 'mechs that do the job you've got your Thud doing better:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...84ef1f0c076f4e2
(Wolverine ERPPC)
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e33912f0d768a97
(Quickdraw ERPPC)

Thanks very much for the builds but besides my starter Hunchbacks I only own two Thunderbolts (and an assault mech I don't pilot much).
I want to master the Thunderbolt before moving on to anything else.

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The Thunderbolt is not a 'mech for doing the thing you're trying to do- you can coax it into that behavior, but the activity you've described is better suited to a Quickdraw or one of the heavier Medium 'mechs. I'm fully aware I'm doing something similar when I run the Greast, but that's mostly a 'for the lulz' build anyway (despite its weirdly amazing performance).

I suppose I could invest in a Quickdraw someday...even though they don't look all that great.
And I hate its size.
The Wolverine is completely awful looking compared to the Thunderbolt

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Heavy 'mechs are an interesting niche, you see- it's in the 65-75 tonne range that you get the highest efficiency out of all 'mechs ever. A 70 ton 'mech going a given speed will have a larger percentage of its total weight for equipment than any other weight of 'mech (assuming all 'mechs are maximum armor). The Thud is slightly less efficient than that, but not a whole lot- and with its barrelly shape, weird cockpit position, and lower base engine size, it's clearly meant to be a thing running around with a bunch of weapons, not a few-weapon specialist.

So the 9SE should really be trying to use all its weapon hardpoints instead of a few "strong" weapons?

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The role you're describing is typically assigned to lightly-modified Dragons, the Griffin, and the Wolverine (both in tabletop and in MWO, interestingly), who all do it better than the Thud does- which is why it gets given to them. They're designed and specialized for that sort of work. The Thud... isn't.

Dragon's look great but that CT....ouch And they can't jump.
The Griffin! Now there's a mech I might like. Its got jump jets, can carry a PPC, some LRMs, and some other backup support weapon. . . like maybe 4 SL... hmmm

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It's not really a specialist for anything, unless 'endurance' counts as a specialty in this game (jury seems to still be out on that). It's a great stepping stone and remarkably flexible in that it can do a lot of things, but it doesn't do any specialist roles nearly as good as specialized 'mechs for those roles do.

Actually from what I read in these forums, apparently endurance is the TDR's specialty! Because we all know it's kind of hard to give it a weapon specialty.

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Not to say that you can't run your Thud that way, but... keep that in mind.

Thank you very much!

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Defender Rococo Rockfowl, on 09 October 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

Probably the best MWO advice I've read this year!
But that advice doesn't go for all tactics, right? A harrasser for example isn't going to use the same tactics a brawler would.
I've seen snipers just hang back and snipe at an assault (or its escort -- an ECM light). Every time that ECM light got hit with a PPC our team could target all of the enemy for a few seconds, and everyone took advantage.

This advice is not about tactics, it's about capability. I'm not saying you should constantly be trying to get into 30-second engagements.

You have to be able to hack it in close combat (long-range extended firefights are optional) for 30 seconds or so, because if a light 'mech or agile medium jumps you and you can't, then you're going to have a lot of very bad moments. It's for just this reason that I had a game in my CDA-2A Singe- a non-ECM Cicada- where I took out a Dire Wolf and a Nova face-to-face and still went on to tear apart a Battlemaster's legs completely and rear-core a Trebuchet- and I faced the Dire Wolf first. The Dire Wolf was in a spamgun config with a bunch of LB-Xs, and the Nova was packing So Many Lasers- and both of them were overheating with all their misses, leaving them wide open for me to tear their CTs out from in front.

It's much less of a concern with long range support, but if you're using the same weapons at close range as at long range...

Defender Rococo Rockfowl, on 09 October 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

What do you think of 3 small lasers as a backup to a standard PPC?
9 damage and 6 heat as opposed to 3 ML's 15 damage and 16 heat. That's more heat than an ERPPC! And at a severly reduced range.

I think that's going to be a very hard distance switch to monitor. Remember, small lasers do reduced damage beyond 100m and only even reach 200m (with something like .1 damage each) and the PPC does diddly-squat the moment your target passes within 90 meters. I'd go with a pair of medium lasers rather than three smalls in that instance- the heat per volley is comparable, the damage is the same, but the ranges overlap enough that in many emergencies you could offload a heftier strike and then duck for cover.

Defender Rococo Rockfowl, on 09 October 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

One of the things that use to drive me NUTS when I was a HBK-4G pilot was the twiddling of thumbs I'd have to do for the first two minutes of the battle when no one was within range of my weapons. The long range is a big reason I like PPCs -- that and the "all at once" damage.

Except that with the current projectile speed, PPCs and ERPPCs aren't as good as they used to be for long-range combat. PPCs function much better at about 300-450 meters than they do at 500+ these days (and ERPPCs do well out to about 600 or so), but with the reach on AC/2s, AC/5s, Gauss, LRMs, and ER Large Lasers, 300-600m is medium range.

Defender Rococo Rockfowl, on 09 October 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

Agree that the LRM10 is a better choice. The LRM is a supplementale weapon for me and honestly I'll be only likely to use it on targets that are NARC'd or are persistently being TAG'd.

How often are you in a group when you play? I ask because if it's not fairly frequent, you shouldn't bother with an LRM rack that's going to be used only on guaranteed assist- that's a fairly big chunk of tonnage between the rack and the ammo that could be going to something that supports what you do all the time. I'm all for diversity in 'mech builds, but there's also a point of reason too. If you find you have consistently NARC'd or TAGged targets most of the time, go ahead and keep the LRMs, but I'd be inclined to swap them out for some combination of heat sinks and/or alternative weapons unless I was planning on using them whenever I got the chance.

Defender Rococo Rockfowl, on 09 October 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

The reason I went with SRM6 over ML is 13 damage/4heat over three ML's 15 damage and 16 heat.
I suppose if I swapped the ERPPC for a PPC, 3ML might be valid BUT still much too hot for close range combat.
One SRM4+one ML at about 14 damage/7 heat... hmmm definitely a compromise but because I've got a PPC I'm not really concerned about ammo dependency. And I protect the right arm most.

The three medium lasers is only much too hot for close combat because you're running around with just ten heat sinks. Even for just using the ERPPC, those ten heat sinks are on the poor side, never mind throwing in close combat weapons, jump jets, and a supplementary missile rack. By current standards, you're badly undersinked for leaning on a heavy energy weapon as your main mode of engagement. If you notice, the recommendation I made first involved adding heat sinks. Why you keep skimping on extra sinks is beyond me.

Defender Rococo Rockfowl, on 09 October 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

Yes I agree completely. I saw a Summoner (I'm certain it was a stock build from the weapon loadout) and a Spider (ERLL and machine guns that had run out of ammo) once running around each other shooting at each other for probably a full minute, maybe longer!
I felt as if I was aging watching the battle because of how long it took for the spider to die.

I'm only not surprised that the spider lost because it was out of machine gun ammo. Remember, light 'mechs will go for the rear or the legs about 80-85% of the time if they're in close combat. That's because a chronic meme in MWO is under-armoring the legs (especially when stocking ammo there). Light pilots expect heavy and especially assault 'mechs to underarmor their legs, so they go for the pantsing of death a lot- and it usually works.

Defender Rococo Rockfowl, on 09 October 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

Thanks very much for the builds but besides my starter Hunchbacks I only own two Thunderbolts (and an assault mech I don't pilot much).
I want to master the Thunderbolt before moving on to anything else.

This makes sense. I recommend trying alternative purposes for your Thud, it makes an excellent front-liner for a heavy 'mech, can pull off a number of assault-support tricks, and has the varied hardpoints that make it a good choice for experimentation (similar to how the Hunchback's sheer diversity of variants is good for newer players to figure out what they want to do in the future and what they are/aren't already good at).

Defender Rococo Rockfowl, on 09 October 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

I suppose I could invest in a Quickdraw someday...even though they don't look all that great.
And I hate its size.

The size of the Quickdraw is slightly overestimated (it crouches when active, a bit), but is also part of what makes it a good choice for what you're trying to do with this Thud- while it's a bit of a target when it stays in the open, a Quickdraw that leverages its high shoulder mounts and high engine cap (and tiny side torsos) makes an excellent 'I'm over here, no I'm over here, why are you looking that way- I'm over here' pot-shotter. It's not an amazing 'mech, but as you could probably surmise, I like it.

Defender Rococo Rockfowl, on 09 October 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

The Wolverine is completely awful looking compared to the Thunderbolt

I said 'heavier mediums'. That includes the Wolverine, but also the Griffin (which is like a Wolverine but with less diverse variants), Shadow Hawk, and the Trebuchet, all of which have at least one variant that can do what you're doing here, while moving faster and sinking more heat (and in the case of the Hugh Jackson and the Griff, jumping farther and faster).

Defender Rococo Rockfowl, on 09 October 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

So the 9SE should really be trying to use all its weapon hardpoints instead of a few "strong" weapons?

I wouldn't say all the weapon hardpoints, but mounting only three weapons on a 'mech that has seven to nine hardpoints (mostly eight) is a bit wasteful unless every one of those weapons is clearly superior to two-three smaller weapons mounted in its place. Right now what you're doing is combining an LRM-15 (a heavier, lower-heat alternative to a heavy beam weapon OR a lighter, hotter alternative to a long-range ballistic weapon), an SRM-6 (a heavier, cooler, ammo-dependent alternative to small beam weapons), and a PPC (a hot, heavy long-range weapon) to.... considerably less than optimal effect.

On the upside, you've got a lot of substitution options. If you swap out that LRM-15 for something lighter, you can spare room for more heat sinks or more close-range weaponry. If you swap out the PPC for shorter range or lighter energy weapons, you can spare room and tonnage for more weapons or heat sinks (PPC => ERLL + 2DHS is not a bad trade in this case). If you swap out the SRM-6 for two medium lasers, you spare two tons for more heat sinks as well.

Anyways, there are very few 'mechs that should be trying to use absolutely every hardpoint, but if you've got three entire weapon groups and each one is a single weapon, that's often a sign that you could be doing what you're doing better than you've been doing it.

Defender Rococo Rockfowl, on 09 October 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

Dragon's look great but that CT....ouch And they can't jump.

True, but they have slightly more flexible weapons mountings than the Quickdraw, less of a tendency to lose legs, and the ability to mount ballistics. This is their exchange on the Quickdraw's high shoulder mounts, jump capacity, and ability to mount noticeable missiles. The two frames are the same weight and same speeds, so they're very comparable. You just have to mind terrain more in the DRG- which is good practice, really.

Defender Rococo Rockfowl, on 09 October 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

The Griffin! Now there's a mech I might like. Its got jump jets, can carry a PPC, some LRMs, and some other backup support weapon. . . like maybe 4 SL... hmmm

And it's fast enough to reliably close range for the small lasers. If you do like the Griffin, consider the Wolverine too- the Wolverine has more diverse variants and a head hardpoint, while the Grif seems to be slightly more friendly to XL engines. Otherwise their stats are virtually identical (except for that Wolverine that can't jump).

Defender Rococo Rockfowl, on 09 October 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

Thank you very much!

Happy to help. I love building 'mechs and experimenting with things, so while I may not always know Just What To Do™, I like to think my build advice (in terms of ways to think, etc.) is pretty solid.

-QKD-CR0

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 10 October 2014 - 03:34 PM.

[Elizander]

After playing with my Dragons I adapted the same thing for my Thunderbolt. To simplify the current game (and since my ping makes me lose a lot of damage with lasers) I've been sticking with AC/10 + PPC (or ER PPC) combinations. It was a bit tight on my Dragons but the Thunderbolt carries the AC10+2xPPC pretty well with space to spare for heatsinks and extra ammo if needed.

TDR-5S

Good platform for delivering 30 point alphas and moves pretty quick too. I think I'll finally get around to leveling them to elite now that my dragons are done.

[Defender Rococo Rockfowl]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 10 October 2014 - 03:30 PM, said:

This advice is not about tactics, it's about capability. I'm not saying you should constantly be trying to get into 30-second engagements.
You have to be able to hack it in close combat (long-range extended firefights are optional) for 30 seconds or so, because if a light 'mech or agile medium jumps you and you can't, then you're going to have a lot of very bad moments. It's for just this reason that I had a game in my CDA-2A Singe- a non-ECM Cicada- where I took out a Dire Wolf and a Nova face-to-face and still went on to tear apart a Battlemaster's legs completely and rear-core a Trebuchet- and I faced the Dire Wolf first. The Dire Wolf was in a spamgun config with a bunch of LB-Xs, and the Nova was packing So Many Lasers- and both of them were overheating with all their misses, leaving them wide open for me to tear their CTs out from in front.

It's much less of a concern with long range support, but if you're using the same weapons at close range as at long range...

Though I only pug drop, I have a tendency to stick with the main force and to encourage the main force to group. I only get caught alone if my team has been killed off. So... I can see your point.

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I think that's going to be a very hard distance switch to monitor. Remember, small lasers do reduced damage beyond 100m and only even reach 200m (with something like .1 damage each) and the PPC does diddly-squat the moment your target passes within 90 meters. I'd go with a pair of medium lasers rather than three smalls in that instance- the heat per volley is comparable, the damage is the same, but the ranges overlap enough that in many emergencies you could offload a heftier strike and then duck for cover.

I did experiment with the PPC after reading this and you're right: in the heat of battle, distance management is a bit of a pain in the ass. That and the PPC's range isn't as sufficient as I thought it'd be.
And let's say you have for example, a brace of mediums in your left torso and your LT is blown away, all you're left with is a weapon that is useless when they try to hug you. And we all know they will. So I'll stick with the ERPPC.

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Except that with the current projectile speed, PPCs and ERPPCs aren't as good as they used to be for long-range combat. PPCs function much better at about 300-450 meters than they do at 500+ these days (and ERPPCs do well out to about 600 or so), but with the reach on AC/2s, AC/5s, Gauss, LRMs, and ER Large Lasers, 300-600m is medium range.

You're overall correct but I have had enough encounters with long range enemies who either didn't see me or didn't care and so I manage to get some hits in often enough to have me convinced I'll keep using PPC's.
PGI really should restore the ERPPC/PPC's speed though. But that's another point for another topic, not here in the Thunderbolt post

Ah and you mention lasers. I have a terrible time trying to hit any moving enemies (anything faster than 80 kph) with lasers who are more than 100M away. I guess I should have mentioned by now that my ping is always around 300. I opened a support ticket with PGI 2 weeks ago but no reply.
And I keep reading that lasers and high ping don't mix. I wonder how true that is?

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How often are you in a group when you play? I ask because if it's not fairly frequent, you shouldn't bother with an LRM rack that's going to be used only on guaranteed assist- that's a fairly big chunk of tonnage between the rack and the ammo that could be going to something that supports what you do all the time. I'm all for diversity in 'mech builds, but there's also a point of reason too. If you find you have consistently NARC'd or TAG'd targets most of the time, go ahead and keep the LRMs, but I'd be inclined to swap them out for some combination of heat sinks and/or alternative weapons unless I was planning on using them whenever I got the chance.

Not at all unless forced into it by some PGI campaign. Then I head over to the NGNG & ComStar TS rooms and hook up with random people.
That being said, many pugs I'm in do have TAG'ers & NARC'ers
I'll get to LRMs in a second.

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The three medium lasers is only much too hot for close combat because you're running around with just ten heat sinks. Even for just using the ERPPC, those ten heat sinks are on the poor side, never mind throwing in close combat weapons, jump jets, and a supplementary missile rack. By current standards, you're badly undersinked for leaning on a heavy energy weapon as your main mode of engagement. If you notice, the recommendation I made first involved adding heat sinks. Why you keep skimping on extra sinks is beyond me.

Yes you are correct as I found out on Terra Therma. I realized even good heat management wasn't enough and afterwards traded a few JJs for heatsinks and it was a very good choice.

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I'm only not surprised that the spider lost because it was out of machine gun ammo. Remember, light 'mechs will go for the rear or the legs about 80-85% of the time if they're in close combat. That's because a chronic meme in MWO is under-armoring the legs (especially when stocking ammo there). Light pilots expect heavy and especially assault 'mechs to underarmor their legs, so they go for the pantsing of death a lot- and it usually works.

Yes which is why all my builds wear pants I don't under armor the legs for more [whatever].
It's a good point.

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This makes sense. I recommend trying alternative purposes for your Thud, it makes an excellent front-liner for a heavy 'mech, can pull off a number of assault-support tricks, and has the varied hardpoints that make it a good choice for experimentation (similar to how the Hunchback's sheer diversity of variants is good for newer players to figure out what they want to do in the future and what they are/aren't already good at).

I have to work on a 5S now so I can Elite the 9Se so ... now looking at alternative purposes.

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The size of the Quickdraw is slightly overestimated (it crouches when active, a bit), but is also part of what makes it a good choice for what you're trying to do with this Thud- while it's a bit of a target when it stays in the open, a Quickdraw that leverages its high shoulder mounts and high engine cap (and tiny side torsos) makes an excellent 'I'm over here, no I'm over here, why are you looking that way- I'm over here' pot-shotter. It's not an amazing 'mech, but as you could probably surmise, I like it.

I never noticed this so I'll have to hang with one and watch it in game. That being said, I don't see them a lot even though they look pretty good.

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I said 'heavier mediums'. That includes the Wolverine, but also the Griffin (which is like a Wolverine but with less diverse variants), Shadow Hawk, and the Trebuchet, all of which have at least one variant that can do what you're doing here, while moving faster and sinking more heat (and in the case of the Hugh Jackson and the Griff, jumping farther and faster).

Out of those I'd be inclined to try the Griffin. The Shadowhawk is too "meta" for me. I always seem to root for the underdog

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[[weapon hardpoints]]

So I chewed on your food for thought and then took out my preference: 4JJ, ERPPC, SRM6 +1T, LRM15+1T
and tried this: 2JJ, ERPPC, SRM6+SRM4+2T ammo, extra heat sinks. It did much better.
Actually got a kill with the SRMs.

Then experimented with:
2JJ, ERPPC, 2xLRM5+2T ammo, extra heat sinks, and 4 SL.
Starting to get kills now! Actually got three in one match.
Edited to show the smurfy.
Thanks again Mr Crobat!

Edited by Defender Rococo Rockfowl, 14 October 2014 - 09:37 PM.

[Sam Slade]

The 9SE can mount 3xMedPulsLas, ALRM15(21/2 tonnes ammo), TAG, PPC, Endo, Ferro, 4xJumpJets AND a STD275 engine.

Think for a moment about just how mobile that makes a mech that can hit solidly from max range to min range. Amazingly, it also rides the heat curve from that combination quite well... it is a side torso muncher without equal.

Just for the sake of clarity vis a vis heat; you don't fire everything all the time with this one. 3xMedPulsLas put out a really hefty chunk of damage and will usually destroy an exposed side torso with one alpha and followed by 1 or 2 chainfire shots... and before that hits the enemy you've been advancing steadily hiting them with concentrated LRMs and PPC blasts to the side torso... now apply that formula to all the enemy mechs you can see while sticking with your team... by the time you get to brawl range there are quite a few torsos waitin to pop... you man not get kills but you will sure rack up the damage and GXP.

Edited by Sam Slade, 11 October 2014 - 08:05 PM.

[Defender Rococo Rockfowl]

Hello again,
Reread and all these posts over the weekend, which I spent doing the challenge (got all three knick knacks ) and leveling my third Thunderbolt (TDR5S) to get my elite access for the 9SE.

Quickdraw Crobat, on 02 October 2014 - 04:53 PM, said:

The TDR-9SE Greast...

There's a slight improvement that could be made but I think you already knew that

Quickdraw Crobat, on 05 October 2014 - 12:31 AM, said:

This depends a lot on what you want to do with it.
...
XL engines in Thuds are hard to make work- you have to pick an engine large enough to benefit from, or find a way to make the lower endurance acceptable.
...Keeping the PPC on the torso your cockpit is mounted to guarantees you can shoot whatever you see even when peeking out of cover, unless you're peeking over something.
...
I wouldn't recommend using an XL in the 9S- the main draw points of the 9S are the high-mount right shoulder energy points (good for sniping over obstacles) and the dual AMSes (good for putting up a missile umbrella during sniping/missiling combat or adding further durability when brawling).
...
XL engines aren't terribly advantageous to either shoulder-sniping or leveraging durability, so the 9S is a bad match for that.
...
That said, you could always accept being slow and use that to pack on the weaponry.

Seeing this in a different light now:
For anyone who wants a sniper build I think that the chin-mounted and/or shoulder-mounted PPCs mixed with XL would make a great shoulder-sniping platform because it should be used at long range and optimally using hill cover. Pop-up, release a shot, and immediately fall right back down to cover.
A fast XL is helpful for that for that increased necessary mobility.
I realize the PPC is not the best choice for a long range sniping weapon but one good thing about it is that if you've popped up and then are back down to cover, the enemy may not have seen where the shot came from.
Though ERLL are best for extreme range sniping, it is immediately known to all enemies where the snipe is coming from.

And obviously a mech like that, even with close range backup weapons, will still be taken down once a side torso is opened.

But as you stated, it "depends a lot on what you want to do with it."

BTW what's your opinion of Gauss Rifle builds? I ask because

Mizeur, on 23 August 2014 - 06:12 PM, said:

6xML+1xGauss on the 9S.

so I gave a GR build a shot and found it rather successful on Alpine.


I feel I've finally come to understand the Thunderbolt:
It's crux is its high endurance. It can take a LOT of damage before finally falling, especially when played right (torso twist damage spreading).
Because of this, if you're on the winning team, that endurance will substantially increase your chance of living until the end of the match, and more time in match means a potentially higher damage count at the end

What I've noted so far is any Tbolt can energy boat pretty well, with some builds doing it better than others.

The 5S can fulfill any role the Catapult C1 can (and vice versa) but the C1 can take an XL with less risk and can mount jump jets while the 5S can immediately fire all LRMs without having to wait for missile doors to open.

IMHO XL's are bad for brawler builds on this chassis because you can NOT tank well with XL and once you are the target of focus fire, you're dead in 3 seconds instead of 30.

In short,

• 9SE: Striker. Not having at least a few JJs in this is a waste.
  
• 9S,5S,5SS: mini-assault mechs. Load up lots of heavy weapons and hang with the other assaults.

Side note: The Clans have a "Thunderbolt" too. Us folks from the Inner Sphere call it a "Thor."

[oldradagast]

Based on my experiences, the answer is: fire support.

Thud's strengths: Some high-mounted weapons, either a mix of energy and missile, or all missile weapons. They also can roll damage well. They have a decent mix of hardpoints, though this is also a weakness...

Thud's weaknesses: Scattered hardpoints, both in type and location. This makes them rather mediocre at boating much of anything (except for energy, I guess). They also are rather bulky, so when an enemy is close enough to hit want he wants, Thuds can fall apart since they can't roll damage as well up close.

Summary: These traits tend to make them ideal for hanging in the middle distance, raining a mix of LRM's and PPC's down on targets. Up close, they can use medium lasers and machine guns for point defense. You CAN build a brawling Thud, but such builds are less than ideal, IMHO.

I've had the best luck playing them in the middle distance, keeping pressure on a foe all game, while staying far enough back that my large size isn't a problem and where I don't have to try to outgun a Jagermech or something in a brawl.

[Defender Rococo Rockfowl]

Elizander, on 11 October 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

TDR-5S
Good platform for delivering 30 point alphas and moves pretty quick too.

That is a mean build! That XL though... I hate getting XL-ST-killed. If they CT-kill me I don't feel so bad about having XL
For this reason I primarily use STD these days

[Defender Rococo Rockfowl]

Eldagore, on 14 October 2014 - 02:50 PM, said:

all you solo cue [puggees] best watch out when my "tier 5"(LOL) t-bolts receive the most powerful quirks in the heavy class.

:bows: m(_ _)m

おはようございます、エルダゴールさん。

Please share a few smurfy diagrams of your Thunderbolts.
宜しくします

[Neput Z34]

"Friends don't let friends Atlas Thunderbolt XL"

If you insist on running a "Thud" please consider the following builds:

TDR-9S or TDR-9SE
Edit: Sorry forgot the TDR-5SS and the TDR-5S*
The 5S is a bit of a zombie-troll build, use your right torso as a meat shield,"bait".
As it has been stated you don't want to brawl in a any of Thunderbolts, standard engine or not.
Stay at "mid" range and provide fire support for the brawlers, or "hump" hills with those high mounted energy weapons, don't "hump" corners, because you will lose your side torsos and most of your weapons, especially on the 5S.

Edited by Neput Z34, 20 October 2014 - 05:11 PM.

[Trumpetteer]

What about something along the lines of this for the 9S? TDR-9S

[IllCaesar]

Made a 5S build around the inevitible quirks coming to the game in two weeks.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...950ec6a30b014ec

End up doing this the first match:

Spoiler

I think it'll work just fine once the quirks are implemented.