518 replies to this topic

[DocBach]

Heffay, on 23 January 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

There are dozens of posts about how this will improve gameplay.

There is also many ways to implement the system. Theirs is one. You have a different idea. That doesn't mean PGI's implementation is wrong, or not fun.

With the changes to everything to counter ECM, you ever think that it would just be easier to tone ECM down a bit instead of have everything it traditionally existed to counter counter it? You don't think its kind of silly to buff electronics so they can defeat electronic.... countermeasures?

[CeeKay Boques]

Roland, on 22 January 2014 - 03:33 PM, said:

Thank you.

One thing you might consider is running changes like this on a test server, so you can see exactly what kind of impact it's gonna have.

If we were in the throes of some deep Community Warfare or some competitive Ladder league I would agree with you. But... its just us. Lets just throw stuff on the wall and see what sticks at this point.

[Zyllos]

MustrumRidcully, on 23 January 2014 - 08:30 AM, said:

Well, the description Thomas gave back then and Paul's description seem different - Thomas merely describes you being able to target an enemy with a Narc even if he's inside an ECM field, but Paul's description sounds like it would completely disable ECM.

But... well, the information is vague. Cannot someone else but me stop being lazy and test Narc in game and tell us if the feature Thomas describes still works? I am almost certain it used to, but it's been so long.

Yes, and personally, I like Thomas' change idea MUCH better. It should not completely counter GECM but instead just let others target the NARC'ed mech.

[Roland]

Technoviking, on 23 January 2014 - 08:36 AM, said:

If we were in the throes of some deep Community Warfare or some competitive Ladder league I would agree with you. But... its just us. Lets just throw stuff on the wall and see what sticks at this point.

If they were making constant changes every week, that'd be cool.

But what has happened in the past is that they made changes, broke everything, and folks freaked out... and the result is that they then slowed their pace of changes to a snail's pace.

I'm actually less worried about them breaking stuff, and more worried that if they break stuff it'll kill their motivation to make more changes.

This is why I'd really like to see a real test server, where the devs just constantly change stuff and throw it up there... because they'd be able to do so without any fear. Which would, in turn, hopefully result in a faster change process.

Zyllos, on 23 January 2014 - 08:36 AM, said:

Yes, and personally, I like Thomas' change idea MUCH better. It should not completely counter GECM but instead just let others target the NARC'ed mech.

At some point in the past, this actually worked, I believe.

We ran some joke builds, with catapults carrying 90 LRM's.

I'd narc a target, and we'd have multiple catapults fire a full volley of 90 LRM's at them, so that all the missiles would hit at the same time, thus bypassing the narc's deactivation on damage.

It was hillarious... I wish I had made some videos.

When a mech gets hit simultaneously by 270 lrm's (especially with the old LRM flights) it looked like a comet fell out of the sky onto their mech.

[Mister Blastman]

Roland, on 23 January 2014 - 08:43 AM, said:

If they were making constant changes every week, that'd be cool.

I would love to see a concerted effort to make strong, aggressive balance changes on a weekly basis. It would motivate myself and others to play more.

[Heffay]

DocBach, on 23 January 2014 - 08:35 AM, said:

With the changes to everything to counter ECM, you ever think that it would just be easier to tone ECM down a bit instead of have everything it traditionally existed to counter counter it? You don't think its kind of silly to buff electronics so they can defeat electronic.... countermeasures?

Not silly at all. Mimics real life to boot. ECCM is an important part of modern warfare.

There are now tactical decisions that have to be made before you even leave the mechbay. Loading up a NARC provides a ton of benefits at 4 tons of cost. Will you have LRMs on your team? Will they have snipers that need to be suppressed? Do you load up an AMS (or a second one where applicable) if you know you're dropping against an LRM heavy opponent?

One (ok, two) simple changes dramatically shifted the landscape, and that is good. Role warfare is buffed. Lights are buffed. Snipers nerfed. ECM a bit more balanced. Just because it doesn't operate exactly the way you want it to doesn't mean this change is bad, or useless.

[Mad Porthos]

Best to just wait and see on this one for what ends up happening. The number of times they have acknowledged NARC needs this is staggering. They have even acknowledged in the past that one big missing part of NARC is that in lore and TT that they draw upon for inspiration, NARC worked for common SRMs giving them streak like accuracy, at least rivaling artemis but of course with the downside that a spotter has to carry a whole narc unit, 4 tons at least w ammo, to get this advantage for thier other SRMs and those of thier teams.

As one can clearly see on Sarna, whole loadouts in canon reflect this, and the absence of this from MWO naturally neuters builds that in the original material, using this feature, could COMPETE with clan streaks through these means. Even some of the secondary vehicles seen in battletech, such as tanks and SRM CARRIERS had NARC, because of this feature and what it meant for the effectiveness of the SRM CARRIER's SRMs.

Edited by Mad Porthos, 23 January 2014 - 08:51 AM.

[DocBach]

Heffay, on 23 January 2014 - 08:46 AM, said:

Not silly at all. Mimics real life to boot. ECCM is an important part of modern warfare.

There are now tactical decisions that have to be made before you even leave the mechbay. Loading up a NARC provides a ton of benefits at 4 tons of cost. Will you have LRMs on your team? Will they have snipers that need to be suppressed? Do you load up an AMS (or a second one where applicable) if you know you're dropping against an LRM heavy opponent?

One (ok, two) simple changes dramatically shifted the landscape, and that is good. Role warfare is buffed. Lights are buffed. Snipers nerfed. ECM a bit more balanced. Just because it doesn't operate exactly the way you want it to doesn't mean this change is bad, or useless.

OK, that's pretty awesome. You have to make all kinds of tactical and loadout considerations and careful consideration when loading your team out for combat in anticipation of cancelling enemy ECM assets.

How much of that do you need to successfully employ ECM?

[Mawai]

Wow ... consider this ...

NARC an ECM mech ... no ECM for 30 seconds and you can blast it to pieces with LRM.

I really, really, really hope that they properly test this change or LRMs could become OP again.

On the other hand, NARC really needs some improvement to justify its use.

However, will NARC allow you to fire LRM at a NARCed mech inside an ECM shield? The PPC effect is usually only applied to the ECM mech itself when hit.

Also, does NARC provide any additional benefit besides targeting?

Anyway, much testing required ...

[DocBach]

Narc pretty much tags a target like a shark and lets you track it no matter where it goes.

Now ECM will not protect you from it.

In classic Battletech, Narc pretty much tagged you like a shark and let indirect fire be made against you even without a spotter; ECM was your refuge from this.

Pretty much now with how electronic warfare is handled in this game, once you get Narc'd expect to have to turtle up forever behind a hill or eat a zillion LRM's.

The problem isn't that Narc didn't have enough usefulness, its that ECM has over-reaching usefulness and is now necessitating everything it is suppose to protect against counter its ability.

Further, though - if ECM was toned down to not counter LRM's at all, you'd get a zillion LRM's shooting at you once you poked your head out even without being NARC'd like the LRMpocolypses we've had.

hmmmmmmmm

I believe the answer for the problem is provided to us by Tactical Operations rules for ECM - break up ECM's function into three modes to where in certain modes it counters other information warfare pieces but other modes of function like missile defense that are countered by Beagle/Narc.

Edited by DocBach, 23 January 2014 - 09:12 AM.

[Heffay]

DocBach, on 23 January 2014 - 08:51 AM, said:

OK, that's pretty awesome. You have to make all kinds of tactical and loadout considerations and careful consideration when loading your team out for combat in anticipation of cancelling enemy ECM assets.

How much of that do you need to successfully employ ECM?

You have to choose a mech that has ECM instead of something else that may be better suited for the role.

When weight limits are implemented, are you still planning on bringing 4 D-DCs in your 12 man drop? There'll be a significant consequence to that decision.

Edited by Heffay, 23 January 2014 - 09:15 AM.

[DocBach]

So really, there is no tactical decision made other than deciding to use a 'Mech with ECM, which are also just by chance the versions of the chassis with the best, preferred hardpoints, because any consideration dealing with weight does not exist.

Sounds like a lot of tactical consideration must be used to employ ECM, I stand mistaken.

Back to the topic of Narc - Ironically, the things that ECM defended against will leave players defenseless against them, like Narc.

To reiterate, if ECM is going to have a missile defense mode, don't make it the standard mode. Ghost target mode from the lore spams the enemy radar with white noise to increase lock on time. Get rid of the stealth field, as stealth is suppose to be granted by Stealth Armor (go figure!); targets in an ECM field can be targeted and tracked, but lock on times are increased. Narc and Beagle would counter this mode. To simulate the white noise to sensors, the closer you get to a 'Mech in a Ghost ECM field, the more static appears on HUD elements like radar/damage readout, and the longer target information like chassis type/damage readout takes to update

Disrupt would also have to get rid of the target and tracking defeat, or else Ghost mode would be rendered useless. To provide denial of information targeted 'Mechs in a disrupt field would not be identified, and no target information would be given -- you could track the target on radar but you would not know what it is or what it is carrying. Disrupt mode protects against the effects of Narc beacon and Beagle; if you get hit by a Narc pod and the enemy can track you wherever you go, being under a disrupt bubble stops that.

Make information warfare multi-tiered and require actual tactical decisions, rather than having one box in one mode do everything.

[Sybreed]

DocBach, on 23 January 2014 - 08:51 AM, said:

OK, that's pretty awesome. You have to make all kinds of tactical and loadout considerations and careful consideration when loading your team out for combat in anticipation of cancelling enemy ECM assets.

How much of that do you need to successfully employ ECM?

here's a word of advice: Arguing with Heffay is a bit like trying to swallow of spoonful of cinnamon. It sounds like something you could do at first, but when you go at it you immediately regret the idea.

[Kjudoon]

Mawai, on 23 January 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

Wow ... consider this ...

NARC an ECM mech ... no ECM for 30 seconds and you can blast it to pieces with LRM.

I really, really, really hope that they properly test this change or LRMs could become OP again.

On the other hand, NARC really needs some improvement to justify its use.

However, will NARC allow you to fire LRM at a NARCed mech inside an ECM shield? The PPC effect is usually only applied to the ECM mech itself when hit.

Also, does NARC provide any additional benefit besides targeting?

Anyway, much testing required ...

LRMs becoming OP then? Hardly. All it is really gonna do is end bad pilots getting away with tactically stupid moves by OP ECM. I watch way too many ECM mech pilots being sloppy and arrogant because they have ECM. When I watch ECM counter LOS and TAG combined on getting a lock... it's OP and you need to be taught a lesson. Learn to use cover to get out of the rain just like a non-ECM mech instead of playing the flaw and ignoring weak piloting skills. From now on, you're gonna be looking over your shoulder wondering if you got narced while trying to run across the 2 Line valley on Caustic in a 55kph Stalker becausee you won't make it to the Caldera or any cover anymore... and you SHOULD be afraid of because everyone else without ECM is.

Edited by Kjudoon, 23 January 2014 - 09:52 AM.

[Flying Judgement]

nice after more than a year waiting somthing is abouth to change. i hope we gona see more of these
Knocdown hint

by the way
is this an indication we gonna get the Javelin?

[Heffay]

Sybreed, on 23 January 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

here's a word of advice: Arguing with Heffay is a bit like trying to swallow of spoonful of cinnamon. It sounds like something you could do at first, but when you go at it you immediately regret the idea.

It's more like arguing against Einstein. Even if you're right, nobody is going to believe you anyway.

[DocBach]

Sybreed, on 23 January 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

here's a word of advice: Arguing with Heffay is a bit like trying to swallow of spoonful of cinnamon. It sounds like something you could do at first, but when you go at it you immediately regret the idea.

He's got his own opinion, and one that I can respect and agree with; it might not be my preferred way information warfare is handled and I have to accept how it is currently implemented.

However, these forums exist for me to be able to say I don't like it, and this is how I would do it - if the developers decide to use any of my ideas, great. If they don't, it won't stop me from putting them out.

[SerratedBlaze]

I interpreted this as: If an ECM holding mech is NARC'd its ECM is disabled for 30sec And it can be targeted indirectly by the shooter and his allies. However, if that NARC'd mech get into a different ECM bubble the NARC signal will be jammed.

This means that narc and ecm counter each other and 2 ECM will still be a hell of an obstacle. To me this sounds fine. If a non ecm is narced its simply targeted until time runs out or he finds an ecm ally to hide with. But ECM mechs will be specifically hunted by Narc for maximum performance.

It is unclear to me if NARC will still have any accuiring, grouping or pathing benefits for LRMS. I feel like it shouldn't since it performs the basic indirect target function and ecm counter. That way TAG still has benefits.

[Heffay]

DocBach, on 23 January 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

He's got his own opinion, and one that I can respect and agree with; it might not be my preferred way information warfare is handled and I have to accept how it is currently implemented.

However, these forums exist for me to be able to say I don't like it, and this is how I would do it - if the developers decide to use any of my ideas, great. If they don't, it won't stop me from putting them out.

Stop being reasonable. It's taking all the fun out of the argument.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I'm just not scared of this version of NARC...even when I don't have ECM, LRM's don't really scare me. Between movement, jump jets and cover...it's just not hard to avoid it.

I mean I guess using NARC you could scare someone into hiding for 30 seconds.

But half the problem in PUG's is...you bring NARC...but there is only one LRM boat...so it's basically a waste of time.

Everyone else is sporting PPC's/AC's/ER Large Lasers.