518 replies to this topic

[Kjudoon]

Expect the ECM Raven sniper to become the ultimate anti ECM mech. I love it. Looks like I'm going to grind to get one when I can play again.

[AlmightyAeng]

NARC Update.

[aniviron]

Okay, so it's great that NARC is actually sorta useful for the huge weight investment now (though not nearly as good as a UAV for 0 tons still) but now AMS is pretty much guaranteed to shoot down the NARC beacon now, which is still pretty bad.

[Kjudoon]

Someone ran the math in another thread. It's like a 20% chance or less AMS will shoot it down because it moves too darn fast. No I don't know where the link is, but... it's out there in charts if you want to search for it.

[Mcgral18]

I now want to take narc on every LRM boat I make....it's beautiful on some maps.

Caustic, we narc two Banshees. They ran down the caldera, out of the line of sight, but it made no difference. We rained on them for over 20 seconds before one went down, then we reapplied on the second. They melted under the rain...not an ounce of pinpoint frontloaded damage either...I like this buff. Makes different things viable.

Now, make SRMs work and I might just be happy with the state of balance.

[Reno Blade]

Kjudoon, on 18 March 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

Someone ran the math in another thread. It's like a 20% chance or less AMS will shoot it down because it moves too darn fast. No I don't know where the link is, but... it's out there in charts if you want to search for it.

Maybe this might help.

If I'm not mistaken and the module didn't change, the new AMS range of 120m means 128m with module and this is how it looks now.
(even with 200 or 216m maximum range shown in smurfy, there were about 4-5 LRMs shot down before and about the same after and only 1-2 Streaks and usually only 1 SRM depending on range to target and 0 Narc)

AMS missile kills depending on range/missletype:
Included the old 90m range, the new 120m range and the 128m range with module.


Missile speeds:
changed the LRMs to 175m/s (still is labeled as 120m/s, sorry)

[aniviron]

Reno Blade, on 18 March 2014 - 03:08 PM, said:

Maybe this might help.

If I'm not mistaken and the module didn't change, the new AMS range of 120m means 128m with module and this is how it looks now.
(even with 200 or 216m maximum range shown in smurfy, there were about 4-5 LRMs shot down before and about the same after and only 1-2 Streaks and usually only 1 SRM depending on range to target and 0 Narc)

AMS missile kills depending on range/missletype:
Included the old 90m range, the new 120m range and the 128m range with module.


Missile speeds:
changed the LRMs to 175m/s (still is labeled as 120m/s, sorry)

They're good-looking graphs, but don't come even close to matching the reality of what I am seeing in game. AMS is taking down way way way more than an average of 2.5 missiles.

[Kjudoon]

Some of it may be 'spread' and how bad the current system calculates hit percentage. Been hemming and hawwing this over a bit.

[wanderer]

My experiences so far:

NARC is a beautiful, beautiful ECM killer. Good grief, did we need more ECM killing. Soft counters ECM wonderfully, even with the weight relative to TAG. It -does- occasionally still glitch out a bit if everyone loses LOS to target- sometimes NARC will also cut off when this happens.

[aniviron]

I've been getting quite a few dud shots with NARC in the last day; not sure if it was always like this since I haven't bothered with NARC since the last time it got buffed. Still, it's depressingly common to have clear LOS on a stationary target in range, fire, and get no hit; this is absolutely unacceptable for a weapon that gets as little ammo as the NARC. Had situations where it takes 3-4 shots to hit a stationary target when I am also standing still, all shots going to the same place.

[AlmightyAeng]

aniviron, on 19 March 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

I've been getting quite a few dud shots with NARC in the last day; not sure if it was always like this since I haven't bothered with NARC since the last time it got buffed. Still, it's depressingly common to have clear LOS on a stationary target in range, fire, and get no hit; this is absolutely unacceptable for a weapon that gets as little ammo as the NARC. Had situations where it takes 3-4 shots to hit a stationary target when I am also standing still, all shots going to the same place.

I noticed this too...and was confused...until I realized there was more than one ECM in the area.

I'm thinking that, like BAP, NARC will counter ONE active ECM. Not multiples.

[aniviron]

Ghost Badger, on 19 March 2014 - 06:58 AM, said:

I noticed this too...and was confused...until I realized there was more than one ECM in the area.

I'm thinking that, like BAP, NARC will counter ONE active ECM. Not multiples.

That actually might be it; there was never AMS in the situations where I wasn't hitting, but there was ECM.

[Reno Blade]

aniviron, on 18 March 2014 - 03:52 PM, said:

They're good-looking graphs, but don't come even close to matching the reality of what I am seeing in game. AMS is taking down way way way more than an average of 2.5 missiles.

Yea, I had the impression the maximum range shown in smurfy (was 200m, now 240m) was the correct range instead of the 90m (now 120m).

I redone the graphs to have both ranges in it to make it easier to decide which one is actually happening.


Added the old LRM speed (120m/s) to the graph of speeds to have a nice comparison.

[ExAstris]

After having spent several rounds with the updated NARC:

Its a step in the right direction for sure. Its still only useful to LRM boats though, and at that, not nearly as useful as TAG.



Reasons why it won't get used by anything other than boats:
It only has two functions outside LRM spotting, position data without mech LOS and ECM countering. The former is done vastly better for scouts by the UAV and at no cost in the loadout. The latter is done vastly better by TAG and BAP, both for simplicity of use and effectiveness. TAG only requires occasional contact, and BAP is automatic, while NARC requires a slow moving projectile hit, something you're never going to reliably get against half the ECM mechs out there.


Reasons why boats will still use TAG:
It doesn't take a precious missile slot. It weights 4x less (or more if you take extra ammo). It isn't ammo dependent. It works out to 750m instead of just 450m. It is more reliable for highlighting smaller, faster mechs. It highlights over ECM regardless of multi-coverage. TAG stacks with Artemis, NARC does not.


Additional things that can be done to NARC to make it a real option for LRM users:
0. Remove the silly ECM cloaking field already (this is my number one fix for so many of MWO's problems, I couldn't help but note that it would help solve this imbalance on top of a half dozen others I could name)
1. Range increase to ~750m.
2. Let it broadcast over ECM, regardless of multi-coverage. (this option is for the insane who don't think 0 is a viable option)
3. Increase projectile speed so that lighter mechs can be NARCed more reliably.
4. Let NARC and Artemis stack (If the trifecta is too powerful, then just make it so that each of NARC, TAG, and Artemis provide the same bonuses, but the stacking effect is capped at two, so having the third effect active provides no additional benefits)




Personally, I think 0 is a pre-requisite to balancing this game, but assuming that's still barred from implementation due to belligerent stupidity unexplained reasons, then 1, 2, and 4 would be a great combo. TAG would still be a helluva lot cheaper to mount, easier to use, and would be much better at getting hits on lights, but for the costs, NARC will give you equal benefits at equal ranges with the sole bonus of allowing you to keep the lock well after breaking LOS. Its a potentially powerful advantage, but it does require more skill to use than TAG and requires at least 3 more tons of your loadout and one of your missile hardpoints, meaning you aren't boating as hard yourself.

[Kjudoon]

Reno Blade, on 19 March 2014 - 07:21 AM, said:

Yea, I had the impression the maximum range shown in smurfy (was 200m, now 240m) was the correct range instead of the 90m (now 120m).

I redone the graphs to have both ranges in it to make it easier to decide which one is actually happening.


Added the old LRM speed (120m/s) to the graph of speeds to have a nice comparison.

I love the math but I am still not sure on one thing. How many missiles are shot down from each launcher or is this per 5-10-15-20 or more?

Could you clarify that for me? Thanks

[ExAstris]

Kjudoon, on 19 March 2014 - 07:22 PM, said:

I love the math but I am still not sure on one thing. How many missiles are shot down from each launcher or is this per 5-10-15-20 or more?

Could you clarify that for me? Thanks

It doesn't shoot down missiles/launcher, it shoots down missiles/time.
Also, its current range is definitely 240-250m as its old range was 200m as noted in the breakdown long ago:
http://mwomercs.com/...0089-breakdown/
(The official patch notes are in error, and just a few minutes of in-game observation will confirm this)

So currently, if LRMs are fired at you from beyond 250m (and outside the 0.5s target update time and you aren't moving), your AMS will shoot down 7(ish) of them. It doesn't matter if they fired two LRM5s or a single 10 or a single 20 or 4x20, the AMS will have the time to down 7(ish) of the missiles before impact. If the shooter staggers his shots (for any reason) that gives your AMS more time to down more missiles. If you move towards the shooter, you're closing the gap faster and so your AMS has less time. Away gives you more time. Dual AMS gives you twice as many downed. If the shooter is aiming at an ally behind you, his missiles will travel through your AMS zone for longer and so they will shoot down even more missiles proportional to the time the enemy missiles spend in your AMS zone.

Running multiple dual-AMS mechs in a tight formation makes LRMs hilariously ineffectual. (3.5 missiles per AMS per second, so 4 dual AMS mechs could shoot down 28 missiles every second, which pretty much means anything using 40 tubes or less won't be able to do anything at all, and mechs with more can still be rather safely ignored until the AMS ammo runs out)

Edited by ExAstris, 19 March 2014 - 07:58 PM.

[Reno Blade]

Kjudoon, on 19 March 2014 - 07:22 PM, said:

I love the math but I am still not sure on one thing. How many missiles are shot down from each launcher or is this per 5-10-15-20 or more?

Could you clarify that for me? Thanks

ExAstris, on 19 March 2014 - 07:50 PM, said:

It doesn't shoot down missiles/launcher, it shoots down missiles/time.
Also, its current range is definitely 240-250m as its old range was 200m as noted in the breakdown long ago:
http://mwomercs.com/...0089-breakdown/
(The official patch notes are in error, and just a few minutes of in-game observation will confirm this)

So currently, if LRMs are fired at you from beyond 250m (and outside the 0.5s target update time and you aren't moving), your AMS will shoot down 7(ish) of them. It doesn't matter if they fired two LRM5s or a single 10 or a single 20 or 4x20, the AMS will have the time to down 7(ish) of the missiles before impact. If the shooter staggers his shots (for any reason) that gives your AMS more time to down more missiles. If you move towards the shooter, you're closing the gap faster and so your AMS has less time. Away gives you more time. Dual AMS gives you twice as many downed. If the shooter is aiming at an ally behind you, his missiles will travel through your AMS zone for longer and so they will shoot down even more missiles proportional to the time the enemy missiles spend in your AMS zone.

Running multiple dual-AMS mechs in a tight formation makes LRMs hilariously ineffectual. (3.5 missiles per AMS per second, so 4 dual AMS mechs could shoot down 28 missiles every second, which pretty much means anything using 40 tubes or less won't be able to do anything at all, and mechs with more can still be rather safely ignored until the AMS ammo runs out)

What ExAstris said with one change.
Where the old LRM speed and AMS Range (120ms/s and 200m) downed about 5 LRMs, the new values do about 4
You can see the difference in the graph in the lower left if you look at AMS(200) and LRM(120) (first purple spot at 5.8) vs AMS(240) and LRM(175) (second teal spot at 4.8):

And you can also see the only difference for AMS 200 vs AMS 240 for the other launchers is one more missile shot down on Streaks (from 3.5 to 4.2) in the SSRM(200) column.

Edited by Reno Blade, 20 March 2014 - 03:05 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

ExAstris, on 19 March 2014 - 07:50 PM, said:

It doesn't shoot down missiles/launcher, it shoots down missiles/time.
Also, its current range is definitely 240-250m as its old range was 200m as noted in the breakdown long ago:
http://mwomercs.com/...0089-breakdown/
(The official patch notes are in error, and just a few minutes of in-game observation will confirm this)

So currently, if LRMs are fired at you from beyond 250m (and outside the 0.5s target update time and you aren't moving), your AMS will shoot down 7(ish) of them. It doesn't matter if they fired two LRM5s or a single 10 or a single 20 or 4x20, the AMS will have the time to down 7(ish) of the missiles before impact. If the shooter staggers his shots (for any reason) that gives your AMS more time to down more missiles. If you move towards the shooter, you're closing the gap faster and so your AMS has less time. Away gives you more time. Dual AMS gives you twice as many downed. If the shooter is aiming at an ally behind you, his missiles will travel through your AMS zone for longer and so they will shoot down even more missiles proportional to the time the enemy missiles spend in your AMS zone.

Running multiple dual-AMS mechs in a tight formation makes LRMs hilariously ineffectual. (3.5 missiles per AMS per second, so 4 dual AMS mechs could shoot down 28 missiles every second, which pretty much means anything using 40 tubes or less won't be able to do anything at all, and mechs with more can still be rather safely ignored until the AMS ammo runs out)

And that's why the implementation of AMS means that you really, really, really want to boat LRMs, or not bother...

[Reno Blade]

Instead of one mech with 4 LRM15, you could add one LRM15 to 4 mechs and use more mixed loadouts.
But this would need more "skill" aka teamwork to work

[aniviron]

Reno Blade, on 20 March 2014 - 05:53 AM, said:

Instead of one mech with 4 LRM15, you could add one LRM15 to 4 mechs and use more mixed loadouts.
But this would need more "skill" aka teamwork to work

It would also require me having three friends who had yet to quit the game...

More realistically, it also is inefficient for reasons of ammo consumption. The more launchers you add, the more efficient you're going to be with ammo- if you have just one LRM15, a ton of ammo isn't enough, two tons are hard to justify. If you have four LRM15s, you can safely devote your whole mech to boating, and add 8-10 tons of ammo, freeing your close support teammates from having to use tonnage on ammo they might not be using; or for that matter, from a weapon system whose tonnage might not be useful if the ammo runs dry.