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What Is The Point Of Mediums?


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#101 Trauglodyte

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 08:43 AM

View PostByteHacker, on 27 January 2014 - 01:11 AM, said:

I truly believe that Mediums mechs are completely pointless ;) ,

Just look at that, pathetic damage. Only 866 for this match.

Posted Image


Congratulations! You found the Streak button and spammed it to the extreme. You, and people like you, are truely the elite of the skilled players in this game. I applaud you for showing the rest of us the errors of our way and will dedicate the rest of my life to following in your foot steps. I too wish that I can, some day, press the easy button as well as you.

/golf clap

Sarcasm to the poster above aside, people need to realize what Mediums are and what they aren't. Aside from the Cicada, which was built as a heavier scout and a scout predator (it doesn't live up to either in this game, sadly), Mediums were designed as Heavy and Assault supplementary mechs. Your job is to cruise around with the heavier mechs and add fire power to theirs. If you weren't designed to do that, you were either extremely niche designed (ie Hunchback for Urban combat), you were religated to picket defense of other mechs (ie Centurion), or you were sitting in the back as fire support (ie Trebuchet). Medium mechs were the most common because they were the most needed and cheapest to build. They were, for all intents and purposes, the Destroyers and Light Cruisers in the WWII Pacific fleets. They had decent fire power and speed but not enough of either of those or armor to take on Heavy Cruisers, Battle Cruisers, or Battleships. They stayed on the outside and added anti-aircraft firepower to combat the enemy Aircraft Carriers, hunted down Submarines, and added torpedo and ballistic fire support to the bigger, slower, and much less numbered heavier ships. Once you get that in your mind, you'll end up doing better in yoru Medium mech. But, you will never be as deadly or feared as the bigger mechs because you're easier to kill and lack the scary punch that the bigger mechs. So, play like the after thought that you are and take advantage of it. But, don't come here with really bad screen shots of "uber damage" and pretend like you're doing something special because you're not.

#102 LowSubmarino

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 08:51 AM

View PostIL MECHWARRIOR, on 25 January 2014 - 05:25 AM, said:

mediums are excellent, I play all classes and i am able to do more than 1000 damage with all classes. Mediums are ok, your driving skill is not
the medium must be used this way:


-fast
-heat efficiency 1.7 or higher on primary weapons


example
shadwohawk with 2 mdlas 2 ac 5 a lot of ammo and xl engine
bj 1 with 2 ac 2 and 4 mdlaser
bj3 with jj 2 ppcs at 1.68 heat and 2 smllas+1mdlas as secondary weapons

medium mech = EXPLOITER

you must go near atlases and stalkers and fight from second line, no one will shoot at you if they see an atlas to shoot at near you



1.7 heat efficient is exaggerated. With 1.4 or 1.5 you are perfectly set.

#103 A banana in the tailpipe

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 08:57 AM

If medium mechs are going to matter in MWO then rearm/reload needs to come back and be based on mech tonnage.

#104 MeiSooHaityu

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 09:03 AM

View Postlockwoodx, on 27 January 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

If medium mechs are going to matter in MWO then rearm/reload needs to come back and be based on mech tonnage.


I don't know.

I think Community Warfare with tonnage based goals or tonnage limit drops for groups as being the "better" answer.

just IMO.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 27 January 2014 - 09:05 AM.


#105 Trauglodyte

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 09:10 AM

View PostMeiSooHaityu, on 27 January 2014 - 09:03 AM, said:


I don't know.

I think Community Warfare with tonnage based goals or tonnage limit drops for groups as being the "better" answer.

just IMO.


Tonnage limites are coming so that is going to get checked off of the list. It will be interesting if PGI has different drop limits for specific maps/goalds once Community Warfare comes around. Regardless, the hard core gamers, or grognard (I just got introduced to that term last night and it makes me laugh a little), will game the tonnage limits by using a mixture of Jenners, Shawks, Phracts, Victors, and Highlanders. The rest of us will play what we want but it won't change what the upper tier guys do and that is what bothers me.

#106 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 09:13 AM

View Postlockwoodx, on 27 January 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

If medium mechs are going to matter in MWO then rearm/reload needs to come back and be based on mech tonnage.

Repair was based on that, but If I have an LRM15 on a medium, heavy or assault the cost to rearm should be constant as the per ton cost of ammo is constant.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 27 January 2014 - 09:31 AM.


#107 YueFei

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 09:27 AM

View Postmeteorol, on 27 January 2014 - 07:53 AM, said:


I really don't want to bust your bubble, but i think you grossly underestimate what good assault pilots can do.

If you are taking ac20's and PPCs to your arm, you are facing a bad assault pilot.
Infact, torso twisting becomes less effective the better your enemies are. This is not limited to assault pilots, it's true for every weight class. It's viable tactic in quite a few situations, but it won't help much in an open one on one against a pilot of equal skills.

Why?
Because a good pilot simply won't shoot your arms if there is no reason to. Period.
He will use the time to cool down, wait for you to twist back and put a juicy 30-40 point alpha right where he wants it to be. No matter how hard you twist, sooner or later you WILL have to face towards him if you want to get a shot off.
This will be the moment when you recieve his whole payload. And you won't take it to the arms, that's for sure.

Generally speaking: If you can hit his torso, he will be able to hit your torso too. Even if you make use of the maximum span of your arm mounted weapons your torso can still be hit in alot of mechs.

If you play against a pilot who know what he does, the duell will be decided through damage to the location it hurts the most. Twisting your torso won't make them shoot your arms. it just increases the time between the hits you take to said location.


Not exactly. If he is engaging from 700+ meters (he does say he's engaging at long range with 2xAC2), he has time to twist out of the way while the projectile is in the air (it'll take a PPC half a second to reach him). If caught ouf of cover, he can move towards cover while shielding with his arm. At that point the enemy pilot can either not shoot at all and deal 0 damage and let him slide into cover, or he can shoot and at least get some work done on removing the arm. And then, given the Centurion's hitboxes, he can continue using the arm stump to mitigate damage to the side torso by 50%, possibly absorbing over 130 damage before it's blown out. If he's running a STD engine, he can survive the loss of the ST, and then continue using the arm stump to mitigate CT damage by 25%, possibly absorbing 170+ damage before dying. Including the arm's 48 hitpoints, that's potentially 340+ points of damage the enemy has to deal to him to bring him down.

This isn't theoretical. I've seen very skilled pilots do the twist when engaging at long range (there's enough time to twist because of projectile travel time), and cover themselves up with their arms and side torsos if they get caught while crossing from cover to cover out in the open.

I kinda understand the principle he is applying. If anyone here has ever played Subspace:Continuum on the DeathStarBattles server, it's the same principle that makes the Warbird the #1 fighterplane for dueling. A combination of his acceleration, turn rate, and projectile speed means that there is a sweet spot range band where he can hit the enemy with perfectly-aimed shots, and dodge the enemy's perfectly aimed shots. There is a closer range band where the Warbird will get wrecked by heavier fighter planes, and a longer range band where both the Warbird and its opponent can *both* have time to dodge each other's projectiles. But using his agility he can slot himself into that sweet spot and tear apart his enemies. The dueling arena of DeathStarBattles was fought by pilots almost exclusively using Warbirds.

That being said, I'd be *very* curious to see video footage of him in action applying these principles against the top Assault mech and Heavy mech pilots. To me, I don't think his tactic will work well on alot of the early maps because they are so small, and in a game mode like Conquest, you can't win by not taking any territory and just perpetually giving the enemy the "Parthian shot". And if you get gang tackled by enemies who spread out a bit and take proper angles of pursuit, they'll pin you to the out-of-bounds boundary, and eventually one of them will get close enough to get an angle on his legs for a shot.

On a large MW4-style map with no fixed objectives to worry about? Yeah, I can picture him kiting the enemy all day long until they die.

#108 Almond Brown

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 09:50 AM

View PostTrauglodyte, on 27 January 2014 - 09:10 AM, said:


Tonnage limites are coming so that is going to get checked off of the list. It will be interesting if PGI has different drop limits for specific maps/goalds once Community Warfare comes around. Regardless, the hard core gamers, or grognard (I just got introduced to that term last night and it makes me laugh a little), will game the tonnage limits by using a mixture of Jenners, Shawks, Phracts, Victors, and Highlanders. The rest of us will play what we want but it won't change what the upper tier guys do and that is what bothers me.


What I hope to see is multiple varied drop weights for each of the goals provided. If they are doing a Contract based system, perhaps some Contracts could have a BID, clan style, for whatever weight the Contract buyer wants.

Example: Contract #2140-087 states a need to capture Sector 8 on Planet Dickinson. We take the Contract and as holders, we set the weight limit, based on what Intel we can gather about Dickinson. The Planet holders have no choice but to fight at the selected weight as per the Contract, as they will also, as some point, get to choose weight limits on their contracts.

That way if the "grognards" always want high tonnage based contract drops, they set high tonnage contracts, while others can set lower weight based contracts. Then those who wish to fight either way can select from a set of varied weight based contracts.

The BIG weights fight amongst themselves, while making sure they leave behind "heavy garrisons" or they will have to fight in other SMALL weight contracts after to actually defend their planet(s). ;)

Edited by Almond Brown, 27 January 2014 - 09:51 AM.


#109 Trauglodyte

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 10:10 AM

I'm with you in your line of thinking, Almond.

#110 Charons Little Helper

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 10:10 AM

View PostTrauglodyte, on 27 January 2014 - 09:10 AM, said:

Tonnage limites are coming so that is going to get checked off of the list. It will be interesting if PGI has different drop limits for specific maps/goalds once Community Warfare comes around.


Perhaps successful campaign map level moves or previous battles could give one side or the other a tonnage advantage. That'd be pretty sweet.

#111 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 10:14 AM

View PostAlmond Brown, on 27 January 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:


What I hope to see is multiple varied drop weights for each of the goals provided. If they are doing a Contract based system, perhaps some Contracts could have a BID, clan style, for whatever weight the Contract buyer wants.

Example: Contract #2140-087 states a need to capture Sector 8 on Planet Dickinson. We take the Contract and as holders, we set the weight limit, based on what Intel we can gather about Dickinson. The Planet holders have no choice but to fight at the selected weight as per the Contract, as they will also, as some point, get to choose weight limits on their contracts.

That way if the "grognards" always want high tonnage based contract drops, they set high tonnage contracts, while others can set lower weight based contracts. Then those who wish to fight either way can select from a set of varied weight based contracts.

The BIG weights fight amongst themselves, while making sure they leave behind "heavy garrisons" or they will have to fight in other SMALL weight contracts after to actually defend their planet(s). ;)

Why? Why would I as the planetary defender have you honor your limitations? I am not of the Clans!!! You are coming to my house, intent on taking it or something in it from me. I will crush you with what ever I have at my disposal and even improvise if necessary to stop you from taking what is mine! So if you come with a striker company and I have a company of Atlases at my disposal guess whats going to be waiting or you!?

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 27 January 2014 - 10:15 AM.


#112 C E Dwyer

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 10:32 AM

Mediums are so that we can reach 'The other side'

There are some truly acid comments in this thread, so I thought I'd add a silly one

#113 meteorol

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 10:50 AM

View PostYueFei, on 27 January 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:


This isn't theoretical. I've seen very skilled pilots do the twist when engaging at long range (there's enough time to twist because of projectile travel time), and cover themselves up with their arms and side torsos if they get caught while crossing from cover to cover out in the open.



While this is true, it only helps if you engage enemies at really long ranges. Once you are in a range that makes it impossible to "outtwist" a flying ppcs, torsotwisting will help jack diddly squat against good pilots.
If you can shoot them, they can shoot you. If they can't shoot you, they will move into a position in which you can't shoot them.
A good pilot will make sure he can hit a shot if he exposes himself in a 1on1 situation. If you allow someone to chew your armor down at 800m distance while shooting ppc after ppc into his arms, you are not a good pilot in first place. There is more than enough cover on almost every map. If you realize you are in disadvantage on huge ranges, don't pick up the fight.

Don't get me wrong, as i said torso torso twisting is a viable tactic. But it is not the "holy grail" some guys claim it to be.

Edited by meteorol, 27 January 2014 - 10:51 AM.


#114 C E Dwyer

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 10:59 AM

View PostTrauglodyte, on 27 January 2014 - 08:43 AM, said:


Congratulations! You found the Streak button and spammed it to the extreme. You, and people like you, are truely the elite of the skilled players in this game. I applaud you for showing the rest of us the errors of our way and will dedicate the rest of my life to following in your foot steps. I too wish that I can, some day, press the easy button as well as you.

/golf clap

Sarcasm to the poster above aside, people need to realize what Mediums are and what they aren't. Aside from the Cicada, which was built as a heavier scout and a scout predator (it doesn't live up to either in this game, sadly), Mediums were designed as Heavy and Assault supplementary mechs. Your job is to cruise around with the heavier mechs and add fire power to theirs. If you weren't designed to do that, you were either extremely niche designed (ie Hunchback for Urban combat), you were religated to picket defense of other mechs (ie Centurion), or you were sitting in the back as fire support (ie Trebuchet). Medium mechs were the most common because they were the most needed and cheapest to build. They were, for all intents and purposes, the Destroyers and Light Cruisers in the WWII Pacific fleets. They had decent fire power and speed but not enough of either of those or armor to take on Heavy Cruisers, Battle Cruisers, or Battleships. They stayed on the outside and added anti-aircraft firepower to combat the enemy Aircraft Carriers, hunted down Submarines, and added torpedo and ballistic fire support to the bigger, slower, and much less numbered heavier ships. Once you get that in your mind, you'll end up doing better in yoru Medium mech. But, you will never be as deadly or feared as the bigger mechs because you're easier to kill and lack the scary punch that the bigger mechs. So, play like the after thought that you are and take advantage of it. But, don't come here with really bad screen shots of "uber damage" and pretend like you're doing something special because you're not.


As opposed to assault and heavy pilots that can only spam lrms from the second row, are they the truly elite and feared people as well ?


Comparing 20th century naval vessels to mech is flawed, as until the creation of the torpedo the thinking behind all navies was biggest is best, only with the invention of a practical weapon that could sink the major vessels from a small cheap platform did this change.

The torpedo boat, led to the torpedo boat destroyer, to sink the torpedo boats, later shortend to destroyer and by being bigger and more seaworthy than the torpedo boat, and able to carry bigger engines and go faster,made them obsolete, they later after the submarine was seen as a real threat found another job derated renamed and given an anti submarine roll.

The cruiser was seen as a vessel that was a long range patrol ship and for flying whatever empire flag in far flung places, cheaper than a dreadnaught not as a weapons platform capable of winning battles on its own, which is the only reason they were built in numbers as battle ships had become to expensive to use in this way since the creation of HMS Dreadnaught. Crusoier were not seen as anti aircraft platform and were not built in that way until the slow thinkers were shocked to find that aircraft were a real thread to ships of the line just as submarines in years before.

After world war one very few cruisers ever launched torpedo's in action against captial ships, attempts were made in the battle of the river plate, and the japanese long lance torpedo devastated the allies in cruiser actions around the soloman isle's but most were launched from destroyers.

By default, as cruisers had little to do once the aircarft carrier became the desiding factor in naval battles did they get used as anti aircraft platforms and to protect fleets from torpedo carrying surface ships, as they had become obsolete as a front line fighting platform.

After the war it was clear that the battleship was past its sell by date and cruisers were developed specifically to protect the carriers from air attack .

next you'll be telling us what a brilliant Admiral Halsey was.


Mediums have no point in this game because they have nothing to do, its not the fault of the mech its just the way PGI made the way thing work, and in mechwarrior/battletech there isn't a weapon like the torpedo.

only cost is a reason to build mediums and run mediums and there isn't that in MWO and the only way to make them work is to reduce big mech engine sizes and that mean limiting mech customisation which isn't popular nd why the games a cow to balance

Edited by Cathy, 27 January 2014 - 11:31 AM.


#115 Jman5

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 11:01 AM

Mediums are good for their weight. Unfortunately weight matching is so poor that this isn't really much of an advantage. They also play good light killers, but unfortunately most lights are playing long range harassers now and stick near the group.

#116 Sug

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 01:53 PM

All this medium talk made me try a shawk again. Man those things handle like ***.

#117 Murzao

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 01:55 PM

@meteorol Umm no that assumes I'd go toe to toe with an assault in their optimal range in the wide open. If you are sporting PPCs like the metanoobs I'm gonna be wrecking you from 700+ms or 70m....and since I'm faster than you... there ain't nothing you can do about it. Mediums with their fast speed/twist will be the first to get out of cover, twist into firing position, and darting back behind cover. Unless I pop out exactly where you are already looking....then you might get a hit on me, that'd be my fault. That is the power of medium mechs. To always be in a position to shoot first.

PS I have a build that does more DPS than a 3UAC5 phract in a medium going 90+ with close to full armor. Am I sharing it? Not a chance (plus it's HSR dependant so occasionally spotty, also very heat spikey...definitely takes practice aka not a beginner loadout) and have mowed down Atlai in 12 mans with it along with the usual metanoobs.

And YueFei, RiverCity is my favorite map lots of building cover to shoot n scoot. I especially love the tall lower city buildings by the node they make for many a 1v1 which I can kill people in peace before they get backup:) I love small maps.

#118 Khobai

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 02:07 PM

Quote

Just look at that, pathetic damage. Only 866 for this match.


That only serves as proof that mediums arnt as gimped as people claim. That doesnt serve as proof that mediums are better than other weight classes though.

Mediums are a lot like LB10Xs... theyre clearly worse than other weapons... but not nearly as bad as everyone says they are.

All mediums need is about a 10% passive speed buff. Your average medium should be going around 110kph. 90kph-100kph is just way too slow, because its barely faster than most heavies.

It would also be nice if XL engines were a little more durable. XLs are way too easy to knock out in MWO because you can pinpoint side torsos. Pinpoint damage should be reduced to help mediums amongst other reasons.

Edited by Khobai, 27 January 2014 - 02:15 PM.


#119 Deathlike

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 02:09 PM

View PostSug, on 27 January 2014 - 01:53 PM, said:

All this medium talk made me try a shawk again. Man those things handle like ***.


It's not that bad. I would almost universally say that the SH is the best starting medium mech (although, the 5M carrying the XL version is pricey)... but, I'm too biased for the SH to give a proper recommendation.

#120 Trauglodyte

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 02:14 PM

View PostMurzao, on 27 January 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

PS I have a build that does more DPS than a 3UAC5 phract in a medium going 90+ with close to full armor. Am I sharing it? Not a chance (plus it's HSR dependant so occasionally spotty, also very heat spikey...definitely takes practice aka not a beginner loadout) and have mowed down Atlai in 12 mans with it along with the usual metanoobs.


Great! You're running a SplatHawk, a SplatGriffin, or a Splataro. It isn't rocket science, ya know.





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