164 replies to this topic

[lsp]

Doing stuff worse than heavys and assaults, they will be useful when tonnage limits come into play. Shawks are pretty good though.

Edited by lsp, 26 January 2014 - 12:34 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

I would argue that mediums if built right, played right (as a flanking or harassing force) and not played solo can be very deadly.

No ones debating that a medium can be deadly.

But a heavy if built right, and played right, is outright deadlier.

[Deathlike]

Mediums: Fun for people that want to do something different, and also "fun" to take down with a lot less effort than other classes of mechs.

There is no point, despite my enjoyment in MOST mediums, they are built like an inferior heavy or Awesome... ready to be crushed at a moment's notice due to poor scaling.

[SpartanFiredog317]

Khobai, on 26 January 2014 - 01:08 AM, said:

No ones debating that a medium can be deadly. But a heavy if built right, and played right, is outright deadlier.

...If a Heavy is Deadlier than a medium it is slower by leaps and bounds.... Or not nearly as survivable.... sure you can have that dual ac20 jag and other glorius AC jag builds... but the thing either loses half its firepower or blows up if somebody looks at your side torso sideways, Phracts and Orions are slow enough and arms easy enough to hit, Catapults either ears or core from the side. Quickdraws and dragons can be quick but only with XL engines and are fairly easy to hit even at speed. .... Matter of Fact, I'd take a well piloted 2x A-LRM15 trenchbucket over a equally skilled pilot in lot of heavies because he can keep them in LRM pounding range and avoid a lot of hits with JJ usage. A ECM/PPC sniper Cicada can eat the slower heavies alive with pop, shoot n' scoot. Heck, even my trusty ERPPC/4MG Cicada can wreck 1v1 and fairs even better if both teams sluggers are duking it out... PPC cover, PPC, cover PPC, cover, PPC, cover.... internals showing... move in for kill or disable.

[lsp]

SpartanFiredog317, on 26 January 2014 - 01:32 AM, said:

...If a Heavy is Deadlier than a medium it is slower by leaps and bounds.... Or not nearly as survivable.... sure you can have that dual ac20 jag and other glorius AC jag builds... but the thing either loses half its firepower or blows up if somebody looks at your side torso sideways, Phracts and Orions are slow enough and arms easy enough to hit, Catapults either ears or core from the side. Quickdraws and dragons can be quick but only with XL engines and are fairly easy to hit even at speed. .... Matter of Fact, I'd take a well piloted 2x A-LRM15 trenchbucket over a equally skilled pilot in lot of heavies because he can keep them in LRM pounding range and avoid a lot of hits with JJ usage. A ECM/PPC sniper Cicada can eat the slower heavies alive with pop, shoot n' scoot. Heck, even my trusty ERPPC/4MG Cicada can wreck 1v1 and fairs even better if both teams sluggers are duking it out... PPC cover, PPC, cover PPC, cover, PPC, cover.... internals showing... move in for kill or disable.

My Victor ges 80kph, has full armor, 2 JJ's and packs two ppcs, ac20. Also the trenchbucket is a terrible mech. The only medium you might see in a 12 man is a hawk. And you know what they will have? A ac20 and a ppc.

Another point, phracts can go over 80 kph.. if built that way, and I can't say I've ever been cored out in a one on one by a medium in my Jager with triple ultras.(and if I had been, it was probably a hawk) Also, I wouldn't knock the Jager, I do extremely well in mine(most of the time), and so do others. I took on a stalker in my jager with triple ultras head on, and I won.(we where both fresh, it was at the begining of the game) And made one other kill afterward and survived the match with 700 damage done.(and I was pugging)http://i1286.photobu...zps5829345d.jpg
Jagers are very deadly, specially if ignored, and piloted by a decent pilot.

The only time mediums will come into their own is when tonnage limits happen.

Edited by lsp, 26 January 2014 - 02:08 AM.

[Asmudius Heng]

For those saying weight matching will help - I worry we will just see a shift to ECM spiders, Ravens and Cicada's matched with the highest end assaults and heavies.

(asuming 65 tons average per player) So a 4 man lance migth choose 2 jumping highlanders and 2 ECM cicadas because they still know those mechs are more viable than taking something with more low end heavier or mediums.

Tonnage matching WILL help, but mediums need to shine on their own terms as well.

[Stygian Steel]

before the hit box nerf a cylon lance (4 centurions) would cause assaults/lights and heavies to cower in fear and run away looking for their other lance mates,all those ssrms uac/5's and mediums lasers running at you at 90 kph was something you didn;t ant to see if they had a red triangle over their head =)

[A banana in the tailpipe]

The point of medium mechs in MWO:

[SpartanFiredog317]

lsp, on 26 January 2014 - 01:39 AM, said:

My Victor ges 80kph, has full armor, 2 JJ's and packs two ppcs, ac20. Also the trenchbucket is a terrible mech. The only medium you might see in a 12 man is a hawk. And you know what they will have? A ac20 and a ppc. Another point, phracts can go over 80 kph.. if built that way, and I can't say I've ever been cored out in a one on one by a medium in my Jager with triple ultras.(and if I had been, it was probably a hawk) Also, I wouldn't knock the Jager, I do extremely well in mine(most of the time), and so do others. I took on a stalker in my jager with triple ultras head on, and I won.(we where both fresh, it was at the begining of the game) And made one other kill afterward and survived the match with 700 damage done.(and I was pugging)http://i1286.photobu...zps5829345d.jpg Jagers are very deadly, specially if ignored, and piloted by a decent pilot. The only time mediums will come into their own is when tonnage limits happen.

A half decent pilot would pick your victor apart with a well built trenchbucket... its simply a matter of Maneuvering to your flank and keeping the tag on you while juking your ungainly AC20/PPC shots. Especially true if your engaged already. And that's what mediums excel at, ambush tactics. I would say the stalker is a terrible mech because of the engine cap. and that's why you won against it... superior mobility.... and that is why a trenchie is more than able of winning against your victor build...

The 12 man AC/UAC+PPC meta is a result of ghost heat and SRM's not doing 2.5 dmg per missile. Really I don't care what the numbbrained 'competitive' player does anyway... he can have his epeen, and I will always have more fun than him.

Also on your victor build... I take any fast moving medium and get in your face you are so done... 3-5 well placed shots remove your only close range weapon and then I can just sit and laugh as I shoot off your ligaments one by one. OR concentrate on a torso, since you are probably running XL... OR even better(for me) if you keep your ammo in your legs and shave off a ton or two of your armor for that pretty little engine....

Edited by SpartanFiredog317, 26 January 2014 - 02:49 AM.

[Lightfoot]

In previous MechWarrior games the class of mech determined the mech's max turn rate, which ment a medium could run circles around an assault. This is true to a lesser extent in MWO, but engine speed can trump turn rate, make your mediums fast and you should out-turn those heavies in your medium.

Speed is the advantage lighter mechs get over heavier ones, but you need to use it. Tactically by covering ground or with greater agility in a duel. If you try to carry too much loadout on a medium, you give up that advantage.

[Artgathan]

SpartanFiredog317, on 26 January 2014 - 02:37 AM, said:

A half decent pilot would pick your victor apart with a well built trenchbucket... its simply a matter of Maneuvering to your flank and keeping the tag on you while juking your ungainly AC20/PPC shots. Especially true if your engaged already. And that's what mediums excel at, ambush tactics. I would say the stalker is a terrible mech because of the engine cap. and that's why you won against it... superior mobility.... and that is why a trenchie is more than able of winning against your victor build...

The 12 man AC/UAC+PPC meta is a result of ghost heat and SRM's not doing 2.5 dmg per missile. Really I don't care what the numbbrained 'competitive' player does anyway... he can have his epeen, and I will always have more fun than him.

Also on your victor build... I take any fast moving medium and get in your face you are so done... 3-5 well placed shots remove your only close range weapon and then I can just sit and laugh as I shoot off your ligaments one by one. OR concentrate on a torso, since you are probably running XL... OR even better(for me) if you keep your ammo in your legs and shave off a ton or two of your armor for that pretty little engine....

Just... no.

darkchylde, on 25 January 2014 - 11:57 PM, said:

Engine Cap Increase wouldn't hurt either

An engine cap increase wouldn't actually hurt, but it doesn't help either. It doesn't actually help Mediums, since their ability to carry larger engines is reduced. Consider that on a 50 ton mech, a STD300 takes up 50% of their weight. Add armor, and they've got ~9.5 - 10 tons to player with (12 if you install Endo Steel). Effectively, they'll have the weapon payload of a light mech.

Sure you could go XL, but do you really want an XL in a Hunchback, Trebuchet or Centurion?

[Prezimonto]

Medium's are in a better place with all the 55tonners and the AC20 blackjack builds. That doesn't change that the Treb, Hunchie, Cent, half the blackjacks, and Cicadas minus the ECM are in a terrible place. They can be fun to pilot, but they're essentially superfluous at the moment with other mechs doing everything they can do, better, with similar mobility.

[Mudhutwarrior]

I built a treb for fun and enjoyed playing it in its intended role to harrass and support assaults. Problem is in the current meta if you don't bring the highest DPS you don't earn. Its sad because i have more fun experimenting with different build and roles than just trashing the next guy as fast as I can. Being a pug compounds the issue.
If you don't move very fast or have over 400 armor dont bother here. Maybe PGI is understanding this as about the only mediums you see now are shadowhawks and cicadias and yen lo. Few of them too now.

[Noesis]

Speed nerf, size nerf, heat dissipation nerf. Medium pinatas that are in the game currently to help PGI sell larger Mechs.

Having said that they are not useless, but certainly have limited uses against the current Heavy meta. So roll on tonnage restrictions and hope they have more of a use and the game even begins to look slightly like canon.

[Trauglodyte]

For those asking for an engine cap increase, you've got to understand that PGI humped the bunk when they added in that absolutely god awful engine cap formula. It is a linear scale based on mech weight and mech weight class. That means that all of the Lights can go 150 kph even though most of them were never intended to go that fast. Mediums are hamstrung by the same formula as are heavies and assaults. That means that you've got situations where some mechs should be going faster but can't because the powers that be can't seem to pull their heads out of their collective butts and fix it. "We're too far along now to go back!" Some mechs should be slow, some should be fast, some should be incredibly fast. The weight/weight class shouldn't matter because FASA designed mechs with intent and not this bastardized Frankenstein {Scrap} we have now.

[Khobai]

Quote

..If a Heavy is Deadlier than a medium it is slower by leaps and bounds

ideally that would be the case. in reality its not. a fully weaponized and armored jager can still go 80kph.

[PanzerMagier]

Mediums are there so that lights and assaults have something to chew on that's easier than a heavy.
The most useless mech in the game. Too slow to scout, too big to dodge, too light to pack a punch.

[Skyfaller]

Some people are missing the point. If heavy and assault mechs can go up to 80kph (most at 70's) and load very heavy weaponry and armor then a medium mech going at 110 kph but loading much weaker weapons and having much weaker armor and being ALMOST as big as a heavy mech (aka, as easy to hit!) then what is the point of mediums?

It does not matter if someone gets a Blackjack with an AC20 and ravages the enemy team with it... the pilot would do much better if he had been using a heavy mech that was slightly slower yet twice as better armed and armored.

The difference in speed is minimal. A 20 to 40kph speed difference is irrelevant when your mech (medium in this case) is as easy to hit as a heavy mech.

The heavier mechs need to have their speeds lowered so that the mediums have a niche advantage.

[Artgathan]

Skyfaller, on 26 January 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

Some people are missing the point. If heavy and assault mechs can go up to 80kph (most at 70's) and load very heavy weaponry and armor then a medium mech going at 110 kph but loading much weaker weapons and having much weaker armor and being ALMOST as big as a heavy mech (aka, as easy to hit!) then what is the point of mediums?

It does not matter if someone gets a Blackjack with an AC20 and ravages the enemy team with it... the pilot would do much better if he had been using a heavy mech that was slightly slower yet twice as better armed and armored.

The difference in speed is minimal. A 20 to 40kph speed difference is irrelevant when your mech (medium in this case) is as easy to hit as a heavy mech.

The heavier mechs need to have their speeds lowered so that the mediums have a niche advantage.

Almost as big as a heavy mech? The Griffin is the same height as a Victor! The only difference between the two is thinner appendages and a very slightly thinner torso on the Griffin (not enough to make anyone miss a shot...).

[Skyfaller]

Artgathan, on 26 January 2014 - 09:29 AM, said:

Almost as big as a heavy mech? The Griffin is the same height as a Victor! The only difference between the two is thinner appendages and a very slightly thinner torso on the Griffin (not enough to make anyone miss a shot...).

There you go.