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What Is The Point Of Mediums?


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#21 Snowcrow

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 05:34 AM

Until weight limits are in the game, there's no real reason to use mediums.

#22 DonGardenio

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 05:55 AM

Eh. Blackjacks are one of the few things that can bring an AC20 running along at 90kph with jumpjets. Rather good at clocking assault arseholes if used properly.

Shadowhawks are an excellent blend of mobility and firepower and can often go toe to toe with most heavies. Jumpy twisty ********. Can almost be configured into anything. Pseudo LRM Boat? SRM zombie? 2D2's got your back with its 30 tubes and 4 missile hardpoints. Otherwise they pack some mean ballistics up high. Or you can fling some PPCs on there and go with the meta. Though their profile's pretty much as big as a ******* Victor and I think that's something that could use some rectifying.

Mediums tend to be agile enough to give Assaults problems, barring the Victor. And agile enough to make some lights think twice. Not exactly easy to stay on an open up a Medium's back with a Jenner(unless they are really bloody oblivious). Then they turn around and unleash a nasty kinder's surprise of SSRMBODYGUARDBUILD.

#23 xTrident

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 05:57 AM

View PostAppogee, on 25 January 2014 - 01:18 AM, said:

The point of Mediums is for us skilled pilots to show that we don't need to rely on Highlander 733cs, Atlas D-DCs or Jenner Fs to be great MechWarriors :P


It's funny that's said because I don't believe once since my short time playing (While short ~125 drops, it also constitutes me being new and not knowing what I was doing) I've simply been beaten by a medium. If a medium kills me it was because they had help. On top of that, most of the time it's a vulture kill.

That being said, I can certainly see there place on the battlefield. A good medium lance running around doing their thing is actually quite impressive. - Victor pilot

Edited by xTrident, 25 January 2014 - 05:59 AM.


#24 Appogee

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 06:05 AM

View PostxTrident, on 25 January 2014 - 05:57 AM, said:

It's funny that's said because I don't believe once since my short time playing (While short ~125 drops, it also constitutes me being new and not knowing what I was doing) I've simply been beaten by a medium.

Guess you haven't met me on the battlefield then :P

#25 Charons Little Helper

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 06:10 AM

If as a medium - any heavies (other than dragon/quickdraw - which are just barely heavies) are faster than you - you're doing something wrong.

I run several different mediums - and my slowest is my AC20 hunchie - just over 92kph.

Mediums are basically the hussars of MWO. They might not be as fast as lights - but they can bring more firepower to bear (and most builds thrash lights due to agility) - so the key is to show up as reinforcements whenever you see a fight break out.

#26 wanderer

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 07:09 AM

Mediums used to have a purpose- as the cost-efficient way to bring weapons to the field.

A Hunchback can pack enough LRMs to matter. Or that AC/20. Or a few PPC's. Without weight limits or repair/rearm costs, the economic benefit of this is lost, and we're Steinerwarrior Online now.

#27 Artgathan

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 08:25 AM

To all the people suggesting that Mediums can outmaneuver Assault mechs: you are wrong. Read the link in the second post for the math, but essentially no medium can run fast enough to be the turning speed of any assault mech.

#28 Charons Little Helper

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 08:35 AM

View PostArtgathan, on 25 January 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

To all the people suggesting that Mediums can outmaneuver Assault mechs: you are wrong. Read the link in the second post for the math, but essentially no medium can run fast enough to be the turning speed of any assault mech.


1. Your post doesn't actually prove that mediums can't outmanuver assaults - it doesn't really go into turning speed much at all.

2. Yep - all of those assaults I've outmanuvered to some degree must just all suck.

3. Well - while you can't run faster than their torso twist (you shouldn't be able to) - you can go faster than their turn speed.

4. Your whole linked post ignores that many weapon systems get diminishing returns on bigger weapons - and that all mechs start with the same heat amounts. This makes the first 20ish tons of weaponry far more valuable than the 2nd 20ish tons of weaponry.

5. Also - several of your lights' engines scew too low on weight because you forgot about the required external heatsinks. From a practical perspective - a locust's engine weighs 9 tons. (45% of weight) Same is true to a lesser degree for the commando. Also - you assume lights bigger than a locust can get away with a proportionally lower speed - simply untrue. These two things scewed your numbers to have the lights' engines be a far smaller % of their weight than they should be.

Edited by Charons Little Helper, 25 January 2014 - 09:02 AM.


#29 kapusta11

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 08:37 AM

View PostArtgathan, on 25 January 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

To all the people suggesting that Mediums can outmaneuver Assault mechs: you are wrong. Read the link in the second post for the math, but essentially no medium can run fast enough to be the turning speed of any assault mech.


Your theory has little to do with practice.

#30 Varent

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 09:09 AM

Current Meta that are strong -

Assaults -

Atlas - Tanky Bruiser
Highlander - Jump Sniper
Stalker - Alpha Boat Tank
Victor - Jump Sniper

Heavies -

Catphract - Fire Support/JumpSniper/Bruiser/Flanker
Jagermech - Fire Support/Flanker
Catapult - Fire Support/Bruiser/Flanker
(maybe) Orion - Quasi Tank/Brawler

Mediums -

Centurion - Tanky Brawler
Shadowhawk - Tanky Brawler/Fire Support/Light Killer/Flanker
Kintaro - Dedicated Light Killer
(maybe)Griffin - Tanky Brawler/Light Killer/Flanker

Lights -

Jenner - Does everything well, no ecm
Raven - Mostly support, has ecm
Spider - Good in either an ecm roll and supportive or as an aggressive flanker.



Generally speaking...

Lights>Assaults
Mediums>Lights
Heavies>Mediums
Assaults>heavies


Assaults are usually too slow to fend off a light and die to them were as a heavy has a fighting change and a medium is mobile enough they can kill them pretty easily. especially when you consider how many medium mechs rock a decent amount of missle slots. Many of the meta builds run lots of streaks and make light mech pilots cry.

To build off this further this is sort of the rock paper scissors of this game. That said its something people dont realize or understand because of a few factors.

1) alot of people are just playing heavies and assaults in pug matches because of the lack of true drop weight restrictions. This means the medium mech currently doesnt have its place as established since there arent many light mechs to kill and they are left brawling with heavies or trying to out maneuver assaults. While its possible to outmaneuver an assault its hard and generally you will lose when going up against the heavy. There is no way to repair this until drop weights come into play.

2) Most players also dont understand the roll of there mech. They try to fight weight classes higher then themselves and lose and then get angry. I think the best way I can explain this is in boxing terms. There is weight divisions and people arent ment to fight outside of them for very good reason. If you are going to fight a heavier mech in a medium then play smart, use your speed and dont fight straight up. Most medium mechs are supposed to be played as a flanking mech. That means get in behind the enemy hit them hard and then run, sew chaos and use your increased speed to get away. When/If light mechs run to fight you or mediums (the only ones that should be able to keep pace) you can then fight them at your liesure with the proper weight.

3) Most medium mechs rely on srm to be effective. With the current issues with hit reg on srm it can be iffy for players to feel they are performing up to a certain standard when srm dont reg the way they should. Hopefully when this is fixed it will make the players feel more secure in there roll.

#31 Amsro

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 09:12 AM

Lots of reasons to take medium mechs;

- Striker
- Harraser
- Spotter
- Capper
- Scouter
- Flanker
- Assault/Heavy Support
- Light Support/Light Hunter
- Ghost Brawler
- LRM Boat Destroyer
- Assault Mech Killer

There are more I'm sure! For my play style I need jump jets and speed, 115kph +. I can get away with 90 kph with STD engines, but that is a different play style. More like a Heavy at that point.

My 3C is the best Ninja Medium, no JJ but it goes light mech speeds.

If you aren't having fun in mediums then by all means use anything else, but to say they are worthless is rather ignorant. :P

Edited by Amsro, 25 January 2014 - 09:14 AM.


#32 Trauglodyte

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 09:33 AM

Quote

Eh. Blackjacks are one of the few things that can bring an AC20 running along at 90kph with jumpjets. Rather good at clocking assault arseholes if used properly.


Relying on an AC20 to make a Medium mech serviceable makes you bad. The end.

#33 Varent

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 09:37 AM

View PostTrauglodyte, on 25 January 2014 - 09:33 AM, said:


Relying on an AC20 to make a Medium mech serviceable makes you bad. The end.


just as a further playoff. Do you know how easy that mech is to kill and/or make useless?

There is a reason the ac40 jager isnt viable in higher elo and also why that mech isnt viable either.

#34 St4LkeRxF

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 09:37 AM

Team up with some good assault pilots, stay close to them and cover their rear, focus fire on same target and finish off targets so that assaults can move on.

Lights are big trouble for assaults, so you as medium can make short work of them and assaults will keep you safe from assaults and heavies, don't try to go 1on1 with assaults as they will hurt you and even if you can solo assault mech good chance is you will be in bad shape.

I don't pilot mediums (to be honest i didn't even try them), but i do pilot assaults and i am happy when i have few of them close and they are most of time better support than other mechs, so if you think that mediums are not worth you just didn't play with a good team.

#35 Charons Little Helper

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 09:38 AM

View PostTrauglodyte, on 25 January 2014 - 09:33 AM, said:


Relying on an AC20 to make a Medium mech serviceable makes you bad. The end.


Yeah! Stop relying on weapons to do damage with! Or speed/jjs to make you manuverable!

#36 Iacov

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 09:41 AM

:P

mediums are awesome!
i personally prefer my catapult, but i never mind piloting a cicada, hunchback or centurion
mediums are workhorses and offer a lot of mobility for a reasonable amount of armor
i personally prefer the centurion, which trades raw firepower for survivability...he's quite a good tank, can sustain a lot of punishment and is a splendid zombie

don't underestimate the mediums! xD

#37 Artgathan

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 09:59 AM

View PostCharons Little Helper, on 25 January 2014 - 08:35 AM, said:


1. Your post doesn't actually prove that mediums can't outmanuver assaults - it doesn't really go into turning speed much at all.

2. Yep - all of those assaults I've outmanuvered to some degree must just all suck.

3. Well - while you can't run faster than their torso twist (you shouldn't be able to) - you can go faster than their turn speed.

4. Your whole linked post ignores that many weapon systems get diminishing returns on bigger weapons - and that all mechs start with the same heat amounts. This makes the first 20ish tons of weaponry far more valuable than the 2nd 20ish tons of weaponry.

5. Also - several of your lights' engines scew too low on weight because you forgot about the required external heatsinks. From a practical perspective - a locust's engine weighs 9 tons. (45% of weight) Same is true to a lesser degree for the commando. Also - you assume lights bigger than a locust can get away with a proportionally lower speed - simply untrue. These two things scewed your numbers to have the lights' engines be a far smaller % of their weight than they should be.

  • The bottom section of the post goes into turn speeds. The first is admittedly about engine ratings and speed, but then goes into a discussion of how those interact with turning speeds and mobility. Read the whole thing next time.
  • Personal Anecdotes =/= Evidence
  • You can only go faster than the turn speed of an Atlas at ranges less than 50 metres. If you include twist speed, you can never out-run them.
  • All mechs do not start with the same heat amounts. A Locust with 10 DHS only has a heat capacity of 48.2, compared to the 50 heat capacity of an Atlas with 10 DHS. This, again, is tied to flaws with the engine system. Diminishing returns on weapons is irrelevant to the discussion of how engines affect weight balance.
  • Again, if you'd take the time to read the whole thing you'd know that eventually I accounted for this. It still tips the scales in favor of Assaults.

View Postkapusta11, on 25 January 2014 - 08:37 AM, said:

Your theory has little to do with practice.


It has everything to do with practice. Suggesting that perhaps there's a different behavior in the field (for instance, suggesting that an Atlas turns slower than the indicated values, or that medium mechs run faster) is erroneous. There's several reasons that medium mechs are fielded in comparatively few numbers compared to the other weight classes. Mobility is one of them.

#38 Charons Little Helper

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 10:05 AM

View PostArtgathan, on 25 January 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

You can only go faster than the turn speed of an Atlas at ranges less than 50 metres. If you include twist speed, you can never out-run them.


That's probably why I always outmanuver assualts at ranges less than 50 meters. Considering my love of small lasers & srms - that's my bread & butter distance - plus it makes any PPCs they might have worthless.

You can't list a rule - and then admit to exceptions while maintaining the validity of your rule.

And while you discussed turn speed generally - you don't get into specific proofs.

Oh - and stalkers are far easier to outmanuver than atlases.

Edited by Charons Little Helper, 25 January 2014 - 10:07 AM.


#39 Charons Little Helper

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 10:08 AM

View PostArtgathan, on 25 January 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

Personal Anecdotes =/= Evidence


While a few examples can't be used to prove a rule - they can be used to disprove a rule.

#40 Artgathan

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 10:34 AM

View PostCharons Little Helper, on 25 January 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:


That's probably why I always outmanuver assualts at ranges less than 50 meters. Considering my love of small lasers & srms - that's my bread & butter distance - plus it makes any PPCs they might have worthless.

You can't list a rule - and then admit to exceptions while maintaining the validity of your rule.

And while you discussed turn speed generally - you don't get into specific proofs.

Oh - and stalkers are far easier to outmanuver than atlases.


If you take the time to read the thread in its entirety (where most of the discussion takes place) you'll notice a few things. All mechs in MW:O run a circle with a 25m radius when running at top speed. To outmanuver an Atlas at 25m, you need to run you need to run ~126kph. Which medium (besides the Cicada) runs at speeds higher than 126kph? In order to "out-turn" the Atlas you need to have a top speed higher than 126 kph in order to run a tight enough circle to evade the Atlas at less than 25m.

Also, Stalkers have the same turning speeds as an Atlas (relative to their engine size). They only suffer due to limited torso twist range.





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