511 replies to this topic

[Mr 144]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 January 2014 - 06:48 AM, said:

Ah. now I see your angle! Well the problem is that the DEVs have already said that PUGs/Lone Wolves will fill the gaps in matches once CW is active, Which is why I do play as a PUG, cause I won't always have the Law at my back.

We really should run together one of these days although I'm afraid of the loss of challenge

[Joseph Mallan]

PUG or Solo the chance of losing is still around 48% Mr144!

[Iskareot]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 January 2014 - 08:36 AM, said:

PUG or Solo the chance of losing is still around 48% Mr144!

So in short there is nothing to lose doing this right? I mean if given a choice to drop either way in a lobby system or something this will not affect you or anyone then right?

Or do you really think there is a population issue for this not to work?

[Mr 144]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 January 2014 - 08:36 AM, said:

PUG or Solo the chance of losing is still around 48% Mr144!

bah, challenge =/= W/L as you well know

Some of my "best" matches were losses! Last I stat tracked, my Pugging was +5% W/L and +15% KDR...C-Bill earnings are no comparison...pugging by far has the personal "average" glory.

[Joseph Mallan]

Iskareot, on 27 January 2014 - 08:47 AM, said:

So in short there is nothing to lose doing this right? I mean if given a choice to drop either way in a lobby system or something this will not affect you or anyone then right?

Or do you really think there is a population issue for this not to work?

I think I really don't care. A Lobby would allow the most players to get what they want (IF it works as intended)! And no mater the path taken, someone WILL be affected.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mr 144, on 27 January 2014 - 08:49 AM, said:

bah, challenge =/= W/L as you well know

Some of my "best" matches were losses! Last I stat tracked, my Pugging was +5% W/L and +15% KDR...C-Bill earnings are no comparison...pugging by far has the personal "average" glory.

I know. Some of my best PUG games, the team as a whole lost horribly. My favorite I landed every kill the team had(4) with only 2 assists! As a Lawman, my favorite games were the ones where I do 400+ and have 6+ assists!

[Sandpit]

Let me say one thing so it is very clear. I have, and will continue to, support a separate queue for new players during their cadet period. These players should not be dropping with vets and optimized builds. They should also allow vets who apply and are approved drop in those queues with champion mechs only to offer advice, tips, information, etc. to the new players so that when they drop after their cadet period they have a better understanding of the game.

That, in my opinion, is the largest culprit behind stomps. Not pugs, not premades, not weapons, etc.

You could even give the community volunteers a special badge and such for being a "drill instructor". The community would actually fill in a lot of the holes that PGI has created when it comes to helping new players get acclimated to the steep learning curve here.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Sandpit, on 27 January 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

Let me say one thing so it is very clear. I have, and will continue to, support a separate queue for new players during their cadet period. These players should not be dropping with vets and optimized builds. They should also allow vets who apply and are approved drop in those queues with champion mechs only to offer advice, tips, information, etc. to the new players so that when they drop after their cadet period they have a better understanding of the game.

That, in my opinion, is the largest culprit behind stomps. Not pugs, not premades, not weapons, etc.

You could even give the community volunteers a special badge and such for being a "drill instructor". The community would actually fill in a lot of the holes that PGI has created when it comes to helping new players get acclimated to the steep learning curve here.

You already have a special badge and you want more?

Badges, we don't need no stinkin badges.

[Iskareot]

Sandpit, on 27 January 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

Let me say one thing so it is very clear. I have, and will continue to, support a separate queue for new players during their cadet period. These players should not be dropping with vets and optimized builds. They should also allow vets who apply and are approved drop in those queues with champion mechs only to offer advice, tips, information, etc. to the new players so that when they drop after their cadet period they have a better understanding of the game.

That, in my opinion, is the largest culprit behind stomps. Not pugs, not premades, not weapons, etc.

You could even give the community volunteers a special badge and such for being a "drill instructor". The community would actually fill in a lot of the holes that PGI has created when it comes to helping new players get acclimated to the steep learning curve here.

And that is a great start for sure, I mean I had people that joined that did not play the board game.. so for me to go through all of this was a bit much for them. (They just did not grasp it all at once) -- BUT saying it was giant mechs fighting each other -- simply helped.

The drops can be the worst experience ever too if you have a team of stupid. That's just it, imagine being able to control your drop somewhat. I rather get 4 people together and explain we will be going head to head with 3 other 4 man teams then lets go pug and this is how crazy this will be.

Either way, even in testing grounds (which help) I think we should have a choice. I know that when I roll solo that it is more chaos and then SILENT at the same time, so I will end up telling some what to do. The worst part is them not doing anything remotely like the strat given. Some just driving in a circle- some staring at the sky.. some shooting the ground (my favorite) cause the ground blows up and it looks cool.

But then you have the premade 4 man team... that sees that boob shooting the ground and hes done instantly. Now, sure its **** for the premade it is not so fun for the solo guy. AT LEAST with the solo vs solo mentality you can expect chaos and lone wolf motives.

See that's just it... you can predict a premades strat more so than a pugs. I mean sure a premade can drop in and core your own team.. sure but I bet you odds its a pug that has no clue that just opens up on his own team first. (happens all the time lol).

I just have to think that if we had the choice the game would be more in lines of balance and game play.

[Sandpit]

I just dont' see it happening. If it were possible I don't think PGI would have hesitated to make that kind of change. They have consistently made adjustments in the game to cater (just for lack of a better word) to pugs and mitigate the ability of players to group up.

I honestly wish we had a large enough base to do a hardcore and regular style servers. Then those of us that DO want harder settings could get them and those wanting an easier time would get that as well. The fact that PGI has in the past made adjustments for pugs and nerfed groups shows me they would like to but a separate queue just doesn't seem feasible

[RG Notch]

Sandpit, on 27 January 2014 - 01:18 PM, said:

I just dont' see it happening. If it were possible I don't think PGI would have hesitated to make that kind of change. They have consistently made adjustments in the game to cater (just for lack of a better word) to pugs and mitigate the ability of players to group up.

I honestly wish we had a large enough base to do a hardcore and regular style servers. Then those of us that DO want harder settings could get them and those wanting an easier time would get that as well. The fact that PGI has in the past made adjustments for pugs and nerfed groups shows me they would like to but a separate queue just doesn't seem feasible

The obvious conclusion is .... lack of players. But you already knew that.

[DEMAX51]

Why does it always come down to "pre-made vs. pugs"?

Are people not aware that 12-man pre-mades only fight other 12-man pre-mades? Do people not get that in non 12-man matches there are probably pre-made groups and PUGs on both teams?

The matchmaker doesn't just take three 4-man groups and pit them against 12 solo noobs, ya know.

[Sandpit]

RG Notch, on 27 January 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

The obvious conclusion is .... lack of players. But you already knew that.

I know, which is why I get tired of seeing "Splitting queues would work"

Those of us that look at it understand why it won't work and the biggest culprit is that the player base simply isn't large enough to support it. Yet those calling for it dont' seem to care that a lot of players would have their launch times shoot up to 10+ minutes. That seems to be ok with them though as long as they dont' have to face a premade.

[Deathlike]

Sandpit, on 27 January 2014 - 02:05 PM, said:

I know, which is why I get tired of seeing "Splitting queues would work"

Those of us that look at it understand why it won't work and the biggest culprit is that the player base simply isn't large enough to support it. Yet those calling for it dont' seem to care that a lot of players would have their launch times shoot up to 10+ minutes. That seems to be ok with them though as long as they dont' have to face a premade.

Even though I'd normally not care whether we have a solo+group queue (it's not ultimately my decision), but isn't that an issue with player activity and retention? As much as it's easier to whine about every PGI decision, but whether or not I agree with it... it's really up to PGI to make the game friendly... if it means having those queues and hoping it draws back a crowd, so be it.

The thing of it is that if it were done like a year ago, I'd say we'd have a bigger enough playerbase to do it. It's far harder to use hindsight as this discussion has come back to the same arguments used back then. Now, we have no choice due to the problems of the playerbase size. These things come back to haunt you in the most unwanted ways, and better decisions in closed/open beta would have at least mitigated some of this.

It's closer to "it's too late" than "it's not too late to change your mind". That's unfortunate.

One would argue that "Skirmish" should have been implemented and tweaked a year ago. I doubt that's having a significant an impact as it would now...

Edited by Deathlike, 27 January 2014 - 02:20 PM.

[Sandpit]

I still firmly believe that this won't solve the stomps. Stomps aren't caused because people drop in a 4man. Until more get away from that mode of thinking it will continue because they're not solving the underlying problem

[Deathlike]

Sandpit, on 27 January 2014 - 02:22 PM, said:

I still firmly believe that this won't solve the stomps. Stomps aren't caused because people drop in a 4man. Until more get away from that mode of thinking it will continue because they're not solving the underlying problem

It's not really the premade... it's the MM and how it goes about constructing teams. Still, stomps will happen, but to think premades themselves are not some sort of "force multiplier" on a team would be naive. Of course, nothing is a given, and not all premades are equal themselves, so.... I don't know how we can educate better other than producing "more quality matches" than not.

[wanderer]

Splitting queues would also take the people who actually wanted to team up out of the whirling vortex of suck that is PUG hell entirely...while whatever soloers filled in the cracks would actually get a taste of MWO as it should be played, with a real team, or at least three lances that don't have their collective heads lodged in their backsides.

You want stomps, get a PUG mob to stomp on. Even as a lance and if your entire team sucks wind, you'll at least do something entertaining win or lose and make a significant dent. A lot of the 12-6 to 12-11 losses I see are when my side utterly derps up and loses half the force, while the other half is the premade lance+ whoever had the brains to follow them.

If you want to watch giant robots going spastic, PUG it up completely and watch the random insanity of being friendly-fired, scattered like chaff in the wind, and being mildly interesting target practice for whatever premade group comes along.

And no, both sides don't always get premades if one does. If that's in the MM, it's another failure of the system.

[MischiefSC]

Had a game today where on my team was a 5 man sync-drop in 733Cs.

It wasn't really fun for either side, over in about 3 minutes.

That is, however, dramatically the exception.

[Lykaon]

Davers, on 26 January 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

Well PGI seems to disagree with this thread since they are expanding group sizes to 2-12. I guess my question would be "Why does PGI think it is ok for a 12 man premade to drop against 12 PUGs?"

Well we could hope it's because PGI anticipates match making to account for groups being present and dispersing the groups as evenly as possible.


Now for my 2 C-Bills.

Stuff puggies don't know about playing 4 man teams in the "solo" queue.

1) Not every group of 4 similar icons is a premade.

2) Not every premade is talented

3) Not every talented premade cares to try hard every drop.Sometimes they just screw around.

4) Frequently when a premade is on one side it's opposed by a premade on the other side.

5) 4 man premades get stomped too.

6) If there is a 4 man premade on a team there are 8 puggies.If the 4 man premade wins so did 8 puggies.Soundls like a nice deal to me.

7) The actions of puggies have significant impact on premades.Frequently a match is decided more by what team has talented solos than what team drew the better premade.If a 4 man team starts with 8 corpses and not 8 team members they will lose.

What I am hoping is taken away from this are the logical assumptions that can be drawn from playing in a mixed queue.

[Prezimonto]

Sandpit, on 25 January 2014 - 05:40 PM, said:

Wonder why no one else has ever posted about this? This is a very important issue.

Keep blaming premades guys. Keep jumping up and down and sayin they're the reason you lose. It's ok. he reasons splitting the queues would be bad has been discussed in the 20 or so other threads about this. Maybe you should go read them

Down boy. One would think you enjoy feeding them sarcasm.... not the deep existential pain of watching others fail to search the forums for their idea before posting.

What I'd like to see tighter grouping in ELO matching and more granular ELO assignments, including starting new players several hundred ticks lower on the ELO scale. As for splitting queues.... the lobbies + tonnage (or if PGI wasn't lazy BV or market based BV) will go a long way to ameliorating the issues we have.

In game voice communication would also be huge, and is IMO one of the most glaring things missing from this game (you know... other than a reason to play other than pure killing each other).