511 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Xtrekker, on 30 January 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

My point is that even a very good pugger (I presume I am) can't typically carry a team against even a small group working together on comms. Look how consistent their damage is...all working as one, all putting damage on a target, screening their damaged wings from further damage. Pugs can't fight against that. When they do, it's rare. I promise their win ratio is high, built on the backs of PUGs. That means people like (99.99% PUG) me are pushed lower into the Elo pool, and even on level ground (PUGs vs PUGs), new players are screwed.

Pull premades out of the mix, the PUG Elo pool settles and premades are given a fair challenge in their own arena.

This is a surprise to you? You believe you should be able to beat 4 coordinating players who are working as a team against you in a team oriented game? What if its 2 PUGs that just have good synergy? Teamwork wins. In a Team Game Team work should always trump individual effort. ALWAYS.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Joseph Mallan, on 31 January 2014 - 04:17 AM, said:

This is a surprise to you? You believe you should be able to beat 4 coordinating players who are working as a team against you in a team oriented game? What if its 2 PUGs that just have good synergy? Teamwork wins. In a Team Game Team work should always trump individual effort. ALWAYS.

Again Joe, How is it a team oriented game when you can only drop as four and cant readily communicate with the rest?

Only teams are in 12 mans. the rest are Mobs. Some gang bangers and some pugs.

At some point you have to reason this out.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mudhutwarrior, on 31 January 2014 - 04:22 AM, said:

Again Joe, How is it a team oriented game when you can only drop as four and cant readily communicate with the rest?

Only teams are in 12 mans. the rest are Mobs. Some gang bangers and some pugs.

At some point you have to reason this out.

I blame us players for this. We had a full range of possibilities to drop against for months. When I dropped as a PUG vs an 8man and I got rolled, I accepted it for what it was. A better team beating a disorganized one. And When I got on Comms An my 6 man got beat It was the same thing, the better team won. Then when I became a Lawman and our 8 man got rolled, it was cause the enemy was sporting the Meta FotM and thus once again the better team won yet again. A team game is won by the better team. If the better team is using a service I could be using, and I whine cause I'm not using it, to me that is just poor sportsmanship. I have TS3, if I don't use it I don't blame my opponents cause they are. That's being a Scrub.

[Roland]

Lots of folks want to be crappy players and not put in the effort to get better, but then also don't want to have to acknowledge that they are poor players by losing repeatedly.

[Galenit]

Roland, on 31 January 2014 - 06:41 AM, said:

Lots of folks want to be crappy players and not put in the effort to get better, but then also don't want to have to acknowledge that they are poor players by losing repeatedly.

And you want to play against the crappy players?

[Joseph Mallan]

Galenit, on 31 January 2014 - 07:19 AM, said:

And you want to play against the crappy players?

As well as the awesome players, you bet I do! I wanna drop with and against every and any player of the game at any time. That is an awesome way to play, never knowing if you drop against Khob or Wispy ( that Oh Sit moment), or Me and DaZur(this should be interesting!), Or the FNG and his pal(Ahh Easy money!)! That is awesome match making in my book.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 31 January 2014 - 07:49 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mudhutwarrior, on 31 January 2014 - 04:22 AM, said:

Again Joe, How is it a team oriented game when you can only drop as four and cant readily communicate with the rest?

Only teams are in 12 mans. the rest are Mobs. Some gang bangers and some pugs.

At some point you have to reason this out.

I could type. The team could also type. I would be very interested in following a player who gives direction. I had a awesome game working with a 4 man of lights even though I had no Comm connection with them. So you can function as a 5man even if you don't have an ear on your team mates. I ended up having the 3rd best score of the 5man without comms. Doesn't happen often enough, but that is more my not using comms than I din't have them

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 31 January 2014 - 11:10 AM.

[Sandpit]

Roland, on 31 January 2014 - 06:41 AM, said:

Lots of folks want to be crappy players and not put in the effort to get better, but then also don't want to have to acknowledge that they are poor players by losing repeatedly.

This is exactly why I think some push for the whole single player thing. (Not all mind you but some). They want a mech game but they aren't doing well in a PvP setting and want an easier experience in a single player environment. That's not a knock on anyone, some just aren't going to ahve fun in a PvP setting.

[Roland]

Galenit, on 31 January 2014 - 07:19 AM, said:

And you want to play against the crappy players?

I don't care who I play against.
If I play against a poor player and win, that's fine.
If I play against a good player and lose, that's also fine, because I'll incorporate that experience to become better.

I have no desire for the game to make some misguided attempt to "protect" me from playing better players.

[AEgg]

Joseph Mallan, on 31 January 2014 - 07:54 AM, said:

I could type. The team could also type. I would be very interested in following a player who gives direction. I had a awesome game working with a 4 man of lights even though I had no Comm connection with them. So you can function as a 5man even if you don't have an ear on your team mates. I ended up having the 3rd best score of the 5man without comms. Doesn't happen often enough, but that is more my not using comms than I din't have them

Typing requires not using your keyboard for movement. It is inherently inferior to voice communication.

Randoms do not have any possibility whatsoever of voice communication, and are thus at a huge disadvantage compared to any group. You can't just say "use Vent/Mumble/Skype/TS3", because that is literally impossible for anyone in the random queue. There's no way you are going to convince 11 other people to all start up Vent and get them all into the same channel in the twenty seconds you have before the round starts.

Add integrated VoIP, and the problem goes away (well, except for groups who only use third party programs and thus can't communicate with the rest of their team, but that's their own fault).

Roland, on 31 January 2014 - 12:55 PM, said:

I don't care who I play against.
If I play against a poor player and win, that's fine.
If I play against a good player and lose, that's also fine, because I'll incorporate that experience to become better.

I have no desire for the game to make some misguided attempt to "protect" me from playing better players.

Currently separating premades and randoms isn't about better or worse players. It's about separating players with a distinct advantage over everyone else (voice chat).

Edited by AEgg, 31 January 2014 - 04:20 PM.

[Jon Gotham]

Iskareot, on 30 January 2014 - 06:56 AM, said:

And man am I glad this is a video game where the focus is not to win or lose but to have fun... ALSO for the concept that I expect to be given a fair shake at things as either a SOLO or Premade player. This is not the ARMY where we would say ... tough it out.. or my Military School where you would get your *** kicked just for looking at someone wrong and you would just be beat up and say "Deal with it".... No this is NOT what this is...

This is a game where you actually join it as a solo player, pay as a solo player and then are ENCOURAGED to join a team so you do not get rolled and or learn something. There is no forced game here... so then you have to ask .. why can't we choose the types of drops we want to do on what maps we want even.

Don't take anything away but give options. That's all...

What it should do is:
If team A has a four man in it-so should team B. With roughly comparable weights as well. Because your team would then have VC using 4 man as well as theirs, sound fair?
I made the comments about my 12 man experiences because the scale of difference is a whole new level. A 4 man "can" rofl your team read "can" in a 12 man unless you bring the biggest, meta hugging mechs you can and throw away as much bills via AS as possible.....
I play solo and in 4 mans. Solo is fine for me, it gives me the chance to try thngs out away from group tactics etc. I see a 4 man on enemy team I'm never bothered unless it's 4 assaults.
Sorry if I offended you, but I'm fairly opinionated on this subject and fervently believe the playerbase does NOT need splitting up further. I once spent a total of 30 mins joining a unit's website, logging onto TS and saying "hi" for the first time That's 30 mins for 5 month's of improved playing experience-not bad time investment eh?
Met some great people as well.
Interestingly, I never would have met them at all if I had not been fighting alongside their 4 man in a pug game......

[Mystere]

AEgg, on 31 January 2014 - 04:16 PM, said:

Typing requires not using your keyboard for movement. It is inherently inferior to voice communication.

Analog Movement Controls + Speech-to-Text Software = Profit!

[Roland]

AEgg, on 31 January 2014 - 04:16 PM, said:

Currently separating premades and randoms isn't about better or worse players. It's about separating players with a distinct advantage over everyone else (voice chat).

I pug a LOT, and I have absolutely no problem playing against premade teams.

And generally, they are better than a lot of pugs.. at least, better than the pugs who freak out about how premades are unfair.

[Xtrekker]

Joseph Mallan, on 31 January 2014 - 04:17 AM, said:

This is a surprise to you? You believe you should be able to beat 4 coordinating players who are working as a team against you in a team oriented game? What if its 2 PUGs that just have good synergy? Teamwork wins. In a Team Game Team work should always trump individual effort. ALWAYS.

No, that's not what I was trying to say. I was saying that solo players, even good ones, can't typically overcome the advantage of four guys on comms. Yes, sure it happens, but in this game, it's pretty rare.

I understand it's a challenge. But to be competitive on that level, people have to set aside the time to organize a group, to make sure everyone has all their little technical kinks worked out, they have to be in an environment that allows them to probably talk loudly, and they have to be willing to do fewer drops because of everyone's bio breaks, etc. I generally can't do that with any kind of regularity because I'm a grown-up with a family and a job. When I have time, I jump in as a casual solo for a couple of hours (usually late) to get my mech on. And there are a LOT of people like me. For the typical casual solo player, the disparity between that kind of experience and a voice-coordinated team experience is astronomical.

I'm not saying comms or being organized is bad! It's great, and I agree that is what this game is built on. But that organization has a place and a purpose, and when given the opportunity it can certainly be abused.

Last night I was running late and apparently the pool was so shallow that I ran into the same 4 man team at least 4 times over an hour or so. Every game they ran the same very effective builds. They layered their fire to the point of basically preventing anyone from getting within 300 meters of them. Every game they all lived. Every game they had the most damage and the most kills. If you managed to get some bit of damage on one, they all turned and focused on you...LRMs, PPCs, ballistics. Yes, that was the better team. All props are given! But it will always be the better team unless another team with that same advantage steps up. Do they belong in the casual solo queue? Hell no, and you know it. If anything, the good solos should be PUGs for THEIR queue.

Edit: Just deleted the last couple of paragraphs because they were just inflammatory.

Edited by Xtrekker, 01 February 2014 - 12:25 AM.

[Deathlike]

TBH, it would be easier had PGI figured out to put in some sort of premade-factor (with math) and then separated every ELO group into 2, 3, or even 4 tiers (based on reasonable ELO ranges) and then stick people together within the appropriate brackets.

It would save them a host of time and effort, and it doesn't require too much work (at least in concept anyways).

Of course, that's asking too much I guess.

Edited by Deathlike, 31 January 2014 - 10:32 PM.

[Fooooo]

I still say showing the premades in the match via little icons, just like world of tanks does it, is the best way forward....well, at least a quick and easy way to move at least 1 step.

As soon as everyone who does not group can physically see theres a 4man on the other side and a 4man on theirs they will start to calm a little.....as they cannot say the sides are unfair in a grouping sense. (voip comms difference basically does not matter if both sides have an equal sized group on comms)

I guess that also includes me as I have never grouped in mwo yet, not that I have a sense of unfairness while playing atm, I take the enemys as enemys.

Even when I see a group I know of, ie If i see villz and co, then I know that even if I have a 4man on my side we probably screwed unless I can play like a god that match....that still doesnt make me think its "unfair" tho.



On the other-side, if the MM atm is not matching premades then everyone will know it and the forums will be flooded for sure........

Further down the line you can add a non-grouped queue to the 2 we have now imo (12man and 2-4man Mixed)

Show the premades by icons and then do basically what deathlike just said. (tho it may already be matching each teams groups seperatly by elo for all we know.....i doubt it tho, and some groups would take advantage of that with alt accounts tbh.......tho you cant avoid that either way.....)

Edited by Fooooo, 01 February 2014 - 12:05 AM.

[PYR0MANCER]

Just let the PUGs be able to talk to each other with built in VOIP... That's been the problem THE WHOLE TIME...


Sometimes you have to wonder just why the basic things that seem to be in all FPS' aren't in this game...

[Joseph Mallan]

Xtrekker, on 31 January 2014 - 10:27 PM, said:

No, that's not what I was trying to say. I was saying that solo players, even good ones, can't typically overcome the advantage of four guys on comms. Yes, sure it happens, but in this game, it's pretty rare.

I understand it's a challenge. But to be competitive on that level, people have to set aside the time to organize a group, to make sure everyone has all their little technical kinks worked out, they have to be in an environment that allows them to probably talk loudly, and they have to be willing to do fewer drops because of everyone's bio breaks, etc. I generally can't do that with any kind of regularity because I'm a grown-up with a family and a job. When I have time, I jump in as a casual solo for a couple of hours (usually late) to get my mech on. And there are a LOT of people like me. For the typical casual solo player, the disparity between that kind of experience and a voice-coordinated team experience is astronomical.

I'm not saying comms or being organized is bad! It's great, and I agree that is what this game is built on. But that organization has a place and a purpose, and when given the opportunity it can certainly be abused.

Last night I was running late and apparently the pool was so shallow that I ran into the same 4 man team at least 4 times over an hour or so. Every game they ran the same very effective builds. They layered their fire to the point of basically preventing anyone from getting within 300 meters of them. Every game they all lived. Every game they had the most damage and the most kills. If you managed to get some bit of damage on one, they all turned and focused on you...LRMs, PPCs, ballistics. Yes, that was the better team. All props are given! But it will always be the better team unless another team with that same advantage steps up. Do they belong in the casual solo queue? Hell no, and you know it. If anything, the good solos should be PUGs for THEIR queue.

Edit: Just deleted the last couple of paragraphs because they were just inflammatory.

A team game should not cater to individuals. I the idea is that teamwork will win a game then the player base should want to have that advantage. Having VOiP would give PUGs the ability to communicate as well as Pre mades, but pre mades will have the advantage of working together longer in most cases. When I PUG I don't expect to win as often as I do when grouped. and I accept that truth. Once we have an actual game to play, there may be a solo only que. But for now, with this mere skeleton of a game, PUGs have to wear some thicker skin, and I have PUGged way more than played as a Lawman fr the last 6-8 months.

[M4NTiC0R3X]

In the near future I'll be joining the no queue 'cos I won't be playing. Congratulations PGI, I don't even care about the big software anymore.

Ghetto game feels ghetto.

Edited by M4NTiC0R3X, 01 February 2014 - 05:40 AM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

private matches? so why would their be a need to separate them on a public level