511 replies to this topic

[Nick Makiaveli]

Khobai, on 26 January 2014 - 08:15 AM, said:

But if those same people always drop with eachother, their ELO is going to be similar anyway. So how does that help?

The DHB, for example, has more than 4 people. So while I do try to drop with a RL friend when he's on, I usually just jump into the first empty dropship (ie TS channel) and drop with whomever is on.

Also, it helps because it inflates the lower skilled people to balance the increased teamwork that is supposedly happening. You can't just cherry pick certain types of pre-mades, ie RL friends who only drop together and ignore the large Merc units and the people who team up randomly on the public servers.

Khobai, on 26 January 2014 - 08:15 AM, said:

Theres really only three options to balance premades vs pugs:

1) limit premade size to max 2 players.

Great idea, keep people from teaming up with their friends, that's sure to help grow the game.

Khobai, on 26 January 2014 - 08:15 AM, said:

2) limit premade tonnage to ~220 tons for 4 players. I personally am against this option since its basically the tonnage police telling you what mechs you can and cant play.

Better yet, tonnage limits for the group. Which is coming, so let's wait and see how that works out.

Khobai, on 26 January 2014 - 08:15 AM, said:

3) add respawn gamemodes so pug vs premade doesnt matter anymore

So you are assuming that pre-mades always beat PUGs, thus having them respawn will fix things? That makes no sense in skirmish mode, unless you want to keep score by total kills, but by your logic that would just lead to pre-mades winning anyway. Oh and it would completely destroy the mech combat simulation concept.

Here's a proposal, download TS, visit Comstar's server, or join a merc unit. Poof you have your own pre-mades to join.

Don't want to? Then don't. But this is a team based game, not a solo one. Military combat, not spies sneaking around. Sci-fi, but not clones. This is Battletech....love it, deal with it, or **** mmmmkay?

[Dirkdaring]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 26 January 2014 - 07:57 AM, said:

I'm currently sitting through the 4th failed attempt to find a 12 man game with it set to "Any".

I don't need PGI to tell me this game's population is tiny.

Edit: And we just disbanded to do 4 man's so we can play.

12 is a lot of people to get together with at one time, I'm not surprised you all couldn't find a match.

In the future I could see them maybe matching you up against 2 6 mans or something similar.

[Nick Makiaveli]

Khobai, on 26 January 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

unlikely that splitting one queue into two would cause problems like that.

Really? Potentially cutting the available members in half?

Actually more, since you guys advocate separating pre-mades and PUGs, then splitting off new players. So that's 4 separate queues, since some new players will join pre-mades on Comstar. So potentially cutting the numbers four ways.


Also, any proof that you got murdered by pre-mades? You do know that the pre-game list is alphabetized by name right? That just because you see 4 Steiner or Marik tags doesn't mean they are a pre-made? That all Lone Wolves and Mercs have the same tag right? That not all Founder's know each other. That just because 4 mechs team up and focus fire on you doesn't meant they are on TS, it could just be they are smart enough to know how to play.

[Trauglodyte]

This is a moot point if VOIP was available in game.

Being a PUG doesn't make you bad. It just saddles you with no communication. Then again, even having comms doesn't grant you an instant win by leaps and bounds. It just means that the window for success is a bit better than not. In a 4 man premade, you've still got to deal with 8 others that may or may not understand the game, may or may not care about the out come, and may or may not tell you to go to Hell with your tactics/commands. "What we've got here is a failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we got here last week. Which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it!"

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Dirkdaring, on 26 January 2014 - 08:31 AM, said:

12 is a lot of people to get together with at one time, I'm not surprised you all couldn't find a match.

In the future I could see them maybe matching you up against 2 6 mans or something similar.

You don't see a problem with the 12 man queue being totally devoid of teams on a weekend? I mean I get it's not primetime or anything, but good lord this game does not show signs of life.

[Nick Makiaveli]

Trauglodyte, on 26 January 2014 - 08:39 AM, said:

This is a moot point if VOIP was available in game.

Being a PUG doesn't make you bad. It just saddles you with no communication. Then again, even having comms doesn't grant you an instant win by leaps and bounds. It just means that the window for success is a bit better than not. In a 4 man premade, you've still got to deal with 8 others that may or may not understand the game, may or may not care about the out come, and may or may not tell you to go to Hell with your tactics/commands. "What we've got here is a failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we got here last week. Which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it!"

So how would built-in VOIP fix any of that? You would have 12 people on comms. Why would any of them listen to what one of the others would say?

Yes I get the more people would get the message that 4 heavies are flanking in E4 over comms vs chat, but that doesn't mean they would respond or care.

Furthermore, even if they did, so what? Both teams have the same tools, just as they are even now. It wouldn't change anything.

This reminds me of the fiasco of the US Army and the black berets. Some {Dezgra} noticed that the Special Forces units had high morale, they all wore berets (green, maroon etc depending on unit) so the solution to the low morale in the regular army was to issue green berets to all. Needless to say there was an uproar, and so they stole the black berets from a lesser known unit and gave them to all units. Result? Moral dropped everywhere. Regular troops that weren't morons knew they were given an empty honor, the troops that had earned berets felt cheated.

Point? Comms isn't the main factor. It's teamwork, it's knowing the people you are working with. Comms helps, but I can say even if we didn't have TS, a DHB would have an edge because we have a common training experience, we would stick together (mostly, I tend to get lost a lot), focus fire etc. Sure sometimes we just drop with random mechs and barely any strategy, but we all know the same basic tactics etc and so we have an edge. God help you if we have an experienced drop-caller who is willing to take charge...

[Bagheera]

Iskareot, on 25 January 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

So what would happen if pugs actually could fight their equal other solo players and premades had to fight their own equal premades?

I'll play along with this hypothetical. Let's remove population from the problem for our adventure, shall we?

Here's what would happen, given enough population to support separate queues:

The "Pre-made" queue would go on, barely noticing the change, save that they are not running into as many completely derpy opponents any more.

The Random queue (Because everyone here ******* uses PUG wrong) however would be very interesting. Matches would play out exactly like they do now: Teams that work together will flourish, and teams with too many UnrealCODLEETSNIPERRAMBOs would get slaughtered just like they do now.

Then those same RAMBOS would come to the forum complaining about stomps, and how it simply must be that pre-made teams are hacking their way into the Random queue, because there are still teams in the Random queue utilizing "teamwork."

So, basically, nothing would change.

Have a nice day, that was a fun ride down Hypothetical Hill. Sadly, Hypothetical Hill is the only place to go snowboarding right now, which is the only reason I am here. Effing 17% snow pack.

[Hellen Wheels]

number of alienware bobble head codes taken to date: 5000+

of course, there are some folks who have two or more accounts, so some of those are duplicates.

Offset, of course, by the folks (like myself) who have no interest in such things, and don't take a code.

There are a lot fewer pre-mades dropping than solo players.

Draw your own conclusions.

[Henry Morgan]

Mudhutwarrior, on 26 January 2014 - 06:23 AM, said:

You leave out it casuals noobs and those who just want to drop and fight. In game voice has been around since 1999 yet we dont have it and its created this friction that been hear since the start. Try solving a problem rather than beating everyone into the same box. People posting about split ques and in game voip are not trying to kill the game or wipe out the player base. they are trying to increase it and make the gameplay better for (wait for it) Everyone.

For someone who claims to be concerned about the casual players, I find your hypocrisy amusing.

Speaking as a casual, we play a game to have fun. We have limited play time, so the fun factor is important. We also have disposable income to pay for things we find worth the entertainment value. Because we have jobs, families, etc... that prioritize our time. And, because we're casual, its easier for us to walk away from something that becomes no longer entertaining for fun.

Why bring all that up? Because the hypocrisy you preach blinds you to the fact that players like you can cause paying customers to quit games and move onto something else. And, PGI is equally at fault, for their apparently lax enforcement of their in-game rules, and especially their insistence on refusing to provide any sort of in-game ignore feature to allow players to block other players who behave poorly.

Casuals don't want to play a game and see strings of profanities being spewed in the game, directed at other players. Casuals don't want to play a game where slurs are unblocked, and done repeatedly by the same players. Casuals don't want to play a game where the same players engage in harassing behavior against other players again and again. The same type of players who proudly post in the forum about how they're refusing to spend any money on the game, or how they're only playing temporarily until some real-life event takes place. Casuals won't continue playing, or paying, for entertainment, that isn't.

The problem is, PGI hasn't figured out if they want the casuals with disposable income to continue paying, they need to take the garbage out. The disruptive, window-shoppers are going to cost them more in the long run than any sort of in-game voice will. The disruptive player only represents potential income, whereas the casual player who has actually spent money on the game is a source of income.

The casual player will spend money where they find entertainment value, and where they are treated like a valued customer. Not an ATM machine.

[Dirkdaring]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 26 January 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

You don't see a problem with the 12 man queue being totally devoid of teams on a weekend? I mean I get it's not primetime or anything, but good lord this game does not show signs of life.

No, I don't. Again - it's not easy getting 12 people into a group for this game. I played WoW in several guilds for years, it was even hard enough getting a 10 man going at times and that game has a zillion times more content than this does.

Plus - people do exactly what you all did. Try and find a games a few times and break up into smaller teams. I'd bet you weren't the only team doing that...

Edited by Dirkdaring, 26 January 2014 - 10:59 AM.

[Felbombling]

At the end of the day, isn't the real problem the lack of indication of premade groups? The assumption that a game goes badly due to premade groups causes all the unrest, in my opinion. I don't understand why groups are not clearly indicated on the start-up screen as War Thunder and/or World of Tanks does it. For all anyone knows, games are being contested between three four man groups on one side and twelve PuG players on the other. Sure, PGI says this is impossible and cannot happen, but there is no indication one way or the other. I tried to get friends into the game and could not keep them interested. They felt they were getting fed to the wolves, and that was at least eighteen months ago. Meh... PGI seems to be fine with the situation, so be it.

[Screech]

Bagheera, on 26 January 2014 - 10:11 AM, said:

The Random queue (Because everyone here ******* uses PUG wrong) however would be very interesting. Matches would play out exactly like they do now:

Great analysis. So random queues would become interesting yet still play exactly the same. BRILLIANT! I haven't encountered so a well thought out display in mental agility since the last time I sharted myself.

[Nick Makiaveli]

Dirkdaring, on 26 January 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

No, I don't. Again - it's not easy getting 12 people into a group for this game. I played WoW in several guilds for years, it was even hard enough getting a 10 man going at times and that game has a zillion times more content than this does.

Plus - people do exactly what you all did. Try and find a games a few times and break up into smaller teams. I'd bet you weren't the only team doing that...

Sadly, he has a point. No one wants to sit around waiting for the MM to fail, so they give up. Since it's hard to get 12 mans going, many times people just don't even bother. I know people who don't even try because they don't want to risk wasting 30 minutes trying and failing.

Self-fulfilling prophecy.....

Henry Morgan, on 26 January 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

<edited for length.

I don't disagree with much you say, and I have yet to agree with Mud on the color of the sky, but i don't follow what you are getting at...care to clarify?

[Mystere]

StaggerCheck, on 26 January 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

At the end of the day, isn't the real problem the lack of indication of premade groups? The assumption that a game goes badly due to premade groups causes all the unrest, in my opinion. I don't understand why groups are not clearly indicated on the start-up screen as War Thunder and/or World of Tanks does it. For all anyone knows, games are being contested between three four man groups on one side and twelve PuG players on the other. Sure, PGI says this is impossible and cannot happen, but there is no indication one way or the other. I tried to get friends into the game and could not keep them interested. They felt they were getting fed to the wolves, and that was at least eighteen months ago. Meh... PGI seems to be fine with the situation, so be it.

The only problem with this is that many players will probably just disconnect when they think the odds are stacked against them. It is happening even now when the other team "sees" a 4-man Legendary founder or faction lance. These players don't even know that the opposing team is actually sorted by name.

[Nick Makiaveli]

Screech, on 26 January 2014 - 11:14 AM, said:

Great analysis. So random queues would become interesting yet still play exactly the same. BRILLIANT! I haven't encountered so a well thought out display in mental agility since the last time I sharted myself.

You missed the sarcasm.

@StaggerCheck You mean your friends didn't want to hang around long enough to learn the game. It's complicated, and takes time to learn. Do you know what the six boxes around your crosshairs mean? Can you interpret all the icons on the right side of the screen that pop up from time to time?

Plus the mechanic of torso twisting independent of the legs is hard to get used to for most people if they've never experienced it before.

Point being, this isn't an easy game to pick up. Thus it isn't for everyone. Many of us like the sim aspects and don't want it simplified down to a mere arcade game.

[Davers]

Well PGI seems to disagree with this thread since they are expanding group sizes to 2-12. I guess my question would be "Why does PGI think it is ok for a 12 man premade to drop against 12 PUGs?"

[Felbombling]

@Mystere Well, I don't see people disconnecting from War Thunder or World of Tanks matches when they see a platoon in the start up screen, so I don't see why people would do the same thing here. Having said that, the teams are usually split evenly between two sides. If PGI is unable to keep a balanced number of teams on either side of the match, I could for certain see people jumping ship before a match even starts.

@Nick Makiaveli They didn't just give up on the game due to mechanics or a learning curve [hey... a tutorial or info in game would have been helpful], I imagine they gave up because they could understand that PGI was pitting them against players with endo-steel internal structure, min-maxed weapon load outs and double heat sinks while they were playing with Trial Mechs. You are correct... MechWarrior: Online is not an easy game to pick up, but games like War Thunder and World of Tanks have tutorials and a starting game experience that makes the transition into game much more bearable... and informative.

[Mystere]

StaggerCheck, on 26 January 2014 - 11:58 AM, said:

@Mystere Well, I don't see people disconnecting from War Thunder or World of Tanks matches when they see a platoon in the start up screen, so I don't see why people would do the same thing here. Having said that, the teams are usually split evenly between two sides. If PGI is unable to keep a balanced number of teams on either side of the match, I could for certain see people jumping ship before a match even starts.

I don't play those other games so I have no comment on them. But, I do see people now who disconnect when they "see" that the other team has premades and theirs "don't".

[Felbombling]

Or see the map that they're on... or their connection craps out... or their cat stepped on their keyboard.

[Nick Makiaveli]

StaggerCheck, on 26 January 2014 - 11:58 AM, said:

@Mystere Well, I don't see people disconnecting from War Thunder or World of Tanks matches when they see a platoon in the start up screen, so I don't see why people would do the same thing here. Having said that, the teams are usually split evenly between two sides. If PGI is unable to keep a balanced number of teams on either side of the match, I could for certain see people jumping ship before a match even starts.

@Nick Makiaveli They didn't just give up on the game due to mechanics or a learning curve [hey... a tutorial or info in game would have been helpful], I imagine they gave up because they could understand that PGI was pitting them against players with endo-steel internal structure, min-maxed weapon load outs and double heat sinks while they were playing with Trial Mechs. You are correct... MechWarrior: Online is not an easy game to pick up, but games like War Thunder and World of Tanks have tutorials and a starting game experience that makes the transition into game much more bearable... and informative.

Hey now, I never said the devs didn't screw the poodle with not having a tutorial and then releasing one that is barely a step above none at all.

And my point holds. All your friends had to do was play 25 matches, get the bonus cash, buy something other than an Assault and trick it out. So basically they didn't have the maturity to handle losing in order to learn and decided they were losing not because they aren't as leet and uber as mommy was telling them while watching the game over their shoulders, but because they were out-gunned etc.

No great loss in my book.

StaggerCheck, on 26 January 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

Or see the map that they're on... or their connection craps out... or their cat stepped on their keyboard.

2 of which are legit, one of which is a reportable offense the same as quitting over pre-mades.

And yes, I usually, as a joke, start my reports with Hey guys, it's me again!!!