511 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

Pugs and premades are going to be grouped together in CW unless you all forgot about that. So it's not going to change.

Yes we get that. And the way PGI plans on balancing premades is by imposing tonnage limits on groups. But like I already pointed out, premades will gravitate towards the most efficient distribution of tonnage, which will result in only the most efficient chassis' being used. Any mech that isnt efficient for its weight will be deemed useless. Its going to create an entirely new way to meta the game. I have some very serious concerns about that.

To me, the ideal system, is one where mechs of all tonnages are used in equal proportion. I just dont see this system accomplishing that.

Edited by Khobai, 26 January 2014 - 04:10 PM.

[Roland]

Khobai, on 26 January 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:

Yes we get that. And the way PGI plans on balancing premades is by imposing tonnage limits on groups. But like I already pointed out, premades will gravitate towards the most efficient distribution of tonnage, which will result in only the most efficient chassis' being used. Any mech that isnt efficient for its weight will be deemed useless. Its going to create an entirely new way to meta the game. I have some very serious concerns about that.

To me, the ideal system, is one where mechs of all tonnages are used in equal proportion. I dont see this system accomplishing that.

This is why I've suggested, multiple times, to instead use a market based battle value system... which will automatically balance different chassis.

Even the "garbage" chassis will automatically get very low values then, effectively making them almost free to take in a limited system.

You'd still be left in a case where folks can't drop in only the best mechs, all the time... but frankly, that's the only way the system will ever be balanced.

It's just like the folks who say they want to be able to drop in an assault mech every single round, but then complain that light mechs kill them. Their viewpoint is effectively untenable.

[Basskicker]

Nick Makiaveli, on 26 January 2014 - 02:40 PM, said:

Do you really believe the solo's players will listen to what is being said? That they will actually have team work? That the Khorne worshippers will stop chasing kills? That the Slaanesh worshippers will stop chasing squirrels?

That it won't be full of your momma jokes?

I can state this with absolute certainty. I will only ever join it with a recorder running so I can attach it to the inevitable reports.

I think you listened in on 1 too many CoD or Halo MP games. Yea you're going to have the trolls, but honestly there is no way to be rid of them... Most players in this game are probably on average 10 years older than the average CoD or Halo player, so for the most part I think we would have a decent level of maturity.

Plus a good integrated VoIP would have the option of muting certain players if they became a little to eccentric. Otherwise why do you think Halo and CoD have been so successful? Surely all the older, more mature players would have quit a long time ago if they had to listen to some 6 year old call someone a B¡@+¢|-| four hundred times a match.

[Goose of Prey]

Quote

I bet it will be this non-premade queue that will dwindle as soon as people realize playing with not-teamplayers and socially challanged only is no fun at all.

So people that don't want to play this game your way, and want an equal footing in the game are, "socially challenged". Maybe it's because people that need to exploit, then blame the new players for being exploited, are kind-of jerks? Just throwing that out there as another possibility. "squawk" anyone?

[Rebas Kradd]

Roland, on 26 January 2014 - 04:12 PM, said:

You'd still be left in a case where folks can't drop in only the best mechs, all the time... but frankly, that's the only way the system will ever be balanced.

So, you agree that artificial solutions (which Ghost Heat falls under) are our only hope?

[BLOOD WOLF]

Iskareot, on 25 January 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

So what would happen if pugs actually could fight their equal other solo players and premades had to fight their own equal premades?

What would be so bad about that balance of play?

Obvious pros are equal or at least MORE balance then we have now based on logic....

But would the matches go longer? Would the pugs be mad that we were more or less organized?

Would the premades be mad they could not farm the pugs? OR that they would have balance forced on them?

Why is this still not in the game? NOBODY should lose any options.. make that clear.. both sides should be able to keep their fun. But shouldn't new people and current players have a choice of the way to drop to help balance the matches?

What is so wrong about this? Not enough people? (IF this Is the case we have bigger issues).

equal? just because someones plays without a team doesn't mean they are any better or any worse. this why i dont like the word pugs, acting like your better than another player becuase of what they choose to do. Unless their new to the game, that's a different story. when i decided i wanted to play with others, i still chose to play alone. The fun part is, i still do my part in any situation

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 26 January 2014 - 05:08 PM.

[Nightcrept]

The game cannot be balanced if pre-mades are playing with and against random pugs. It's just that simple.

And many pugs will never use or listen to coms. And coms is the key that gives pre-mades their advantage. And it's a huge one.


The problem is that this game does not have enough of a pre-made population to allow for a pre-made only game mode.
Some of you may have been around long enough to remember pgi's experiments with that very game mode type.

This game desperately needs separate game modes but pgi can't until or even if the player population gets high enough.

[Nightcrept]

Basskicker, on 26 January 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

I think you listened in on 1 too many CoD or Halo MP games. Yea you're going to have the trolls, but honestly there is no way to be rid of them... Most players in this game are probably on average 10 years older than the average CoD or Halo player, so for the most part I think we would have a decent level of maturity.

Plus a good integrated VoIP would have the option of muting certain players if they became a little to eccentric. Otherwise why do you think Halo and CoD have been so successful? Surely all the older, more mature players would have quit a long time ago if they had to listen to some 6 year old call someone a B¡@+¢|-| four hundred times a match.

Most pugs (like me) have seemed to indicate that they would just turn it off. So pgi seems to have pretty much decided it's a waste of time.

[Basskicker]

Nightcrept, on 26 January 2014 - 05:22 PM, said:

Most pugs (like me) have seemed to indicate that they would just turn it off. So pgi seems to have pretty much decided it's a waste of time.

Just out of curiosity... will you turn it off because of what you MIGHT hear on it, or because you just really don't like any type of team play? Any modern, successful, multiplayer, team based videogame has VoIP. If you don't want it then clearly you don't have to use it. Just like how we have pugs, now, who elect to not join a group and use TS3.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Nightcrept, on 26 January 2014 - 05:22 PM, said:

Most pugs (like me) have seemed to indicate that they would just turn it off. So pgi seems to have pretty much decided it's a waste of time.

I wouldn't turn it off myself. May not have anything to say but having one ear on the headset could save you or someone else. It also would be the best live teaching tool for noobs. I was told in match by an IGP guy it was planned and is coming. One of their posts on CW stated the same in vague terms about lobby coms moving into a match.

[BLOOD WOLF]

whether your in a team or just playing by yourself , it comes down to communication. not only that but lance leaders and company commanders have the tools to guide their squads. If your not on a team you really shouldn't be penalized in any sort of way. so in game Voip is a must. yes, there should be a training hall for cadets, more than just movement. you tube for now has a lot of tutorials so new players really dont have to much of a excuse when it comes to knowledge about this game.

[StaIker]

I really wonder what is happening to people when getting flogged in a VIDEO GAME requires complaints and requests to the Devs to change the system.

Whatever happened to sucking it up, dusting yourself off and improving. The people complaining about being stomped are players of mediocre skill and no heart what-so-ever. In the Mech4 days we'd have stomped someone even harder for complaining like a little girl, stomped them until they left the server in shame. There should be a disclaimer at the start of every drop;

If you're going to complain like a little b!tch when you get killed, Mechwarrior is not the game for you.

Edited by StaIker, 26 January 2014 - 05:57 PM.

[Mudhutwarrior]

StaIker, on 26 January 2014 - 05:56 PM, said:

I really wonder what is happening to people when getting flogged in a VIDEO GAME requires complaints and requests to the Devs to change the system.

Whatever happened to sucking it up, dusting yourself off and improving. The people complaining about being stomped are players of mediocre skill and no heart what-so-ever. In the Mech4 days we'd have stomped someone even harder for complaining like a little girl, stomped them until they left the server in shame. There should be a disclaimer at the start of every drop;

If you're going to complain like a little b!tch when you get killed, Mechwarrior is not the game for you.

Maybe I can help. This is a Forum.

fo·rum
ˈfôrəm/
noun
noun: forum; plural noun: forums; plural noun: fora
1.
a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.


Does that help any?

[wanderer]

StaIker, on 26 January 2014 - 05:56 PM, said:

Whatever happened to sucking it up, dusting yourself off and improving. The people complaining about being stomped are players of mediocre skill and no heart what-so-ever. In the Mech4 days we'd have stomped someone even harder for complaining like a little girl, stomped them until they left the server in shame. There should be a disclaimer at the start of every drop;

If you're going to complain like a little b!tch when you get killed, Mechwarrior is not the game for you.

They've been doing that since beta. Guess why the player base dried up?

PUG stomp after PUG stompfest. Newbies stuck in crappy 'Mechs for target practice till they fixed that, too.

[Nightcrept]

Basskicker, on 26 January 2014 - 05:42 PM, said:

Just out of curiosity... will you turn it off because of what you MIGHT hear on it, or because you just really don't like any type of team play? Any modern, successful, multiplayer, team based videogame has VoIP. If you don't want it then clearly you don't have to use it. Just like how we have pugs, now, who elect to not join a group and use TS3.

I spend all day dealing with people. When I come home I want to relax and not deal with other people going on and on about stuff. So I play the game to relax not to be competitive.

Mind you I have been in and actually ran multiple clans/guilds/groups in all sorts of games. And if cw is any good I may join or start one again and have my various old buddies come over and join me.

But when I'm puging that is all I want to be.


I will listen to typed requests like join up or move to epi or just a plane old help at c3 etc.

I have made more then a few friends playing this game but all are pugs thus far. We keep in contact via facebook and stuff but we don't play together. Maybe that will change maybe not.

[Nightcrept]

Mudhutwarrior, on 26 January 2014 - 05:47 PM, said:

I wouldn't turn it off myself. May not have anything to say but having one ear on the headset could save you or someone else. It also would be the best live teaching tool for noobs. I was told in match by an IGP guy it was planned and is coming. One of their posts on CW stated the same in vague terms about lobby coms moving into a match.

That would b nice for some but I wonder how many like me have little kids running around and can't use headsets or run the risk of the language some fools throw around.

And how would it effect the pre-mades with their own voips?
It will indeed be interesting to see if and when pgi implements that. My guess would be it is going to be a very very long ways away.

[StaIker]

wanderer, on 26 January 2014 - 06:10 PM, said:

They've been doing that since beta. Guess why the player base dried up?

PUG stomp after PUG stompfest. Newbies stuck in crappy 'Mechs for target practice till they fixed that, too.

The people that abandoned the game were the founders and Mechs fans. The people who replaced them are the new kids without any real experience in the IP. I hardly think getting killed is what made the veteran players quit. Other poorly designed aspects, sure, but not losing.

You can give a newbie the best equipment in the game and he'll still get crushed for at least his first hundred games and probably for a lot longer than that. At some point the adults have to say, Look kids, you learn or you leave. Some will go either direction but wrapping them in cotton wool and catering to their whining as if they have a genuine point is not helping anybody.

[StaIker]

To be fair, it's not all the newbies fault here. PGI's design of this game is simply awful, especially the new player experience but the teamwork and multi-player aspects in general are designed as badly as you could imagine. The learning curve is steeper than is should be or needs to be but it is the same learning curve everyone had to deal with. Veterans are just newbies who kept at it until they got good.

What too many players want is a padded room where they can feel like winners from game 1 because nothing can hurt them or make them feel bad. Giving into that childishness is generally a bad route to go down, as it validates a losers opinion that someone else is at fault for him being a loser. Keep pushing him in there and he'll improve to the point where he's no longer a newbie. Or quit. But you can't retain players who are so weak willed that being killed makes them want to quit the game, nothing you do for that kind of person is ever enough. There is always something else that is "unfair".

[wanderer]

StaIker, on 26 January 2014 - 06:46 PM, said:

The people that abandoned the game were the founders and Mechs fans. The people who replaced them are the new kids without any real experience in the IP. I hardly think getting killed is what made the veteran players quit. Other poorly designed aspects, sure, but not losing.

That's a lot like saying your Star Wars game is gonna succeed without the Star Wars fans. Read the archives. Plenty of folks went inactive, F2P or otherwise thanks to our abominable match system. They got tired of waiting for CW. New players dropped in droves when they were getting kicked in the teeth driving Trial 'Mechs and getting obliterated.

MWO has a -horrid- new player track. It's only not complete trash because we've managed to scream bloody murder enough to get Trial 'Mechs up to some level of quality relative to veteran players and the cadet bonus. There's still massive ELO differential, premades with VOIP are still worth two 'Mechs for every one in them, and learning the ropes is a magical mystery tour of "what does THIS do?" while being shot to death trying to do so.

When a game has trouble getting matches up without removing any filters for who plays in it, SOMETHING HAS GONE HORRIBLY WRONG WITH THE SYSTEM.

Quote

You can give a newbie the best equipment in the game and he'll still get crushed for at least his first hundred games and probably for a lot longer than that. At some point the adults have to say, Look kids, you learn or you leave. Some will go either direction but wrapping them in cotton wool and catering to their whining as if they have a genuine point is not helping anybody.

Then we need to keep the newbie out of the pool until they do learn. Or at least stop dropping them in the deep end.

[RG Notch]

Sandpit, on 26 January 2014 - 03:01 PM, said:

Sure thing. They're all true because it's the same exact thread. Again. If people want to keep blaming premades then they'll keep losing ebcause they aren't going to learn why they really lose


and yet, PGI, a company that relies on this game to pay their bills, hasn't done that yet. Maybe because factual data proves premades aren't the reason people lose? Point being it's never going to stop. Those "elite" players aren't going to accept that they just aren't as good as they thought they were.

PIG hasn't done it because they are also the people who know how many players they have, and it seems clear there aren't enough to split the queues anymore. One can argue the player base is stable or growing, but the fact that PIg wouldn't split the queues for 3PV, or for solo only, both of which were asked for a lot show that likely isn't true. Argue your anecdotal evidence all you want, but PGI removal of the player counter and refusal to split queues argues that it's true. They even held off another game mode until another forum revolt and right after started tuning Elo because waits were too long.
So argue that your group is bustling while PGI's action say otherwise.