22 replies to this topic

[Gordon Conner]

Now this is mainly from a lore and TT standpoint. Is omnitech good enough in terms of long term logistics in comparison to standard hard-wired counterparts?

Because in my opinion omnitech is superior in regards to helping to simplify the logistics at the price of increased production costs, at least where weapon mountings come in. Sure the base chassis still takes the same maintenance time, but pod mounted weapons and equipment actually take less time. But custom configuration's seem to be more simplistic to create with Omnitech.

I'll admit this right out of the gate that I am no professional battle tech player. So what is you're opinon on such a subject. Could the IS and Clan's afford to field 100% omnitech armies in a long term sense or will it most likely be to prohibitive to do such?


I think it can be done if they used standard armor,internals and engines to do such. Whilst making double heat sinks standard across the board.

[Thom Frankfurt]

Interesting thought. All in all Omnitech is good, as in ease of maintenance and being able to do repairs and customizations in a fraction of the time it'd take to do repairs or custom work. But Onmi's can't mount PPCs/AC's/or GRs in the arms of Onmis... Go figure... That and there is a increase construction cost for Omni's. *shrugs* I think that the omnimech rules would only really come into play if you were doing a campaign or maybe a grinding out scenario where slight repair time between sorties. I hope that helped a bit.

[Tyrnea Smurf]

I built and ran a massive campaign for near 2 years (1999-2001) covering the Clan Invasion 3049 - 3052 - our campaign ran to 3058).

When I built mine I factored in the advantage of Omnitech standardization vs the Great Houses mass production of varying different parts (dozens of manufacture's building parts to their own specs), but in much higher quantity's.

The original 16 Clan Onmimechs look like they shared a great deal of the same parts. If you look at the drawings, with the exception of 2 models, pairs within the same weight classes share the same leg/hip structures (and likely would share the same basic gyroscoptic systems), the TT rules on Omnimechs also point to a highly standardized construction system (engines, structures, HS Armor values, ect are placed and cannot be moved/adjusted).

All of that would not only increase industrial unit production numbers, but would make for greatly simplified logistical, repair/maintence, costs & capability.

The Clan armies on the move in 3049 would only need to stock a max of 10 differing gyro/legs systems, a dozen engine types, and the universal omnipod units for weapons of equipment, which would allow incredible adjustment in the field to the combat situations as the campaign progressed.

Inner Sphere forces on the other hand would have to carry, a different gyroscoptic/leg/hip assembily for each different model of Battlemech employed by the unit/regiment. Plus between 20 to 30 different engine types (not including how many of which ever rated engines would be most in demand based on the units TO & E) dozens of separate weapons systems (not withstanding the differences of say a Shadow Hawks arm mounted medium laser vs a Wasps arm mounted medium laser - which just looking as the concept art shows it would need a totally different housing and that each are purpose built by different manufacturers - in short a logistical/maintence nightmare) totally different say arm assemblies, cockpits ect.

The Clan logistical & industrial production would be much more efficient than the Inner Sphere system of parts supply line of better than 50 models designed over the course of several different centuries (Battlemechs designed from the 2400's to the 2900's.)

But the Inner Sphere as listed at that time have a 5 to 9 to 1 industrial production advantage.

The Clans have the better tech and production system, but the Inner Sphere Great Houses have way more planets with factories producing units (although I suspect the IS factories are producing significantly less per factory vs Clan, but when you have 10 factories to their 1...)

[Peiper]

RE: the OP.

I don't know if you've taken this into account or not in your thoughts, but very few mechs were customizing in the Inner Sphere. Only unit commanders and rich mercenaries could afford to alter their mechs, and when they did, they were often simple changes like weapon swaps. Another thing is, they wouldn't have many engines to choose from. For example, Atlases could only take 400, 300, 200, and 100 rated engines. There is no fractional accounting in Battletech like there is in Mechwarrior. Engagements and damages were differently applied too, so one or at max, two tons of ammo for a weapon was all you'd ever need. The engagement would be over before you went through it all, and armor (and internals) are doubled for MWO because of pinpoint targetting, which is very, very difficult to pull off in Battletech. My point is, standardization is cheaper and wholly necessary for a unit to move, reequip, repair and survive as they hop from planet to planet. Omnimechs may be more expensive, but they could be customized before a drop, where inner sphere mechs, well, you had what you brought with. But it was cheaper, and as long as your mechwarrior survived, you could give him a new, crappy Inner Sphere mech and put him back into rotation.

[Escef]

Thom Frankfurt, on 25 January 2014 - 06:17 PM, said:

But Onmi's can't mount PPCs/AC's/or GRs in the arms of Onmis... Go figure...

They can, they just can't do it and keep lower arm and hand actuators.

One of the advantages of omnitech that is not used in canon is that since refits and repairs can be done so quickly and easily is that you could easily have 2 warriors operate the same mech in day/night shifts. This would allow the equipment to be used to maintain a very high operational tempo.

Edited by Escef, 26 January 2014 - 01:46 AM.

[Gordon Conner]

The Timberwolf Alpha config and the kit fox Alt's Alpha and Bravo spring to mind, when the mention of either PPC's,AC's or GR's in the arms is said. I think(or at least suspect) that the lower arm and hand actuator's in the arms may be pod mountable or just plain easy to PNP.

Sure the IS' had more factories during the Clan invasion from 3049-3052 but the clans were mentioned of having efficiency over variety of the most part. The main reason I think why the clan could only afford to outfit their front line units with omni's at the time, was mainly because of the FF,ES and XL fusion engines used.

If they made a more simplistically constructed version using only double heat sinks and standard Armour,internals and engine's for their second line units, then they could have been able to keep their forces supplied and would have less constraints on supplies. If you guys can get what I men from this. Combine the rule's bonuses for omnitech with the easy to maintain quirk means (If you do use design quirk rules) that even green technician's can maintain them for the most part.

In the real world streamlined production has lead to armies being bigger then they are in battletech but only because of the fact that the creators of the TT were constrained by the size of table tops. where's battleforce is constructed from the ground up to try and emulate the larger scale games.

The Closest thing I find to full omni army are the lyran's with their tonnage bracket restriction's. Reducing the number of models of any unit seems to sort of help free up money on other things such as researching and developing new technology. though smaller group's such as smaller peripheral powers,pirates and small mercenary groups would most likely benefit in the long term with going 100% Omni on all units.

I can attest that I did at one time in playing a megamek match on the shack server against another player managed to pull off not one,not two but three head cap's in a row and lost only like maybe one to three mechs during the match.I can't remember which mechs I head capped exactly. But that is going abit off topic here.

Edited by Gordon Conner, 26 January 2014 - 04:33 AM.

[ValdnadHartagga]

As stated, the early Omnis share so many parts that it would be very logistically viable to use them. However, Clan logistics can be hampered by Clan pride. See Roar of Honor, where Wolf invaders failed to plan for a drawn-out conflict and, despite fielding OmniMechs, nearly ran out of ammo and spare parts before breaking bid and reinforcing. You can replace weapon pods until the cows come home, but only with the pods you brought with you.

[Thom Frankfurt]

Escef, on 26 January 2014 - 01:45 AM, said:

They can, they just can't do it and keep lower arm and hand actuators.

One of the advantages of omnitech that is not used in canon is that since refits and repairs can be done so quickly and easily is that you could easily have 2 warriors operate the same mech in day/night shifts. This would allow the equipment to be used to maintain a very high operational tempo.

Oh, I forgot that small detail.

[Tyrnea Smurf]

Escef, on 26 January 2014 - 01:45 AM, said:

They can, they just can't do it and keep lower arm and hand actuators.

One of the advantages of omnitech that is not used in canon is that since refits and repairs can be done so quickly and easily is that you could easily have 2 warriors operate the same mech in day/night shifts. This would allow the equipment to be used to maintain a very high operational tempo.

Only problem with that scenario is the Clan major shortcoming as designed and shown in the lore is they are extremely limited in manpower.

The Clan school of Warfare churns out superior pilots and soldiers, but it does so on a far more limited basis than the IS Great Houses. The analogy that springs to mind is the Clans are a small highly trained professional army that due to its equipment and tactical abilities have a significant force muliplyer, Vs the Great Houses system of huge peasant armies that by and large are considered throwaway, as both the pool of personnel to replace them is near endless (The population of the IS in the 3050's is in the several hundred billion range) and their revamped industrial production (thanks to the Grey Death Helm Memory Core) allow them to replace equipment losses fairly rapidly.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Gordon Conner, on 25 January 2014 - 04:50 PM, said:

Now this is mainly from a lore and TT standpoint. Is omnitech good enough in terms of long term logistics in comparison to standard hard-wired counterparts?

From a TT standpoint, yes and no. Yes, because most weapons, equipment, and all ammo are pod mountable if needs to be. IS Omnimechs in particular are wired for using both IS and Clan tech pods though it is never stated whether this is feature is found in Clan Omnis, it is a safe assumption... Assuming the Clanners in question are that desperate for gear. No, because campaign wise it gets expensive for IS players if they have a C-bill budget, converting anything to Omnitech makes it cost 25% more and that includes replacement parts. Clans distribute what they have without the need for money so it is a question of what is part of a bid or what the Clan (gamemaster) decides a unit needs.

Lore wise, definitely not. Omnitech is expensive, and if it is not hardwired, then it has to be mounted in a pod. Omnimechs, fighters, and vehicles have pod space or bays. The actual pods are the weapons and equipment themselves and empty pods of just the right size for a particular weapon are not something to be found just conveniently lying around with the rest of the spare parts in large numbers, if at all. Yes, it is faster replacing damaged Omnitech components in the field, but modern armies march on their paperwork and nations build armies on their purse strings. For IS units, that means it is salvaged from the enemy, an elite line unit that gets priority on the latest and greatest, or mercs with money to burn and a solid logistics arm. The almighty C-bill and government budgetary constraints say no to pure Omnitech armies. The Clans have the same problem only their constraint is resources and regular tech is less resource intensive, which is why second line units get a mix of conventional 'Mechs, vehicles, fighters, and even infantry and omnitech if they are issued omnitech at all.

[Escef]

Tyrnea Smurf, on 26 January 2014 - 02:55 PM, said:

Only problem with that scenario is the Clan major shortcoming as designed and shown in the lore is they are extremely limited in manpower.

True. But then again, the clan's biggest problem in this area is that they are too picky. A clan green warrior is the equal of an IS regular. The Jade Falcons apparently tried to experiment with this when they fielded "sibbies" during the Battle of Coventry.

Nathan Foxbane, on 26 January 2014 - 04:44 PM, said:

From a TT standpoint, yes and no. Yes, because most weapons, equipment, and all ammo are pod mountable if needs to be. IS Omnimechs in particular are wired for using both IS and Clan tech pods though it is never stated whether this is feature is found in Clan Omnis, it is a safe assumption... Assuming the Clanners in question are that desperate for gear.

Maybe they are, depends upon the clan. There are several clan tech refits of captured Inner Sphere mechs ("C" versions, as opposed to the total reengineering known as the "IIC"). Before their annihilation, the Smoke Jaguars were sending Inner Sphere mechs back to the homeworlds because the more advanced clan tech machines were reserved for front line forces in the Inner Sphere. They didn't have the resources to outfit their second line forces with top of the line gear, largely because of how badly they treated their labor and merchant castes.

[Tyrnea Smurf]

Escef, on 26 January 2014 - 11:26 PM, said:

Maybe they are, depends upon the clan. There are several clan tech refits of captured Inner Sphere mechs ("C" versions, as opposed to the total reengineering known as the "IIC"). Before their annihilation, the Smoke Jaguars were sending Inner Sphere mechs back to the homeworlds because the more advanced clan tech machines were reserved for front line forces in the Inner Sphere. They didn't have the resources to outfit their second line forces with top of the line gear, largely because of how badly they treated their labor and merchant castes.

Which is a bit odd because I recall specifically when Operation Bulldog sacked Huntress Victor Davion remarked on how they might have a problem finding enough people to drive all the stuff they found away.

I interpreted that to mean that at the very least Clan Smoke Jaguar had a significant depot of by their standards old obsolete Mechs, Tanks, Areofighters ect but the Jags simply ran out of pilots/soldiers to field any of it in their own defense - they would never have even considered arming any of the lower castes for example - a clear demonstration of the ultimate failure of the clan way, the ultimate warrior society ran out of warriors.

[Escef]

Tyrnea Smurf, on 27 January 2014 - 02:29 AM, said:

Which is a bit odd because I recall specifically when Operation Bulldog sacked Huntress Victor Davion remarked on how they might have a problem finding enough people to drive all the stuff they found away.

Canon has a lot of weird idiosyncrasies and such in it. Just as an example, every major world in the Inner Sphere should have the resources to field multiple regiments of mechs, but we don't see that.

[Tyrnea Smurf]

They can, right up until you get to the costs involved in building and maintaining all those machines.

But as a concept I agree, economic, & logistical considerations are really odd in the canon of Battletech.

Then again its a Big Stompy Robot game and not a space age multi-planetary economic simulator...

[Lightdragon]

Thom Frankfurt, on 25 January 2014 - 06:17 PM, said:

Interesting thought. All in all Omnitech is good, as in ease of maintenance and being able to do repairs and customizations in a fraction of the time it'd take to do repairs or custom work. But Onmi's can't mount PPCs/AC's/or GRs in the arms of Onmis... Go figure... That and there is a increase construction cost for Omni's. *shrugs* I think that the omnimech rules would only really come into play if you were doing a campaign or maybe a grinding out scenario where slight repair time between sorties. I hope that helped a bit.

kit fox: right arm mounted gauss rifle on its A variant
adder: dual er ppc in its arms
war hawk: ppc's in arms
executioner: gauss rifle in arm
Nova, one of its variants has erppc in arms
do i need to name inner sphere omnis that do the same thing with the arms? theres plenty of criticals to mount them and they readily support them in their omni points the key is, they arent allowed to have their actuators in the arms to have these weapons, thats why mechs that sport them in the art dont have any arms just guns mounted to them

Edited by Lightdragon, 18 February 2014 - 12:27 PM.

[Elric Tchernovkov]

I'm looking at my Omnimech blueprints, 3 out of 4, (Lost the vulture over the last 25 years) and all 3 have energy weapons mounted in the arms. The Madcat has a LL and ML. Both the Loki, and Thor are mounting PPC's in the arms. There are very few clan mechs that actually mount hand actuators, as Clan pilots felt that brawling was beneath them. They were shootists first and foremost. This is one of the main reasons the IS developed the Berserker. A 100 ton mech with M.A.S.C. and a big ass axe. It was designed to get close, then sprint in with M.A.S.C., weathering enmy fire to melee distance, and hack the living crap out of a clanner.

[Dakkaface]

Gordon Conner, on 25 January 2014 - 04:50 PM, said:

I'll admit this right out of the gate that I am no professional battle tech player. So what is you're opinon on such a subject. Could the IS and Clan's afford to field 100% omnitech armies in a long term sense or will it most likely be to prohibitive to do such?

Could but won't. The IS is well aware of the bonuses of omnitech, but by and large have vast holdings to defend - it's easier and cheaper to order huge bulk lots of standard mechs and mech parts and distribute them to garrisons than having rotating patrols of high power omnis that can't be everywhere at once.

Omnis are reserved for offensive or quick reaction forces where field refits are to be expected and the omnis can double as transports for battle armor. As far as staffing local garrisons and defensive forces, standard mechs are cheaper and allow for much more coverage.

Thom Frankfurt, on 25 January 2014 - 06:17 PM, said:

But Onmi's can't mount PPCs/AC's/or GRs in the arms of Onmis...

Actually they can. Summoner Prime, LBX-10 and ERPPC in the arms. Nova A, an ERPPC in each arm. Warhawk Prime, TWO ERPPCs in each arm. There's more, but that's just the top of my head.

[SaltBeef]

The Omni mech is superior in this aspect that if the supply lines are cut but you still have access to your dropship and a FOB (with techs), you can swap omni pods to energy weapons. Omnimechs never having to load ammo. Endless warfare and endless resistance.

Edited by SaltBeef, 23 February 2014 - 09:05 PM.

[CCC Dober]

It's a question of supply lines I think.

The Clans had to haul their stuff to the Inner Sphere all the way back from the Clan territories, so the more advanced technology would begin to hinder their efforts as it broke down without a ready supply of spare parts. One reason was because they could not salvage it from their opponents, unless they turned against each other. The other one is the difficulty of setting up new factories in a timely fashion to deal with shortages.

The same was partly true for the Inner Sphere when they caught up with Omni technology, but were largely depending on regular shipments of field conversion kits from the FWL. Without those, the salvaged Clan tech was practically useless.

Logistically speaking, Omni tech is good/sustainable when there are short supply lines and the ability to salvage it from opponents. It's more of a situational advantage if you will. What the Clans gambled on, was their ability to steam roll the whole Inner Sphere before they ran out of spare parts. It almost worked, until Comstar stepped up.

[Vanguard319]

In theory, an Omnimech can be reconfigured in the field without sophisticated repair gantries, something that would be impossible to do with a standard battlemech. Say for example you have an extended campaign where ammunition becomes scarce. you could refit all your omnis with energy weapons, standard battlemechs would require proper repair facilities to be refitted, and would take more time to do so, due to not having the "plug and play" advantages of omnipods. Of course, the drawback is that an Omnimech can't swap out engines, armor, or structure, but the ability to quickly and easily change weapon loadouts in the field makes up for those limitations.

Also, Omnis can carry battle armor squads, a very useful ability in terrain where APCs would be limited.

Edited by Vanguard319, 25 March 2014 - 05:56 PM.