311 replies to this topic

[Roland]

IceCase88, on 30 January 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

You think brawling is at 270-300 meters which would be typical of metawarriors like yourselves. You may have 60-70% accuracy with the AC10 but in a brawling situation your percentages drop precipitously (probably around 40-50%).

Man, what are you even talking about?
My accuracy with an AC10 is BETTER up close.. because you don't need to lead the target, and the target is that much bigger. What on earth makes you think that it gets HARDER to hit targets up close? It's easier to shoot things when they are closer.

DONTOR, on 30 January 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

I think I have come to a conclusion, LBXs are sub par weapons, and thats why I love them. When I play any game I go against the grain, using weapons that most people say are garbage and find ways to make them work.

This is certainly your prerogative, but I would offer a different interpretation of why you like LBX.

Infighting is a very different experience in Mechwarrior than long range combat. What's more, it's a very different experience than what you will find in most other games, period.

My unit in MW4 was always more focused on this element of mechwarrior than most of the other successful units. I think the Snow Ravens were the only other unit I recall that ever really had a really high level brawling game. And honestly, when we first ran into them after they had developed it, it was a pretty rude awakening.. just because it was something that no one other than ourselves actually did, and we were totally unprepared for it.

I suspect, and this is only a suspicion, and certainly could be wrong... that you enjoy this TYPE of gameplay. You aren't necessarily invested in the infighting weapons being trash, but rather you enjoy infighting to the extent that you are willing to put up with the trash weapons.

And I suspect that if they improved the LBX to the level it was in MW4, doing 14 damage in a shot, that you would still love using it just as much... But the difference would be that you would no longer be handicapping yourself by playing that way. And you'd see more competent infighters throughout the game, as some of the top tier players started using those weapons and wrecking heads with them, which would really create a pretty significant change in the overall feel of the game (a change for the better).

[DONTOR]

Ya absolutely love 1 hitting spiders with my 2 X gauss 3D, or pinch a leg off and watch em wigle around a bit before you fnish em off lol.

Its a good thought Roland but im not to sure, its not necessarily about my playstyle, its about playing mech loadouts I dont see others using, which tends to mean they arent optimal in most peoples view. I truly hate using AC40,AC20PPCs,AC5sPPCs. Playing what easily gets me kills just isnt fun for me, I have to be constantly challenging myself in order to stay interested. Same reason I dont have more than 200 matches in any one mech, out of my 6000 drops (not including closed beta).

Edited by DONTOR, 30 January 2014 - 02:03 PM.

[Roland]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 January 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

nothing sweeter than landing an ac20 round from my YLW right up the glutes of some lagshielding Pieceofcrap in a Spider or Commando. Watching that insta-disintegration is more enjoyable than killing an Assault Mech from my Mediums (which all too often is too bloody easy, unless they outnumber and focus you.)

I sometimes wish I had a better understanding of what a laggy light experiences against a lot of players.

I drive a light mech quite often, but my ping is around 40, so I really don't benefit from any lag shield.. and as far as I can tell, folks can definitely hit me. Lots of folks can't, but generally because they are bad.... I can tell because when I'm in a game, you'll have a ton of folks spreading shots all over the place, but one good guy will just start wrecking you.

Hitting light mechs isn't easy. It shouldn't be, because otherwise they'll die instantly. But a lot of folks attribute a little too much to lag or bugginess, I think.

Of course, when I'm shooting at lights, since my ping is good, I also don't tend to have much trouble hitting them.. at least, not trouble caused by lag.

Hell, one of my favorite rides is a PPC spider, so I'm often in the position of running around at max speed, while trying to fire a PPC at another light mech who is also running around at max speed.

[Bishop Steiner]

Roland, on 30 January 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:

Man, what are you even talking about?
My accuracy with an AC10 is BETTER up close.. because you don't need to lead the target, and the target is that much bigger. What on earth makes you think that it gets HARDER to hit targets up close? It's easier to shoot things when they are closer.

[size=4]


My unit in MW4 was always more focused on this element of mechwarrior than most of the other successful units. I think the Snow Ravens were the only other unit I recall that ever really had a really high level brawling game. And honestly, when we first ran into them after they had developed it, it was a pretty rude awakening.. just because it was something that no one other than ourselves actually did, and we were totally unprepared for it.

A shame units like that seem to be extinct in MWO. I finally stopped playing 12 mans because I found poptarting about as exciting as watching paint dry. For that brief time around launch when there seemed for a second to be a little weapon balance, was the last time it was fun. I'd rather PUG and roll the dice and play anything other than meta. Of course I have noticed an increasing number of "Pros" migrating from 12 man and team and sync dropping in PUG matches. Gotta wonder is their too little people still playing, or the competition too tough for these lads?

Either way, I think sync dropping is the last resort of spineless epeen strokers, but that's just my 2ct. Moment I find a decent unit that can do something beside Pogostick their mechs, I'll sign up!

Roland, on 30 January 2014 - 01:59 PM, said:

I sometimes wish I had a better understanding of what a laggy light experiences against a lot of players.

I drive a light mech quite often, but my ping is around 40, so I really don't benefit from any lag shield.. and as far as I can tell, folks can definitely hit me. Lots of folks can't, but generally because they are bad.... I can tell because when I'm in a game, you'll have a ton of folks spreading shots all over the place, but one good guy will just start wrecking you.

Hitting light mechs isn't easy. It shouldn't be, because otherwise they'll die instantly. But a lot of folks attribute a little too much to lag or bugginess, I think.

Of course, when I'm shooting at lights, since my ping is good, I also don't tend to have much trouble hitting them.. at least, not trouble caused by lag.

Hell, one of my favorite rides is a PPC spider, so I'm often in the position of running around at max speed, while trying to fire a PPC at another light mech who is also running around at max speed.

Yeah, some bad pings, but still see some light pilots pretty blatantñly "inducing" lag, though I freely admit, i don't fully get all the details? streaming **** or something whilst playing? But when a mech teleports every 3 steps, and it's incidentally always on a light........

[IceCase88]

Roland, on 30 January 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:

Man, what are you even talking about?
My accuracy with an AC10 is BETTER up close.. because you don't need to lead the target, and the target is that much bigger. What on earth makes you think that it gets HARDER to hit targets up close? It's easier to shoot things when they are closer.

I seriously doubt your aiming is better up close (comparing brawling to mid-range fighting). Brawling you are dealing with rapid changes in speed, changes in direction, torso twisting, etc so your accuracy will not be as good. Maybe if you are firing your AC10 standing right in front of a stationary enemy mech, much like you seem to do on the training grounds, it will be better. lol

Edited by IceCase88, 30 January 2014 - 02:26 PM.

[Roland]

IceCase88, on 30 January 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

I seriously doubt your aiming is better up close (comparing brawling to mid-range fighting). Brawling you are dealing with rapid changes in speed, changes in direction, torso twisting, etc so your accuracy will not be as good.

Dude, all of those things happen at range too, only you have to add in the travel time of the weapon to the equation, and you're shooting at a much smaller target.

Shooting things up close is most definitely much easier. The only point at which this really changes is when they get SO close that they're under your view or something.

There are piloting issues if trying to track a light mech angular speed is higher than your mech's turning speed, but this isn't really an aiming issue as much as it is knowing how to pilot.

[DONTOR]

Really its a little bit of both, a good light pilot is going to make you miss upclose by being unpredictable. At range though its much harder to read and guage another mechs movement (if they are fast).

[IceCase88]

We can agree to disagree on whether the LBX is trash or not? Common ground to agree on is it would be nice to get a buff of pellet damage.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

My vote is that in its current state, compared to other weapons in the Autocannon family by weight (i.e. 1 lbx10 vs 2Ac2's) the LB-10X is garbage.

My favorite weapons in Btech are the PPC family and the AC10 family of weapons (HvAC10's, Ultra10's, AP Ammo AC10's, LBX10's...etc.). For the longest time PPCs were bad because of the game's stability and hit detection. LBXs are currently bad because of how PGI implemented its weapon mechanic.


I want nothing more than for PGI to rework its firing mechanic to either more closely reflect MW3/Btech description and implementation of the LB-10X as a flak cannon of sorts, or go the MW4 damage boosted shotgun route. One of the two actions must be taken for it to be brought on par.

Edited by mwhighlander, 30 January 2014 - 05:45 PM.

[Prezimonto]

Roland, on 26 January 2014 - 02:34 PM, said:

The thing is, the LBX isn't good up close either. Even at trivial ranges, it still spreads damage all over the place. Unless you are touching the enemy, it's gonna spread damage.

It would be great if the LBX was good at infighting, but it isn't.

You want to make it a good infight weapon? Increase its damage per pellet to 1.4, which is where the damage was put for prior titles like MW4. THEN it would have a useful niche.

The one place the LBX is better is late in a match when armor is peeled. Up close, if you land most of the pellets on the peeled sections, you're hitting like a Gauss or AC20... for a weapon of slightly less cost in tons than an AC10.

I'd still rather just have an AC20.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lol.... IceCases88s debate and conclusion reminds me of this......

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 30 January 2014 - 07:32 PM.

[forcemac]

I have not seen a lot empirical data presented, but i thought i would throw this is for fun...not sure if it makes or breaks the arguement for either side. This almost all purely from my K2 so its not affected by different chassis and style of play.

Out of 204 matches with my LBX, i average about 5 damage every time i pull my LBX trigger regardless if i hit or not. (37,547 damage per 6812 rounds fired). If you elminate my lbx misses, i do about 6 point damage per hit ( 37,547/ 5183). Now, one must consider that is probablly spread across 1, 2, 3, maybe 4 sections. There is no stat for it, but I'd say i am in the 2-3 section touched most of the time, as i am for left or right torso as my doctrine. So that is effectively 2 damage say per shot per section worst case.

Out of my 517 matches with UAC5, i average about 2.6 damage evertime i pull the trigger (109251/41264) and about 5.2 damage (109251/21076) i land a hit (thats odd, the UAC does more than 5 damage???....in theory it cannot be any higher than 5 maybe there is something more going on here? Is my math off?). It is also all concentrated in one spot all the time.

So just as argued onthis thread, i do more damage everytime i pull the trigger with LBX, but the average is most assuredly spread out....but probablly not to extreme amount naysayers claim. At least in my case.

Further more, with LBX i do about 180 damage per round (37547/204) (lbx gun alone). With UAC i do around 213 damage per game (109251/517) ( UAC 5 alone). Pretty even i suppose...15% difference.

These numbers suggest a Slight edge to the UAC over this sample size, however for some reason the LBX seems more fun to me at this state....probably becuase i used the ultras twice as much leading up to this point in time and i am just enjoying something different at the moment. Curious to see numbers from others with a similar or larger sample sizes.....anything less than 100 matches is probably not statisically significant and even then my numbers dont to even begin to make an argument about the population as a whole...heck you probablly need a combined collation of 30-60k matches to even begin to make the generalizations for that either side are arguing here.


LB 10-X AC 204 6,812 5,183 76.09% 20:11:21 37,547

ULTRA AC/5 517 41,264 21,076 51.08% 1 day 23:34:25 109,251

Edited by forcemac, 31 January 2014 - 02:04 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

forcemac, on 30 January 2014 - 07:34 PM, said:

I have not seen a lot empirical data presented, but i thought i would throw this is for fun...not sure if it makes or breaks the arguement for either side. This almost all purely from my K2 so its not affected by different chassis and style of play.

Out of 204 matches with my LBX, i average about 5 damage every time i pull my LBX trigger regardless if i hit or not. (37,547 damage per 6812 rounds fired). If you elminate my lbx misses, i do about 6 point damage per hit ( 37,547/ 5183). Now, one must consider that is probablly spread across 1, 2, 3, maybe 4 sections. There is no stat for it, but I'd say i am in the 2-3 section touched most of the time, as i am for left or right torso as my doctrine. So that is effectively 2 damage say per shot per section worst case.

Out of my 517 matches with UAC5, i average about 2.6 damage evertime i pull the trigger (109251/41264) and about 5.2 damage (109251/21076) i land a hit (thats odd, the UAC does more than 5 damage???....in theory it cannot be any higher than 5 maybe there is something more going on here? Is my math off?). It is also all concentrated in one spot all the time.

So just as argued onthis thread, i do more damage everytime i pull the trigger with LBX, but the average is most assuredly spread out....but probablly not to extreme amount naysayers claim. At least in my case.

Further more, with LBX i do about 180 damage per round (37547/204) (lbx gun alone). With UAC i do around 213 damage per game (109251/517) ( UAC 5 alone). Pretty even i suppose...15% difference.

These numbers suggest a Slight edge to the UAC over this sample size, however for some reason the LBX seems more fun to me at this state....probably becuase i used the ultras twice as much leading up to this point in time and i am just enjoying something different at the moment. Curious to see numbers from others with a similar or larger sample sizes.....anything less than 100 matches is probably not statisically significant and even then my numbers dont to even begin to make an argument about the population as a whole...heck you probablly need a combined collation of 30-60k matches to even begin to make the generalizations for that either side are arguing here.


LB 10-X AC 204 6,812 5,183 76.09% 20:11:21 37,547

ULTRA AC/5 517 41,264 21,076 51.08% 1 day 23:34:25 109,251

just ran the numbers on mine
LB-x 4.4 damage each time fired (not hits, total use)
AC10 7.98
UAC 2.3 (no surprise, I lay down a lot of spam for cover fire while moving with my uacs, can't say I worry about the stats)
ac20 12.05
Gauss 8.6

[IceCase88]

I guess the damage increase over the maximum damage of the weapons is caused by crits if it is not a flaw in the how the stats are calculated. Damage from hits should also equal the maximum damage for the ballistic used, with the exception of the LBX, so lower damage is a bit odd. Possibly another flaw?

My numbers (Avg damage fired and hits):

AC20
Fired: 12.61 Hit: 19.7

AC2
Fired: 1.06 Hit: 1.97

AC5
Fired: 3.14 Hit: 5.12

AC10
Fired: 6.14 Hit: 9.77

Gauss
Fired: 9.01 Hit: 14.91

LBX
Fired: 5.66 Hit: 7.44

UAC
Fired: 2.5 Hit: 5.09

The LBX is about where I thought it would be. Slightly lower than the AC10 but I do not use as my primary weapon to strip armor. Far from garbage but could use some love. If PGI wants to throw some damage per pellet love then I am all for it.

Wow, Bishop. I see why you don't use the LBX because you really suck at it. I think the only thing you beat me in is the AC10 of the listed ballistics. Might want to stick to lasers only then. lol If I am bad at aim and ballistics it appears you are worse. You probably should not be voicing your opinion on them then. Just sayin'.

Bishop Steiner, on 30 January 2014 - 07:26 PM, said:

Lol.... IceCases88s debate and conclusion reminds me of this......

Actually it is not. You are just one of those douches who thinks they are the smartest guy in the room and is really not. GG Feel free to recover from your self-inflicted wound. I am checking out on this thread. GLHF

Edited by IceCase88, 30 January 2014 - 11:12 PM.

[Deathlike]

One of the things that happens when damage is calculated on your stat page is that it actually includes ammo explosions into the formula, just like the "component damage". So, if you've ever wondered why you average more than 15 pts of damage with Gauss Rifle, ammo explosions are usually the cause.

Edited by Deathlike, 30 January 2014 - 11:13 PM.

[ShadowbaneX]

IceCase88, on 30 January 2014 - 03:51 PM, said:

We can agree to disagree on whether the LBX is trash or not? Common ground to agree on is it would be nice to get a buff of pellet damage.

As stated previously, it doesn't need a damage buff, it needs sabot firing, & the ability to fire standard rounds. With the ability for standard rounds to be fired you can deal with armour, then when the armour is removed, you switch to cluster for damaging internals. The Sabot Firing, the round only spreads out 100 - 200 m from the target so that most of the pellets actually manage to hit your target.

Just upping the pellet damage doesn't change the flaws it currently has...it's just like the change they made a while back about SRMs. Why actually fix the hit registration when you can just up the damage?

[DONTOR]

IceCase88, on 30 January 2014 - 11:10 PM, said:

I guess the damage increase over the maximum damage of the weapons is caused by crits if it is not a flaw in the how the stats are calculated. Damage from hits should also equal the maximum damage for the ballistic used, with the exception of the LBX, so lower damage is a bit odd. Possibly another flaw?

My numbers (Avg damage fired and hits):

AC20
Fired: 12.61 Hit: 19.7

AC2
Fired: 1.06 Hit: 1.97

AC5
Fired: 3.14 Hit: 5.12

AC10
Fired: 6.14 Hit: 9.77

Gauss
Fired: 9.01 Hit: 14.91

LBX
Fired: 5.66 Hit: 7.44

UAC
Fired: 2.5 Hit: 5.09

The LBX is about where I thought it would be. Slightly lower than the AC10 but I do not use as my primary weapon to strip armor. Far from garbage but could use some love. If PGI wants to throw some damage per pellet love then I am all for it.

Wow, Bishop. I see why you don't use the LBX because you really suck at it. I think the only thing you beat me in is the AC10 of the listed ballistics. Might want to stick to lasers only then. lol If I am bad at aim and ballistics it appears you are worse. You probably should not be voicing your opinion on them then. Just sayin'.



Actually it is not. You are just one of those douches who thinks they are the smartest guy in the room and is really not. GG Feel free to recover from your self-inflicted wound. I am checking out on this thread. GLHF

Well atleast you fight for what you believe in. I like Bishop, hes a pretty fair guy (unless were talking LBX lol). But his LBX stats are a bit low. His AC10 stats are great though so I can see why he prefers it.

LBX10 hit:7.61 Miss:5.76
AC20 hit:19.73 Miss:13.6
Gauss hit:14.95 Miss:9.25
AC10 hit:9.89 Miss:6

Edited by DONTOR, 31 January 2014 - 07:54 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

LB 10-X: 5.0 damage per weapon fire (760 total)
AC10: 5.6 damage per weapon fire (2,290 total)
PPC: 5.5 damage per weapon fire (38,150 total)

All in all, I average about 54% of potential damage per weapon fire on all non-missile weapons (ie ACs and Energy, minus the Flamer). My accuracy is about 60% on ballistics/PPCs and 82% on energy. Point is, though, if I'm weighing the potential of the LB 10 and the AC10, I'm already doing +12% better with the AC10 and all of my damage is in a single spot. Until we get slugs on the LB, there just isn't an arguement unless you want to take something for poops and giggles. In that case, be careful that your giggling doesn't cause you to poop.

On another interesting note, I average 0.4, 0.4, 0.4, and 0.2 per pull of the trigger on LRMs (5, 10, 15, and 20 respectively). How freaking sad is that?

Edited by Trauglodyte, 31 January 2014 - 08:02 AM.

[Necromantion]

Trauglodyte, on 29 January 2014 - 07:03 AM, said:

Nobody is mentioning it because, while you have a greater chance of causing crits with the LB, the chances of you putting all 10 pellets into the opened area is much less vs. the AC10 and, even if you do crit, you're adding damage to 1 point pellets. On top of that, you're only putting 0.15 damage per crit pellet, back on the IS. In other words, you're less damage than you think you are.

DONTOR, on 28 January 2014 - 12:34 PM, said:

Its because you cant base a weapons worth on luck which is what Criticals really boil down too. However when you hit a yellow CT atlas with 2 LBX and it dies youll know why. Criticals are hard to notice but when its an obvious crtical and it does insane damage it is hilarious.

Lets say in close range brawls where you can place at least half if not more pellets on one component that you exposed while closing to that range or someone else did id prefer an lb10x over an ac10 at those times to be honest even if i do 1-5 less damage if i can crit ammo or a key weapon or the engine im pretty happy.

[DONTOR]

Ya its cool but you just cant count on it.