437 replies to this topic

[jparbiter]

Some Canon mechs in the battletech universe are entirely built on the concept of boating and Alpha Striking. the Awesome, Jenner, Longbow, and Wolfhound all come to mind.

the easiest way to negate advantage is to enforce weapon charging like in MW 4 and heat so that such a tactic is strict, and make it so that rather then pinpoint accuracy the weapon will hit "inside the reticule"

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Haeso, on 29 November 2011 - 11:44 AM, said:

If you're poptarting, they're going to core you, every time you pop you must expose your CT, if they're lining up on you before you crest the ridge using radar, or simply watching the ridge, they've got the advantage on you in timing, unless you're playing Third Person, in which case I laugh at you and your magical floating eye. Then yes the poptart has the advantage in a sniping contest, but again I'll say if both sides are sniping, one team needs to man up and get close as a group and eat them for breakfast. Poptart DPS is awful, their one advantage is the popping. Get in their face.

And this is a prime example if you going to pop to their tune, to allow them to know where you are popping and when (radar on ***?) then yes, you are doing it wrong, and you deserve to get slapped in the CT.

[Haeso]

DV^McKenna, on 29 November 2011 - 11:19 AM, said:

Yes and no, if your exposing yourself long enough that they can shoot back, your doing it wrong, very wrong, sniping is very much about shooting the first shot and getting back into cover before they return fire.

If they're not hitting you before you can land a hit on them they're doing it wrong, you mean. Also again, rushed poptart = low DPS dead mech.

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If you actually read my post i did not name any particular incarnation of MW, simple fact a good 70/80% of this games player base will come from people who have or are playing previous Mechwarrior games, what other corner of the gaming market even knows about this ?? next to none.

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Everyone making claims like these...

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claims like these...

It was about you using numbers you've literally pulled from your rear, unless you've got some citations I'm not accepting anything as "simple fact".

Kagemusha, on 29 November 2011 - 11:47 AM, said:

Only if you are a poor player, and you don't know how to move around the map while popping on them, and pushing your opponent into the open.

You can't "Move around the map while popping on them" against faster mechs and especially not against an actual team. I don't really care about how some random pubs play. I'm talking about moderately organized groups that know how to play together, or at the very least can employ general tactics.

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Forced first person no-respawn matches had a very different style of play from third person respawn games. But one of the reasons that popping worked, was because with concentrated fire, and proper movement, you could destroy your opponent before he/she could get in close to you.

If by concentrated fire you mean a group of players hitting the lone dipstick charging by himself, yes very effective. But the fact of the matter is, 8v8 you weren't going to win if they rushed you as a team, as soon as you've got nothing to pop behind you're vastly outgunned by builds that focused on DPS rather than burst, and if they're rushing as a team, the guys getting hit turn torsos away from the poptarts so their arms are shields, it takes a lot more to knock out two legs or a black + enough to destroy it leg than CT. Shooting a leg as a poptart also exposes more of you and for a longer time if using vertical cover.

Edited by Haeso, 29 November 2011 - 11:56 AM.

[Kudzu]

DV^McKenna, on 29 November 2011 - 11:33 AM, said:

A well targeted Ad campaign that will cost money, for a free too play game that will take money out of what little it already has?
I think you might want to rethink reality. The only exposure this game will get, is in reviews and previews, and if your not already interested in mech your not going to pay it any more attention when the next itteration of Award Winning multi year release game is reviewed on page 56.

So you think that they don't already have part of the development investment set aside for advertising? Do you know anything about business at all?

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Thats kind of like me saying unless you can supply facts that a brawling team in FFP,NR team based (league) would beat a Sniping team at least 8/10 times im not taking your word for it....ok i slightly lie, i wont believe you because my time in the last 10 years of playing MW4 (which seems to be the game we're talking over) tells me the complete opposite.

If they don't know where you are, or when your popping up that is not them doing it wrong, that is you doing it right.
And also for the love of good, shooting legs as a pop tart? wow.

Edited by DV^McKenna, 29 November 2011 - 12:00 PM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Kudzu, on 29 November 2011 - 11:53 AM, said:

So you think that they don't already have part of the development investment set aside for advertising? Do you know anything about business at all?

I know plenty about F2P games, that suggest this one is no different, the "ad" campaign is unlikely to be spectacular, and certainly not enough to draw in the amount of players your alluding too.

[Kagemusha]

Haeso, I'm willing to bet that I have far more experience (and success) than you do playing organized MW4, particularly of the No-Respawn style. What name did you play as in MW4, and with what team? Right now it appears like you are retro-theory crafting.

In my experience, we won the vast majority of the fights where we took ranged weapons against brawling teams. So if you played 8v8, I'm assuming NBT, then I'm curious who you were, because I don't know a single team that had success just 'rushing' their opponent. The closest was {HRR} (or Clan Burrock or GDL), but they even do far more than just rushing with infighters. NBT Jade Falcon had some success too, early on, but they often took a mix of range and close.


p.s. 100kph+ 4erll stormcrow.. hard for a brawler to run it down.

Edited by Kagemusha, 29 November 2011 - 12:07 PM.

[Dlardrageth]

DV^McKenna, on 29 November 2011 - 11:24 AM, said:

And what other corner of the gaming world will know about this game, let alone even care to produce an influx or new players that will out number the people involved with this universe for the last 20,30 years?

"Corner of the gaming world"?
Excuse me, ever heard of this game called... what was it again... oh, yes, WoW. Can you remember how they started out? It's not like they had some known hardcore community waiting in the shadows just to jump out at game launch. And certainly not one numbering millions.

Also I would debate that everyone being currently interested or who used to be interested in BT will flock to this game. A large part, sure. But will those be numbers high enough to overshadow the generally gaming-interested population? Seriously doubt that.

And yes, I don't expect PGI to launch TV spots and what not right away, like Blizzard does these days. But guess what, that is not the way they initially began either. Some carefully targeted online advertising goes long ways compared to the more classical means these days. Thus I don't really fear PGI will be unable to reach a way broader poulation than just the BT/MW fans of different flavours.

Edited by Dlardrageth, 29 November 2011 - 12:12 PM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Dlardrageth, on 29 November 2011 - 12:11 PM, said:

"Corner of the gaming world"?
Excuse me, ever heard of this game called... what was it again... oh, yes, WoW. Can you remember how they started out? It's not like they had some known hardcore community waiting in the shadows just to jump out at game launch. And certainly not one numbering millions.

Also I would debate that everyone being currently interested or who used to be interested in BT will flock to this game. A large part, sure. But will those be numbers high enough to overshadow the generally gaming-interested population? Seriously doubt that.

And yes, I don't expect PGI to launch TV spots and what not right away, like Blizzard does these days. But guess what, that is not the way they initially began either. Some carefully targeted online advertising goes long ways compared to the more classical means these days. Thus I don't really fear PGI will be unable to reach a way broader poulation than just the BT/MW fans of different flavours.

I assume you skipped over Diablo, and Warcraft Starcraft in general in that post that established a massive core gaming base for Blizzard.

Edited by DV^McKenna, 29 November 2011 - 12:19 PM.

[Haeso]

Kagemusha, on 29 November 2011 - 11:45 AM, said:

Haeso, the skill ceiling for MW4 was not low at all. There were plenty of skill factors that many people missed, because they never got to the highest levels, or weren't consistently playing against the best. As a person who played with and against the best, I can faithfully say that most of these players continued to improve their game over the years. We got quicker, smarter, learned better configs and tactics, and became more adapt at a wider range of weapons and mechs.

How well you could aim and how quickly you could do it, plus whether or not you were smart enough to turn as their weapons came off cooldown/they fell for it or not, or had weapons capable of knocking them around to do so just before they fired. Those are the only skill factors beyond very simple things like heat and such that any monkey can do. Teamwork as well, of course.

But again, comparing the level of competition in MW4 to CS or Quake or SC is just... ugh. I don't even know where to go from here, they're worlds apart. If the level of competition was anything like those games, the game would have thrived solely on that competition alone. But it didn't, the game's playerbase is a shadow of what it would be. I only half seriously mentioned it earlier, but when was the last time, if ever, there was a cash prize tournament outside of local stuff?

I'm not trying to say you couldn't have enjoyed it or been competitive about it, but there's no way it was in league with the game's it's being compared to here.

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While a game like SC2 or CS has a high skill ceiling as well, those games tend to be in just a slightly faster twitch. Mech involved more factors, and thus this obscured some of what made the best players the best. I can count very few players that I consider were equals at the highest levels. Further, there were some teams that were very good teams, but they didn't have a single player that I would consider to have been at the highest level. This was another factor that made MW4 so interesting, challenging, and fun.

SC/SC2 are far more dominated by thought rather than dexterity and hand-eye coordination. There's a certain minimum of speed required in SC/SC2, but most good players are well beyond it, and the difference between players is thought. Conversely, CS is almost entirely dexterity, hand-eye and speed. Teamwork was part of it, of course, but mostly individual skill.

Any decent team based game can have successful teams without aces. That's not really saying much by itself.

[Halfinax]

First off this personal measuring contest isn't moving the discussion forward, and simply makes you seem as if you have some need for attention. Second as I said extreme customization could be handled effectively with BV. The only other reason boating would be a problem is if they implement a PPA system that most games employed from the mid 1990's and early 2000's. Games have moved forward from that most shooters employ a randomizer within the reticule to create more balanced and less twitch based game play. MW4 (which so many want to use as the example) was made at a time when we did not have Internet speeds as we do today, and I am sure most of us can agree we need to move forward with the times in order to keep the series that our passionate discussions clearly indicate we care so much about. The developer's have already pointed out that they don't want to remake previous games, and I for one take that to mean that they saw flaws in them that would hamper a purely MP based reboot of the series. There will be changes, and not all of us will like the changes whether they are changes to core mechanics from the TT games or our wants from the previous MW series of video games. In the end we will likely see some amalgam of the two, with the developer's own ideas to create a better balanced game for real time MP game than any of its predecessors, were for various reasons, uanble achieve.

Edited: for grammar

Edited by Halfinax, 29 November 2011 - 12:29 PM.

[Dlardrageth]

DV^McKenna, on 29 November 2011 - 12:13 PM, said:

I assume you skipped over Diablo, and Warcraft Starcraft in general in that post that established a massive core gaming base for Blizzard.

Okay, so now you are saying that they are tied to the gaming company instead of to the gaming concept? Okay... if you really expect people to just flock to a game because they are fans of the parent company... man, they must really love EA judging by this...

[ManDaisy]

In Table top there is a heat table, as your heat increases the penalties get worse, things included on heat penalities are ammo explosion, movement reduction, weapons accuracy decrease, and shutdown and explosion. I also think pilot cooking should be there, So far no mechwarrior game has incorporated this table except for shutting down. MW3 was the best but I remember your ammo could no explode from heat and I dont remember my engine ever blowing up from heat either.

alphastrike = more heat = more danger. You should be able to explode/ die even without any damage if you overheat.

Edited by ManDaisy, 29 November 2011 - 12:21 PM.

[Kagemusha]

I don't know if a mech game will ever be a good e-sport. I don't think that skill ceiling has anything to do with it.

Edited by Kagemusha, 29 November 2011 - 12:25 PM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Dlardrageth, on 29 November 2011 - 12:18 PM, said:

Okay, so now you are saying that they are tied to the gaming company instead of to the gaming concept? Okay... if you really expect people to just flock to a game because they are fans of the parent company... man, they must really love EA judging by this...

lol, no People brought into World of Warcraft because they were fans of Blizzard as a company, for the quality of games they produced, the Lore form Warcraft itself lended well to making into an MMO there was plenty of it.
Diablo a successful creation from Blizzard started the process all those years ago. World of Warcraft was the next logical but bold step.
Blizzard had a massive fanbase unlike many other gaming companies that has tailored its success.

How many games do impactful TV ads? and i dont mean the ones put out by game store retailers, i mean actual ads from the studios.

[Haeso]

Kagemusha, on 29 November 2011 - 11:59 AM, said:

Haeso, I'm willing to bet that I have far more experience (and success) than you do playing organized MW4, particularly of the No-Respawn style. What name did you play as in MW4, and with what team? Right now it appears like you are retro-theory crafting.

It was around a decade ago, and I only played for a few months. I only started using a fixed moniker about 6-7 years ago, so I've no idea. Whether or not you have more experience, especially in the post mek-tek era, doesn't really concern me. I saw the limitations of the game, and moved on. I'm sure the game evolved over time.

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In my experience, we won the vast majority of the fights where we took ranged weapons against brawling teams. So if you played 8v8, I'm assuming NBT, then I'm curious who you were, because I don't know a single team that had success just 'rushing' their opponent. The closest was {HRR} (or Clan Burrock or GDL), but they even do far more than just rushing with infighters. NBT Jade Falcon had some success too, early on, but they often took a mix of range and close.

When I say rush I do not mean necessarily to melee range, moreso to put them in a position where they have little to no terrain between you and them, most of the open maps this was very easy on. Though it depended on the map of course. Some as I recall definitely favored poptarts. I focused on weapons that were exceptional DPS rather than burst, not necessarily short range. Which is why I didn't say brawling, but I see where that might be confused. I would have to reinstall the game to jog my memory for more specifics.

I would try to close range, absolutely, but the primary goal was keeping them in LoS as much as possible, close range just happened to be the best way to ensure that, not the only way.

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p.s. 100kph+ 4erll stormcrow.. hard for a brawler to run it down.

Which is why if I had a brawler, I'd also have someone with high DPS/low burst to shoot you while I kept you moving. But I was usually the guy in the back shooting while a brawler chased people around. If we had a brawler at all.

Kagemusha, on 29 November 2011 - 12:20 PM, said:

I don't know if a mech game will ever be a good e-sport. I don't think that skill ceiling has anything to do with it.

Money changing hands doesn't mean it's a spectator sport, look at professional gambling, until recently I don't think anyone really watched that stuff. There are plenty of pay to enter tournaments for games funded entirely by entry rather than advertisements/spectators.

Edited by Haeso, 29 November 2011 - 12:30 PM.

[Tyrant]

Haeso, on 29 November 2011 - 11:44 AM, said:

Popping doesn't work when you get rushed and your low DPS high burst weapons are worthless. In a straight up fight Gauss/PCC/ERLL are all awful.

Really? I happen to know a few monsters that would disagree with you. Your comment shows that you actually know very little about MW4 high end game play. Please refrain from making comments about MW4 play-styles or balance.

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They've already stated they're going for a simulator not a MechAssault, numerous times even. I'll give their integrity slightly more credit than you, as a developer I know the merits of developing the game you want over the game that a market analyst tells you will probably sell better. I believe they're here to make a living and make the game they want, not sell out and make a game they feel ashamed to have their name on in exchange for the promise of more money when that promise of more money doesn't even take into account oversaturation and is a best case scenario. Simulators don't tend to make tons of money, they're also much less likely to fail spectacularly because there's little market saturation.

People talk about sales figures and money without understand hardly anything that goes on in this industry.

So, your a developer, I am impressed you have said so many prefer to keep silent, I do respect what you do, I know its not easy especially with people like me around. No troll. If you can tell me what products you have worked on so we can discuss this issue around something more concrete rather than vaporware that MWO currently is.

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If you're poptarting, they're going to core you, every time you pop you must expose your CT, if they're lining up on you before you crest the ridge using radar, or simply watching the ridge, they've got the advantage on you in timing, unless you're playing Third Person, in which case I laugh at you and your magical floating eye. Then yes the poptart has the advantage in a sniping contest, but again I'll say if both sides are sniping, one team needs to man up and get close as a group and eat them for breakfast. Poptart DPS is awful, their one advantage is the popping. Get in their face.

You are assuming 50/50 skill, perfect positioning on both sides with no external factors. I am truly sad I did not have the opportunity to play with you in NBT, I believe you would have experienced MW4 at its very best.

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You would have to guess, yes. Me I'd guess based on the vastly more successful LoL monetization than WoT, but that's just me. Not to mention the repeated claims of "Not pay to win" and frequent reassurances of being Mechwarrior/Battletech fans as well. If you've read the story for how they got the rights for the game, I'd say they're pretty diehard about it, and they're making the game they want.

The reason why LoL is not a valid example of monetization is because they have had a constant community since DotA that community is also significantly larger than anything MW related or WoT as such its a breakout project and cannot be used to make direct comparisons to or compared against as the will never be realistic.

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Every weapon has it's own CoF, Short range weapons would have a larger CoF as their max range is shorter, effective accuracy at max range is the same*. Accuracy increases gradually as distance decreases.

*Generally speaking. Different weapons may/may not have different base accuracies. Ex; a laser is probably more accurate than an autocannon if both are built for the same range, going by MW4 say a UAC5/ERLL.

I do see where you are going with this however:
no control / randomization is not fun no matter your reasoning

Its hard to say much more than that without any sort of numbers where you can directly compare ERLL to LBX and say that ERLL have to be aimed for 2s but their maximum deviation is 0.2m per 100m to a max of 800m

And as your experience of high end MW4 game play is so limited I will go ahead and say there will be players / teams that will alpha from range, either from an individual or combined alpha to a point of where you will have to continue nerfing long-range weapons to compensate for player ability / coordination.

Edited by Tyrant, 29 November 2011 - 12:38 PM.

[Kudzu]

DV^McKenna, on 29 November 2011 - 11:57 AM, said:

I know plenty about F2P games, that suggest this one is no different, the "ad" campaign is unlikely to be spectacular, and certainly not enough to draw in the amount of players your alluding too.

Once we actually see some game footage a post to http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/ with it's 895,418 readers will certainly help... oh, and it's free.

[Dlardrageth]

DV^McKenna, on 29 November 2011 - 12:23 PM, said:

[...]
How many games do impactful TV ads? and i dont mean the ones put out by game store retailers, i mean actual ads from the studios.

Rather few, I reckon. And personally I wouldn't bother with it early on. You'll likely get more attention for your buck spent on PR by a combined YouTube/Gaming Magazines/Gaming Conventions/Facebook campaign anyway. Not like the typical person watching TV for hours and catching your ad is likely the same playing online for hours and being your (paying) customer. As a day has only so many hours, heh.

[Halfinax]

Just drop this so called "High end MW4 gameplay" you are talking about a game that was balanced for a SP experience with a MP feature tacked on. MWO is going to be a purely MP game. MW4 had serious balance issues for MP that caused the player base to drop rapidly. There was no system of checks and balances to ensure the game was balanced for a MP experience. It devolved rapidly into a situation where if you didn't use one of the handful of winning 'Mech designs you didn't stand a chance. That's not skill based that's min/max exploitation of a flawed system. I'm sure there is some level of skill once you know the best builds, and employ the ridiculous tactics that those builds favored, but to say any MP game should be balanced as that seriously outdated system is absurd.

I didn't play MW4 much in MP for those very reasons. It wasn't fun, and I understood how to make a min/maxed 'Mech. It just boiled down to the first guy to see the other guy wins with little deviation within that. This game will not be MW4, and as passionate as you seem to be about it Tyrant you're going to have to face that. PPA is a outmoded form of aiming in MP games. It doesn't make any sense even with a computer assisting your aim. For all intents and purposes a PPA system in a game that has multiple weapons on a single platform means that the weapons magical first all send their munitions/beams to the central reticule, and then fire out ward from there.