437 replies to this topic

[MaddMaxx]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 02 December 2011 - 08:53 AM, said:

The whole point is to customise the mech (often with ER LL) and extra double heatsinks so that you can core any mech CT with one salvo at max range. This is the basis (as far as I can see) behind the "I want to hit where I aim" and "we must have full customisation Mechlab" proponents.

Then those proponents should have to carry TC's to allow such accuracy at those extreme ranges. ERLL each weigh 4T so require 1T and a Crit slot of TC per laser mounted. Quid pro quo. Lack of Heat Sinks should be a death sentence for the unwary Alpha striker

Quote

"The Targeting Computer can be used to help aim all direct fire weapons, including most energy and ballistic weapons. Targeting Computers weigh one ton and occupy one critical slot for every five tons of equipment they control (rounded up), while a comparable Inner Sphere version weighs one ton and occupies one critical slot for every four tons it controls (also rounded up)."

Edited by MaddMaxx, 02 December 2011 - 10:37 AM.

[UncleKulikov]

I don't want there to be hard restrictions on player inputs (you can alpha strike as often as your weapons could normally fire) but there should be consequences relative to all the weapons you fire.

For example, a mech with only machine guns should, and could alpha strike all the time until it runs out of ammo for a constant spray of short ranged damage.

But there needs to be some mechanical way to make it difficult for an Awesome to land 30 points of PPC damage per strike reliably, whether it be startup, cascading weapon firing, or multiplied heat.

Edited by UncleKulikov, 02 December 2011 - 10:50 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

UncleKulikov, on 02 December 2011 - 10:49 AM, said:

I don't want there to be hard restrictions on player inputs (you can alpha strike as often as your weapons could normally fire) but there should be consequences relative to all the weapons you fire.

For example, a mech with only machine guns should, and could alpha strike all the time until it runs out of ammo for a constant spray of short ranged damage.

But there needs to be some mechanical way to make it difficult for an Awesome to land 30 points of PPC damage per strike reliably, whether it be startup, cascading weapon firing, or multiplied heat.

And therein lies the true rub. MW2 had what some consider a decent Heat model. Others hated it because it was restrictive to a run and gun play style. Guess what, subsequent MW games toned down or pretty much nullified that aspect. Same with the amount of learning curve required it took to Pilot a Mech. The term normally used is dumb'd down.

So I guess the Dev have to decide where are they on those matters. What will the Curve be, how will Heat actually effect a Mech that is not Heat optimal by player design. Can Heat be by passed with smoke and mirror min maxing, or do we go just back to what it was 10 years ago with new pretty skins?

Players WILL abuse and even outright cheat any rule set that is not set in stone, but setting things in stone is not flexible and inflexible is...

Quite a Catch-22 problem they face eh, especially when they want "everyone" who tries it to at least have a shot at liking it. Daunting just doesn't cut it as a description of their dilemma.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 02 December 2011 - 11:20 AM.

[Edward_Grimm]

If any of you have played World of Tanks then you'll be familar with the "fire zone" that they have implemented. It's a circle that changes in size based on a number of different factors. Speed, turning the tank or the turret, changing elevation of the barrel all affect the size of the "fire zone." Once coming to a stop and letting everything stabalize the circle shrinks down smaller and smaller to a minimum size dictated by the pilots skill.

If any of you have played World of Tanks then you'll be familiar with the "targeting circle" that they have implemented. It's a circle that changes in size based on a number of different factors: movement speed, turning the tank or the turret, changing elevation of the barrel. All of these affect the size of the "fire zone." Once coming to a stop and letting everything stabilize the circle shrinks down smaller and smaller to a minimum size dictated by the pilot’s skill. The better the skill, the faster and smaller the targeting circle gets.

At medium ranges and with good skill levels the circle fits nicely into the silhouette of the target. At long ranges or while moving, the target easily fits into the circle, sometimes with plenty of space around the edges. This means that it’s possible to be aiming “directly at” the target but still misses due to environmental factors.

I’ve always believed that any game that implements pin-point aiming is asking for problems with players trying to gain a leg up in one way or another. By using a dynamic targeting circle of this type it decreases the overpowering aspect of boats and eliminates a variety of problems in the game from scripts/hacks/etc.

Give WoT a try (it’s free) and see what I’m talking about. It makes sense with the way it’s implemented and works really well. There’s no reason why it couldn’t work here.

[Black Sunder]

Edward_Grimm, on 02 December 2011 - 02:20 PM, said:

If any of you have played World of Tanks then you'll be familar with the "fire zone" that they have implemented. It's a circle that changes in size based on a number of different factors. Speed, turning the tank or the turret, changing elevation of the barrel all affect the size of the "fire zone." Once coming to a stop and letting everything stabalize the circle shrinks down smaller and smaller to a minimum size dictated by the pilots skill.

If any of you have played World of Tanks then you'll be familiar with the "targeting circle" that they have implemented. It's a circle that changes in size based on a number of different factors: movement speed, turning the tank or the turret, changing elevation of the barrel. All of these affect the size of the "fire zone." Once coming to a stop and letting everything stabilize the circle shrinks down smaller and smaller to a minimum size dictated by the pilot’s skill. The better the skill, the faster and smaller the targeting circle gets.

At medium ranges and with good skill levels the circle fits nicely into the silhouette of the target. At long ranges or while moving, the target easily fits into the circle, sometimes with plenty of space around the edges. This means that it’s possible to be aiming “directly at” the target but still misses due to environmental factors.

I’ve always believed that any game that implements pin-point aiming is asking for problems with players trying to gain a leg up in one way or another. By using a dynamic targeting circle of this type it decreases the overpowering aspect of boats and eliminates a variety of problems in the game from scripts/hacks/etc.

Give WoT a try (it’s free) and see what I’m talking about. It makes sense with the way it’s implemented and works really well. There’s no reason why it couldn’t work here.

I really hope you're not still playing WoT. That game has a number of problems including phantom shots and shots that fall outside the target reticule even though its fully shrunk down. Lets not even talk about the poor and very shotty spotting/camo system.

[ArchSight]

Dang! this thread has quickly turned into a ad for another game. No more mentioning of game names that are not mechwarrior online please. Just describe how it works; not send us to this game for an example kind of stuff.

The thread is about making players conform there mech combat tactics and configs to what has been described in books,TT, to get rid of boating, and the abuse of alpha striking. I don't agree with taking away these options from the players of the game but it should be balanced to not be the win all kind of tactic or mech config.

Customization

I'm partially agreeing with having only one weapon for a weapon slot of a mech instead of many smaller weapons added to a weapon slot. It's a good idea to nerf having many kinds of smaller weapons for the sake of the mech design. Having three Med lasers shooting out of one barrel is weird. There are potential problems to this though like making a under powered mech, or under tonnage mech. If there's some kind of bonus to other stats of your mech while under tonnage it would be good. Maybe even an option of going over tonnage and getting debuff to your mechs stats. Stats that could be altered would be speed, manuavability, Chance of being knocked down, torso twist speed, turn rate, etc. This is only good for preventing a high amount of small weapons though.

Weapon Hazards

Adding recoil to amunition weapons will be great for simulation. Having a powerful weapon alter your mechs torso position from being fired will certainly effect shooting all of them at ones. The risk of knocking your own mech down to the ground is potentially hazardouse to armor and leave you open to be fired upon before you get up. That would keep me from firing off 4 lbx 20's or just two at a time.

The cone of fire would be good for balancing out high fire rate boats or potentinal amunition jams.

We already have heat for laser boats. Shooting too many or too powerful of a laser alpha strike should trigger a shut down from over heating to quickly.

I pretty much think any two forms of a powerful weapon fired together should cause a overheat, shut down, High recoil, gyro overload, or knock down. But with it like this it can only be evaded by firing one powerful heat weapon with another powerful amunition weapon. Hopefully these two weapons are not so much different from each other when fired. Maybe the weapons category that they are placed in can be alterd to be in both. Like the Gauss rifle, it's real world counterpart does use energy to propel the mass of it's shell forward. So the big ballistic weapons can also give high heat to your mech. So when fired with a another powerful weapon like a PPC it would trigger a overheat or shut down.

With stuff like this implemented, pushing our mechs too far would result in a shut down and knock down party.

Theres another way of making boats less useful for the battlefeild. It's the situation a mech is put in. The game type and map comes into play for giving them an advantage but if the game type and map can change consistantly what would happen to them? MWO can have maps that can turn from cold to hot in an instance with it's destructive objects. You could turn an area into a hot zone by igniting a fuel dump or maybe burning the forest, city, down. The sun going up can be too hot for energy mechs but when it's down the energy mech is fine. In some area's of the map there could be loose ground that could increase the chance of a mech knock down. Maybe even shooting a bridge underneath somebody or like shooting the building underneath the jenner in the trailer.

The gametype can have many kinds of objectives to finish before you can win. These objectives can have different positions on the map. Each position could have a different advantage to it. One can be in a wide open feild , one can be in a city, and one can be in a volacano. A mech that is only good for one kind of situation is not going to be good for helping out with the other objectives in the game type if it's set up like this. A mech that is made for all of those situations will be better.

Edited by ArchSight, 02 December 2011 - 09:50 PM.

[zorgoth]

just put in a long term damage system.
maybe have your favourite 'ol laser boat eventually get some quirks here and there. (as a result of excess heat, drain on the reactor, etc.)
an ac boat suffering from the stress of the recoil. (especially if it was designed for 1 AC but holds several. the clint page addresses a similar problem (sarna wiki)
an mg boat? if they're crazy enough, i've got no problem.
as i see it, as long as its like mechwarrior 3, and not 4, we should be ok.

i like huntrava's idea alot too.

i should mention i didn't get any of the last few pages worth, so if someone covered this idea, great. never hurts to have it seen twice though, right?

[Solis Obscuri]

This survey would be much better with multi-choice checkboxes.

Anyway, my $0.02 is that it's all ok so long as heat management is addressed more seriously, there's no coolant flush, and weapons convergence delays limit the ability to fire grouped weapons with precise accuracy for concentrated damage.

[MajorLeeHung]

How about you limit it to once per battle AND make it have a drawback like permanently reduced accuracy for the rest of the match. It seems to be the best solution.

Here are some thing that could happen via AS being used:

1. Targeting computer glitches, increasing lock-on times and reload speeds
2. You blow out your heat sinks, SEVERELY increasing heat build up and thus limiting ROF for all weapons
3. Some weapons just flat out go off line (no repair cost after battle) because of the massive energy and heat. Think of it as maybe there hit with something similar to an EMP
4. Reactor issues. Some mechs have hundreds of years old reactors and even tho in good condition they shouldnt be powering an alpha strike. when you think about it AS is basically just a big arse power surge.
5. Feedback. Your wearing a nero helmet linked directly to your mech and you just over loaded every system you have INCLUDING your brain. could maybe blur the players view for 4 or 5 minutes. Sorry your not gonna take that kind of feedback hit and be clear headed in 30 seconds.

I know there's more you can do but these are just off the top of my head. Dont remove AS or limit how many weapon can be fired, just let it be a one shot deal and there WILL be consequences. Severe enuf that your gonna think about it before you do it. At least a team mind mechwarrior will.

[GD26]

@MagnusEffect


MWO won’t be anything like Mektek’s NHUA servers you now.

So what’s the problem? If your mech allows you to fit a certain number of Heat Sinks which will support a certain number of successive Alpha Strikes before shutting down, so be it. I imagine that those heat sinks will still take up a number of slots which otherwise could be used for weaponry or other important systems. So if a pilot will choose to sacrifice weaponry for extra heat sinks in order to “boat” his Mech for Alpha Strikes, that’ll be his/hers problem.

As far as I’m concerned I say let them boat their Mechs as much as they want. When they’ll overheat and shut-down, they’ll be easy pickings.

AFAIK, with missile boats is a little different though as the missiles doesn’t generate as much heat as energy/beam weapons or even some of other ballistic weapons like ACs or Gauss Rifles. So a Catapult for instance or a Longbow will always use Alpha Strikes because that’s pretty much all the weaponry you can fit on them: missiles whose firing doesn’t generate too much heat.

[Strum Wealh]

Another possible option for the poll:

Triggering an alpha-strike or group-fire does not fire all weapons simultaneously; there is a short (on the order of ~0.25 seconds) delay between the firing of one weapon and the firing of the next.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, this is part of how Chromehounds addressed the issue - one could put several weapons into a firing group, but triggering a group-firing would not fire all weapons in the group at exactly the same moment.
Instead, the firing system would by quickly cycle through each weapon in the group (essentially a rapid chain-fire), where the recoil from the previous weapon, combined with the movement of the target and one's own 'Mech, would make it much more difficult for all of the weapons to strike exactly the same point.

Employing a similar system for both normal group-fire and alpha-strikes (making the latter essentially a rapid cross-group chain-fire) would see even large-number laser-boats like the Clan-built Nova and Supernova and PPC-boats like the ANH-1E Annihilator and the Awesome affected - an alpha-strike with the Nova's 12 ER Medium Lasers would take three full seconds to fire all of the weapons, while an alpha-strike with the Supernova's six ER Large Lasers would take 1.50 seconds to fire all of the weapons, an alpha-strike with the Annihilator's four PPCs would take one full second to fire all of the weapons, and an alpha-strike with the Awesome's three PPCs would take 0.75 seconds to fire all of the weapons.
The same would be true of Gauss-boats, AC-boats, MG-boats, and missile-boats as well.

Additionally a 'Mech that's already running warm would still be subject to other effects. For example, a Supernova that triggers an alpha-strike while already running warm risks shutting down before completing said alpha-strike (due to the high heat-generation of the ER Large Lasers).

It even handily fits into the lore, as it could explain how one can trigger multiple laser weapons and strike the target with some of said lasers and miss with the others.

Your thoughts?

[Thomas Hogarth]

Strum Wealh, on 01 March 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

Another possible option for the poll:

Triggering an alpha-strike or group-fire does not fire all weapons simultaneously; there is a short (on the order of ~0.25 seconds) delay between the firing of one weapon and the firing of the next.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, this is part of how Chromehounds addressed the issue - one could put several weapons into a firing group, but triggering a group-firing would not fire all weapons in the group at exactly the same moment.
Instead, the firing system would by quickly cycle through each weapon in the group (essentially a rapid chain-fire), where the recoil from the previous weapon, combined with the movement of the target and one's own 'Mech, would make it much more difficult for all of the weapons to strike exactly the same point.

Employing a similar system for both normal group-fire and alpha-strikes (making the latter essentially a rapid cross-group chain-fire) would see even large-number laser-boats like the Clan-built Nova and Supernova and PPC-boats like the ANH-1E Annihilator and the Awesome affected - an alpha-strike with the Nova's 12 ER Medium Lasers would take three full seconds to fire all of the weapons, while an alpha-strike with the Supernova's six ER Large Lasers would take 1.50 seconds to fire all of the weapons, an alpha-strike with the Annihilator's four PPCs would take one full second to fire all of the weapons, and an alpha-strike with the Awesome's three PPCs would take 0.75 seconds to fire all of the weapons.
The same would be true of Gauss-boats, AC-boats, MG-boats, and missile-boats as well.

Additionally a 'Mech that's already running warm would still be subject to other effects. For example, a Supernova that triggers an alpha-strike while already running warm risks shutting down before completing said alpha-strike (due to the high heat-generation of the ER Large Lasers).

It even handily fits into the lore, as it could explain how one can trigger multiple laser weapons and strike the target with some of said lasers and miss with the others.

Your thoughts?

I love it. Pretty much identical to what I suggested much earlier, except I added a randomization factor.

[Lycan]

The Sniper, on 15 November 2011 - 04:26 PM, said:

Yeah, the BT universe I came from there was no coolant or manual override ... completely forgot about that aspect, thanks for the reminder

Did you come from Table Top? 'Cause up till Heat Level 30 (or 50 if you used the expanded Heat Table) you could make a Piloting skill roll to overcome the automatic shut down. Granted, the higher the heat level, the harder the roll was.

And as time progressed the game added in not only Coolant Trucks (never played with those as it just made the 'Mech linked to it a big juicy sitting target) and one shot coolant-pods that you could add to your mech.

The problem of the Alpha Strike seems to have developed due to the facts that the Mechwarrior PC games of old all had pin-point accuracy and a heat scale that really didn't do much to detour the use of Alpha Strikes.

If the game correctly utilizes the Heat Scale as well as well as doing something about the pin-point accuracy, I don't think Alpha Strikes will be that big of a deal.

[kameren]

after reading fifteen pages of this rant ima put my two scents in one how the hell do u guys believe that the mechs 1) can swing all weapons to bear on a single point it isnt possible the firing arcs from torso with limited movibility tfor the weapons and the arms having to bend in or out depending on the shots make it unfeesable period has too be some kinda firing arc for it. 2 seems as if everyones reason for wanting or not wanting as is the same thing they think it is an advantage when if u can do an as u will have high heat buildup which unless u are alone and in cover and u can one pop it that shuttdown u should and most likely will incure is end of u.

[Alaric Wolf Kerensky]

Caballo, on 14 November 2011 - 10:27 PM, said:

You can't limit the number of exact weapons to 2 or 3, basically because an atlas (and it's not the only one) carries 4 mid lasers, and, by the way you're approaching it, i guess 6 of a kind is excessive for you.

Maybe a way to "normalize" the situation is a heat system wich adds a penalty for every weapon fired starting from the third one. Tho you're not going to dodge an autocannon boat (if that thing exists) this way.

This is largely what I was thinking. Have exponential heat increase for every weapon stacked in a group, to emphasize the sudden surge of heat and the inability of the heatsinks to take it all on at once. As for autocannon boats, you clearly have never faced my Kill-an-Atlas-at-900meters-in-5-seconds Dire Wolf!!!

[Ray Mason]

Weapons with fixed angle should have some level of spread. If a model is designed around having more that 2 identical weapons then there should be 2 extremes - depending on the heatsink setup you should have either greater heat limits with much slower dissipation (ideal for one alpha every *** seconds, possibly massive recoil) or lesser heat limits with faster heat dissipation (ideal for suppressive fire, a barrage of rockets, firing one after another for extended period of time, lower recoil).

[guardian wolf]

Here is my take, and for it I shall use the Awesome as an example. So let's use the 4 PPC variant. The player, decides that they are going to take off a heatsink, for extra armor, or ammo, and such. Now when he goes into battle, he fires two of the four PPCs, no problem, the Awesome takes it, he then fires the third, almost right after. His heat should now be getting pretty high, and he fires the last one, He should now go into shutdown, but let's say he overrides and goes ahead, and fires his first two again. He should now, explode, due to the fact that his heat has gone through the roof. Now let's say he Alpha'd all at once. He should immediately be feeling the effects from said fourth shot in first example, and MORE, as his heatsinks are now a bit overloaded.

[MaddMaxx]

If we take the Stock Atlas we have been given. If you can get that mech into an Alpha range (all weapons will hit if things works out) said Alpha strike generates 29pts of Heat.

On a 30 pt Shut Down scale it seems obvious the design is taking that into affect. Now we will have to assume (a Mech design App could give definitive #'s I suppose) the Atlas also has enough HS's to bleed the whole 29 pts in the next round (10 secs) Yes we are not using rounds but bleed-off times could be ported directly (Dev choice)

Many Mech Stock designs can Alpha beyond the 30 pt shut down but often the weapons mounted have range variations such that Alpha'ing with them is senseless and generally a bad idea anyways.

That is why the use of Stock/Prime + Variants is a good idea and leave the Custom Boats out totally. Yes there are Stock Boats, of all varieties, but they are few and far between when compared to the over all Mech #'s available.

As noted. HEAT will be the balancing factor across the board and will hopeful decide the difference between a good pilot and an Elite one.

We should know more very soon. With March being Mech Warfare Month and the GDC ongoing. Let's hope we get some good news on both fronts.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 02 March 2012 - 08:32 AM.

[Rhavin]

Make the ability to alpha strike a High Tier learned mech ability, available at the top of a mechs "tech tree". In addition make it so that it uses a module, (that takes quite a bit of piloting to get) . This module is of limited use per match , has a drawback (such as extended heat shutdown or ammo cookoff), and the chance to nuke itself each time its used. It also costs a good bit to replace, thus makeing it a way for the game to bake credits out of the economy and keep its use lowered. Problem solved problem staying solved.

[Nick Makiaveli]

My idea for a solution was mentioned somewhere along this thread. Simply don't have heat sinks work instantaneously.

Take the Warhawk example above. That would be 64 heat total right? Sure it starts bleeding off quickly with 20 doubles, but if you actually spiked to 64, and the game calculated the results of that, then good luck to ya.