437 replies to this topic

[Creel]

Melissia, on 29 November 2011 - 05:35 PM, said:

... which is more pretty much a crapshoot outside of point blank range.

Just give reticle swaying based off of movement and heat levels, and enforce stronger heat penalties on alpha striking. I want it to hit where I aim, and if I miss, I want it to be because I missed, not because of a random number generator.

I would be in full agreement with the first sentence of your second paragraph, if you removed the word 'just' and inserted the phrase "in addition to moderate shot deviation, I would like to see the devs"...

Edited by Creel, 30 November 2011 - 08:20 AM.

[SwordofLight]

Tyrant, on 30 November 2011 - 06:27 AM, said:

Which would not be so bad if not for their spotting system, dice rolls on armour penetration, retarded artillery system or map design.

Those how have played clans wars, company battles or opens above tier 6 will have some understanding of this.

And there it is, the whine of the aty hater.

Hi! I've played CW - its broken. Pen is consistent - you're probably just hitting the wrong spot. Maps are fine - almost too much so - I'd like to see a random generator, but that'll never happen.

I play multiple tiers, multiple roles, and I've been playing since beta. I dont agree, nor do I have any understanding what this argument has to do with Alpha striking with a Battlemech.

My garage: KV, IS-3, S-51, Luchs, Marder II, M36 Slugger

-Don

[Kudzu]

Melissia, on 30 November 2011 - 03:35 AM, said:

*ignores Kudzu, who is doing nothing but trolling*

Who knew you could troll with pure facts?
Fact: You have shown no understanding of how CoF works, and refuse to explain your understanding of it.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Sword_of_Light, on 30 November 2011 - 08:46 AM, said:

And there it is, the whine of the aty hater.

Hi! I've played CW - its broken. Pen is consistent - you're probably just hitting the wrong spot. Maps are fine - almost too much so - I'd like to see a random generator, but that'll never happen.

I play multiple tiers, multiple roles, and I've been playing since beta. I dont agree, nor do I have any understanding what this argument has to do with Alpha striking with a Battlemech.

My garage: KV, IS-3, S-51, Luchs, Marder II, M36 Slugger

-Don

No pen is not consistent, a T30 shell should never ever bounce of a anything below tier 7/8 Hull armor, it does because of the DICE roll random system.
Arty is broken, without a doubt, it is the single biggest factor in deciding the outcome of the game.
Your garage is pretty trash for someone who has been playing since beta, IS3 and S51 as your highest tiers, you'll only really come to grasp the penetration system once your playing tier 10 and seeing shells bounce of low tier tanks that it should crush.

And no you can not play WoT for a few weeks and fully grasp how its game play works, the spotting system is possibly one of the most complex or broken (you decide) systems.

[Haeso]

This notion one must go to a four year university to study a specific game before he understands it is tiring.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Please explain in detail to me the World Of Tanks spotting system and all of its components, without this proof/factual content i am afraid i simply can not accept what you are saying (sound familiar?) and also because i really dont think you have the first clue on some of what you are talking about and are instead making assumptions.

[Kudzu]

DV^McKenna, on 30 November 2011 - 09:12 AM, said:

Please explain in detail to me the World Of Tanks spotting system and all of its components

I'm pretty sure that even the wargaming.net guy couldn't do that.
My profile btw-- I haven't played in months and I'm still pretty high in some of the rankings.
http://worldoftanks....468-Vaporlocke/

[SwordofLight]

DV^McKenna, on 30 November 2011 - 08:59 AM, said:

No pen is not consistent, a T30 shell should never ever bounce of a anything below tier 7/8 Hull armor, it does because of the DICE roll random system.
Arty is broken, without a doubt, it is the single biggest factor in deciding the outcome of the game.
Your garage is pretty trash for someone who has been playing since beta, IS3 and S51 as your highest tiers, you'll only really come to grasp the penetration system once your playing tier 10 and seeing shells bounce of low tier tanks that it should crush.

And no you can not play WoT for a few weeks and fully grasp how its game play works, the spotting system is possibly one of the most complex or broken (you decide) systems.

Ah, yeah. One - I'm not obsessive. Its why I was booted out of my clan, because I didnt spend every waking moment griding. And I thought CW was garbage, and said so. Two - I'm not paying for a game thats free. My garage is what I want my garage to be - the KV makes me money, no matter what. The IS-3 is top of the line with the BL-9 and 3 components, plus defeats dont cost me much - I wont be going past the IS-4 for this reason. The S-51 and Luchs are both new purchases, one from the sale of my JagdPanther (discovering I didnt have the cash for a Ferdie, and realzing I missed playing aty, and all the whining and YOU HACKER! complaints) and the other because I lucked into a promotional that gave gold and a days worth of premium - I bought two garage slots, one of which awaits the necessary creds for a Ferdie. The Marder II because its fun. You know fun? Its why I, at least, play computer games. The Slugger because I got so thoroughly ****** that the arty after the T-57 was useless that when the American TDs came out, I junked my Priest and went up the new tree.

Heres the pen system. Nothing is guaranteed. Not every shell fired in WWII exploded. Some were defective, some had poor quality control. The opening of the amazingly bad Lensmen series is a semi-autobiographical exploration of a poorly run ordinance shop in the States. If you point your gun at a target, you have a chance to punch through it - depending on range, angle of attack, and dumb luck. The long 88 has consistenly good pen, at range, but I've bounced off of KVs. I once took 14 hits in that afore mentioned Marder, and limped away to victory.

And you did not adress the most important point I made, which was:

"or do I have any understanding what this argument has to do with Alpha striking with a Battlemech."

-Don

[Halfinax]

This game will not be MW4 or WoT, and it doesn't have the same developers. The flaws that exist in those games do not inherently have to exist in this one. MWO will not have dice rolls the devs have said that so quit fretting over it. CoF is imo the most ammicable balance between player skill, and prevention of laser boat coring. I admittedly have not played MW4 since MekTek, but I played enough, watched enough vids of gameplay, and read enough in here to know that it wouldn't work for a game focused on MP. For the sake of all that is good they had to hack in a no one hit kill to prevent one shot coring. That is a bandage fix for the symptom, and not a solution for the cause.


BV will help to a large extent in preventing over the top boating regardless of how much customization the Devs allow. If it is implemented good luck getting that 3000 BV custom Laser boat Atlas with 0 heat on a team with anything other than Fleas armed with MGs. You might be the biggest baddest dude there, but your teammates are going to be little use, and you're going to be outnumbered and overall out gunned by the more balanced team coming at you.

[Tyrant]

Sword_of_Light, on 30 November 2011 - 09:40 AM, said:

Ah, yeah. One - I'm not obsessive. Its why I was booted out of my clan, because I didnt spend every waking moment griding. And I thought CW was garbage, and said so. Two - I'm not paying for a game thats free. My garage is what I want my garage to be - the KV makes me money, no matter what. The IS-3 is top of the line with the BL-9 and 3 components, plus defeats dont cost me much - I wont be going past the IS-4 for this reason. The S-51 and Luchs are both new purchases, one from the sale of my JagdPanther (discovering I didnt have the cash for a Ferdie, and realzing I missed playing aty, and all the whining and YOU HACKER! complaints) and the other because I lucked into a promotional that gave gold and a days worth of premium - I bought two garage slots, one of which awaits the necessary creds for a Ferdie. The Marder II because its fun. You know fun? Its why I, at least, play computer games. The Slugger because I got so thoroughly ****** that the arty after the T-57 was useless that when the American TDs came out, I junked my Priest and went up the new tree.

Heres the pen system. Nothing is guaranteed. Not every shell fired in WWII exploded. Some were defective, some had poor quality control. The opening of the amazingly bad Lensmen series is a semi-autobiographical exploration of a poorly run ordinance shop in the States. If you point your gun at a target, you have a chance to punch through it - depending on range, angle of attack, and dumb luck. The long 88 has consistenly good pen, at range, but I've bounced off of KVs. I once took 14 hits in that afore mentioned Marder, and limped away to victory.

And you did not adress the most important point I made, which was:

"or do I have any understanding what this argument has to do with Alpha striking with a Battlemech."

-Don

Sword_of_Light, on 30 November 2011 - 08:46 AM, said:

And there it is, the whine of the aty hater.

Hi! I've played CW - its broken. Pen is consistent - you're probably just hitting the wrong spot. Maps are fine - almost too much so - I'd like to see a random generator, but that'll never happen.

I play multiple tiers, multiple roles, and I've been playing since beta. I dont agree, nor do I have any understanding what this argument has to do with Alpha striking with a Battlemech.

My garage: KV, IS-3, S-51, Luchs, Marder II, M36 Slugger

-Don

Seeing as you decided to start measuring:

I have multiple tier 10 heavies, tier 9 destroyers and 2 tier 8 arty. My overall accuracy is around 71% and on average around 85% for my end game direct fire tanks.

Back to your posts: you are both wrong and mentally challenged, dont post about WoT ever again and re-read the last 3 or so pages where I was talking with Haeso.

[MagnusEffect]

With Halfinax on this. I would really like to see MWO have more differences than similarities to WoT. WoT had its moments but too much of it was just NOT FUN compared to every other BT/MW game I've ever played.

BV is BattleValue (for those who don't know): all components have a value that is added up to gauge the value of the mech. It will solve a lot of "balancing" issues, but it won't address the issue of all mechs suffering from the "saminess" problem of MW2/3. Should a Hunchback always be a "mech with one bigass gun" or should it be allowed to be a Laser or Missile boat? I really hope we prevent the latter. Encounters will be pretty generic if all mechs can take anything

Edited by MagnusEffect, 30 November 2011 - 10:18 AM.

[guardian wolf]

Yes there is a certain amount of CoF in every FPS that I've played, and I was just fine with it, and since this is a tread that deals with alpha striking, I believe that you two arguing about pinpoint accuracy should really knock it off, the devs will decide what to put in, and I'm all for a realistic Cone of Fire that gets larger while moving, this would make it more realistic, both of your ideas have merits, and they both have their downsides, just let the devs do their jobs so we can get a great game.

Oh and Tyrant, I got two Atlases hammering my position with lasers, calling in an artillery strike on grid point 117, bring the heat.
(crouches, and awaits the immediate hell that is surely arriving)

[Tyrant]

MagnusEffect, on 30 November 2011 - 10:12 AM, said:

BV will solve a lot of "balancing" issues, but it won't address the issue of all mechs suffering from the "saminess" problem. Should a Hunchback be anything but a "mech with one bigass gun" or should it be allowed to be a Laser or Missile boat? I really hope we prevent the latter. Encounters will be pretty generic if all mechs can take anything

Have to agree, I think for a game that is using the CBT IP, the match making should definitely use some sort of battle value system.

One of the issues will be something similar to WoW match making, to get a fair match you have to wait for a very long time; or force teams to spend N amount of points on a lance before they may enter the queue.

Edited by Tyrant, 30 November 2011 - 10:23 AM.

[Kallian Ryke]

With 334 replies to this topic, I suspect my vote will have more impact than this post... anyways:

I voted "lower alpha strike usage," but I believe the answer lies in a combination of separate solutions. Hardpoints for larger weapons that can be swapped on a 1:1 ratio. This means Gauss, AC-20, PPC, large laser, etc.

A degree of uncertainty to the alpha is also necessary - the concept of alpha strikes is that it is a last ditch effort to kill the enemy with everything you have while virtually damning your own heat curve in the process. This is not something to be used while on the move, nor from range, it is to be used primarily at knife fight do-or-die ranges. It should be a tactic that not only the pilot, but the player should fear having to USE, which means an element of uncertainty of how badly this will affect your own mech in the process of laying waste to the enemy.

Finally, in order to prevent alpha striking at long range, considerable recoil needs to be added. Should be just enough to render firing five or more large lasers at once to be a highly based on luck whether or not it hits, and avoid being overly hindering at the ranges where alpha strikes are intended for - close in fighting. Firing that many weapon systems... it just doesn't make logical sense that they would all impact with pinpoint precision.


These suggestions, I think, counter laser boats to a certain extent, though for missiles I am stumped honestly. Beyond limiting how many separate missile modules can fire at once, there isn't a whole lot (that I can see) that can be done. Creative ways include the possibility of jams increasing as the heat curve spikes, resulting in waves of missiles being more conductive to higher damage output.

[Rear Admiral]

my 2 cents:

alpha is a last ditch effort that has dire consequences (ammo cook off, engine meltdown). a simple shutdown for 5 secs doesnt do justice to the concept of battletech alpha strike.
Depending on the weapon systems fired, an alpha can be utterly disastrous to the firing mech, almost ensuring its destruction.

leave it in, just make the heat scale have some teeth so it doesnt get abused.

and really, all you jackasses on this forum constantly arguing about WoT, you guys need to realize taht this isnt WoT, and probably most of us dont give a rats *** f*cked sideways about your stupid stats and ranks. Take your stupid off topic arguments and your epeens elsewhere and quit hijacking every friggin thread w/ your keyboard diarrhea.

[dh crow]

Haeso, on 30 November 2011 - 09:03 AM, said:

This notion one must go to a four year university to study a specific game before he understands it is tiring.

You don't need huge experience to use the system, but if you're going to discuss the implications of cone-of-fire mechanics on tactical gameplay, having significant first-hand experience tends to lend a lot of weight to your argument.

Edited by dh crow, 01 December 2011 - 09:43 PM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

"These suggestions, I think, counter laser boats to a certain extent, though for missiles I am stumped honestly. Beyond limiting how many separate missile modules can fire at once, there isn't a whole lot (that I can see) that can be done. Creative ways include the possibility of jams increasing as the heat curve spikes, resulting in waves of missiles being more conductive to higher damage output. " All they need to do is set it up so missiles (LRM's) follow the rules. ie not all missiles hit and the scatter is such that those that do hit are spread over the mech, preventing coring. There is some "time of flight" possible so use of cover can also help. If the speed of light mechs is implemented properly it will be difficult to get a lock unless they're running straight at you.
To be honest varied terrain and proper use of heat (including it's effects on targeting etc) will help prevent the success of energy boats and the others usually suffer from low amounts of ammo which prevents sustained fire.

[Haeso]

dh crow, on 01 December 2011 - 09:42 PM, said:

You don't need huge experience to use the system, but if you're going to discuss the implications of cone-of-fire mechanics on tactical gameplay, having significant first-hand experience tends to lend a lot of weight to your argument.

Considering there's never been a Mechwarrior game with cone of fire, and I played MW4 for around 6 months with it's terrible pinpoint accuracy, I think I've got plenty of experience.

Also I'll say again: MW2 which is usually considered the best of the 4, purely TT damage model. Hitscan followed by random distribution, as I recall and it was a fun game that was moderately skillful given the simulator aspects plus technological limitations. Make the game about managing the simulator rather than just about aiming, and aiming isn't necessary for the majority of the skill.

But I'm not in favor of that, I'm in favor of both being important, thus CoF.

Pinpoint accuracy breaks the armor/damage model. Replacing the armor/damage model is akin to not being a 'Mech game anymore. These are two constants most can agree on, though the latter is obviously subjective the former is not. The armor/damage model was designed with purely random damage, it does not work with pinpoint accuracy which is not the fault of MW4.

Either you need to diverge much further from Battletech and redesign armor/health, or you need to get rid of pinpoint accuracy to be conducive to good gameplay.

Edited by Haeso, 02 December 2011 - 02:30 AM.

[Hitman xXx qp]

An Alpha Strike can only be performed every (x) seconds/minutes (possibly give players a counter). Should still not be a "common" thing (whatever that means).

An Alpha Strike will hurt but is never smart had the Heat that it will give will shutdown most mech outright and if you miss well you just dead. Plus if you put a timer on it make it be the cool down after a shut down as the most mechs will have to shutdown after a full Alpha.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

The whole point is to customise the mech (often with ER LL) and extra double heatsinks so that you can core any mech CT with one salvo at max range. This is the basis (as far as I can see) behind the "I want to hit where I aim" and "we must have full customisation Mechlab" proponents.