I voted remove the alpha strike mechwarrior has always been a more offensive game than defensive which means that over time in the PC game series the weapons became the mainstay and the defensive effectivness became less and less armors became weaker and electronics a less valuable asset to game play.In reality it should be the other way around most modern weapons of war(Aircraft,Tanks,Ships,Helecopters)use stealth to attain a place where they can get a maximum firing soulution not just run in guns blazing and alpha and kill a target in one shot.
It takes multiple shots or multiple units to take out a target.Mechwarrior should take this as a example to enhance gameplay and let smaller mechs not just assaults take a lead position in gameplay.
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The Alpha Strike & Boating: Two sides of the same coin.
Started by MagnusEffect, Nov 14 2011 09:21 PM
437 replies to this topic
#42
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Posted 15 November 2011 - 02:06 PM
I'll fall back on the method I've proposed before:
Part one: Charge-up delay:
Larger weapons have longer charge times. This is randomized to some extent. Example: PPC, 1000ms charge time +-100ms
Part two: Activation time variance:
A scatter applied to firing sequence. 100ms +- 100ms time to activation - 200ms "window" where weapon might be activated. Hard-set 50ms time added between activiation. The more weapons in a group, the bigger the activation time variance by some percent.
How this plays out:
Something with two big main guns such as a Warhammer will be able to fire both weapons very close together in timing, although the charge-up will be significant. A medium laser boat such as a HBK-P will be able to start firing weapons sooner, but the entire firing sequence for the group may be quite long, as long as a second or two. This eliminates the "pop and shoot" ability for all but a select group of mechs - those that cannot deliver heavy barrages anyway.
This also enhances deviation from pin-point MW4 style accuracy in conjunction with a limited amount of COF or whatever else they decide to use to express inaccuracy. It's doubtful if a pilot would be able to keep a reticule on, say, a specific leg for two full seconds as his boated weapon group cycles.
An interesting side note is that this will make visuals much more interesting for 'Mechs heavily armed with a single type of weapon.
Part one: Charge-up delay:
Larger weapons have longer charge times. This is randomized to some extent. Example: PPC, 1000ms charge time +-100ms
Part two: Activation time variance:
A scatter applied to firing sequence. 100ms +- 100ms time to activation - 200ms "window" where weapon might be activated. Hard-set 50ms time added between activiation. The more weapons in a group, the bigger the activation time variance by some percent.
How this plays out:
Something with two big main guns such as a Warhammer will be able to fire both weapons very close together in timing, although the charge-up will be significant. A medium laser boat such as a HBK-P will be able to start firing weapons sooner, but the entire firing sequence for the group may be quite long, as long as a second or two. This eliminates the "pop and shoot" ability for all but a select group of mechs - those that cannot deliver heavy barrages anyway.
This also enhances deviation from pin-point MW4 style accuracy in conjunction with a limited amount of COF or whatever else they decide to use to express inaccuracy. It's doubtful if a pilot would be able to keep a reticule on, say, a specific leg for two full seconds as his boated weapon group cycles.
An interesting side note is that this will make visuals much more interesting for 'Mechs heavily armed with a single type of weapon.
#43
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Posted 15 November 2011 - 02:45 PM
Not sure if this has been mentioned, since there are so many new threads and so little time to read them, but I will offer my input.
In 3025, I felt that there was a good resolution for the "alpha" strike - When 4 or more weapons were grouped, there was a cone/splash damage associated with the alpha strike. When 3 or fewer weapons were fired together, the damage was where the target reticle was located(except for missles which naturally had spread damage).
This had numerous benefits to setting it up this way:
In 3025, I felt that there was a good resolution for the "alpha" strike - When 4 or more weapons were grouped, there was a cone/splash damage associated with the alpha strike. When 3 or fewer weapons were fired together, the damage was where the target reticle was located(except for missles which naturally had spread damage).
This had numerous benefits to setting it up this way:
- The alpha strike wasn't "overpowered"
- It allowed you to still group some weapons together, especially those that refreshed at similar times
- This is the most important aspect in my mind: If you have 9 total weapons, grouped them in 3's for each TIC, to do maximum damage you had to place 3 shots in the exact same place - otherwise, one shot could essentially be the waste of 3 weapons.
#44
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Posted 15 November 2011 - 03:05 PM
Honestly, as long as weapons do not fire all precisely on a single spot and heat actually matters, alpha strikes will not be the mainstray of tactics in mech warrior.
#45
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Posted 15 November 2011 - 03:26 PM
I should be able to fire what ever amount of weapons I want if I i so choose to. With that being said.. I can not see how hard mounted lasers or A/C's can hit the same location unless they are zeroed into a specific range, and if they are they should continue with the arc with which they were fired from. This means hard mounted weapons when fired would slowing move into a single point, "the zero in range" then move away from each other as they keep moving past that range. Hard mounted weapons should hit there respective reticle, nothing else. Also a A/C has recoil, so larger A/C's should when fired with a laser send aim wild more because of the amount of recoil made from the A/C. I also think that as a A/C's get larger should jar the mech a amount respective to the size of the A/C, even go so far as to smashing a mech to the ground if running at full speed from shooting a A/C20. In alot of the novels you read about having to go to a combat speed, which if memory serves is normaly half of full speed or so.
Edited by Hollister, 15 November 2011 - 03:30 PM.
#46
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Posted 15 November 2011 - 04:02 PM
I'm not really sure that you could feasibly do away with ***.
If you blocked alpha strikes, how would you technically define an AS (by both boats and diverse spec mechs)? 100% of weapons fired? 90+% fired? What ever it is, people will find the level and sit just below it, possibly by adding extra weapons that they never intend to use, just so that they can fire everything else and stay below whatever level is set for an AS.
There are also some occassions when you legitimately want to AS, but not do it during the course of normal events, such as you and an opponant being low on health, and you have to kill him before he kills you, and the only way to do that is an AS.
I would go more for having a strong penalty for using all of your weapons at the same time, or within a short time. Possibly, this could be done with having a modifier to heat for every additional weapon fired, over and above the base heat produced per weapon. For example, each weapon has a base heat production value, and this would be additive, but there would also be a x1.05, say, modifier per weapon, performed on the total additive heat value. The more weapons you fire simultaneously, the greater the modifier. This would still allow you to fire a few high-heat weapons without the penalty, but many low-heat weapons would be more risky.
You could, alternatively, have the chance of catastrophic failure (increased weapon jams, rounds exploding in the chambers, that sort of thing) that is based on the number of weapons fired at once, and not heat, so a few large weapons would be fine, but an AS would prove hazadous to your health.
Altimately, though, I think if they keep customisation options from being able to completely outfit any chassis with one type of weapon entirely, then you should minimise the desireability of AS, other than in emergencies.
If you blocked alpha strikes, how would you technically define an AS (by both boats and diverse spec mechs)? 100% of weapons fired? 90+% fired? What ever it is, people will find the level and sit just below it, possibly by adding extra weapons that they never intend to use, just so that they can fire everything else and stay below whatever level is set for an AS.
There are also some occassions when you legitimately want to AS, but not do it during the course of normal events, such as you and an opponant being low on health, and you have to kill him before he kills you, and the only way to do that is an AS.
I would go more for having a strong penalty for using all of your weapons at the same time, or within a short time. Possibly, this could be done with having a modifier to heat for every additional weapon fired, over and above the base heat produced per weapon. For example, each weapon has a base heat production value, and this would be additive, but there would also be a x1.05, say, modifier per weapon, performed on the total additive heat value. The more weapons you fire simultaneously, the greater the modifier. This would still allow you to fire a few high-heat weapons without the penalty, but many low-heat weapons would be more risky.
You could, alternatively, have the chance of catastrophic failure (increased weapon jams, rounds exploding in the chambers, that sort of thing) that is based on the number of weapons fired at once, and not heat, so a few large weapons would be fine, but an AS would prove hazadous to your health.
Altimately, though, I think if they keep customisation options from being able to completely outfit any chassis with one type of weapon entirely, then you should minimise the desireability of AS, other than in emergencies.
#47
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Posted 15 November 2011 - 04:19 PM
It sure would be nice if they could put in a system where heat made your reticle larger, and made it so beam weapons hit within ~ x% of dead center with succesive rapid hits within .x seconds branched out from center. This would make it in some ways equitable with the recoil factor of ballistic weapons. (and the hopefully simulated torque and strain that the weapons put on your chassis)
#48
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Posted 15 November 2011 - 04:25 PM
Sorry, haven't read the all replies in the thread.
It's quite simple though, heat should be the major factor that limits derpa-striking. The problem that other MW games have had in this regard is they had ways out of the negative effects, i.e. coolant or shut-down override.
Why not make an overheating shutdown last 10 seconds, and if you do override major consequences like heat-death to the pilot. It should really ***** the person over that tries this bull all the time, and it really doesn't have any place in this game.
My daddies Mechwarrior has sucked in this regard, hope to see a real change in these types of gameplay mechanics.
(Why can't I say s_c_rew?) Silly I say.
It's quite simple though, heat should be the major factor that limits derpa-striking. The problem that other MW games have had in this regard is they had ways out of the negative effects, i.e. coolant or shut-down override.
Why not make an overheating shutdown last 10 seconds, and if you do override major consequences like heat-death to the pilot. It should really ***** the person over that tries this bull all the time, and it really doesn't have any place in this game.
My daddies Mechwarrior has sucked in this regard, hope to see a real change in these types of gameplay mechanics.
(Why can't I say s_c_rew?) Silly I say.
Edited by AlfalphaCat, 15 November 2011 - 04:27 PM.
#49
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Posted 15 November 2011 - 04:26 PM
AlfalphaCat, on 15 November 2011 - 04:25 PM, said:
Sorry, haven't read the all replies in the thread.
It's quite simple though, heat should be the major factor that limits derpa-striking. The problem that other MW games have had in this regard is they had ways out of the negative effects, i.e. coolant or shut-down override.
Why not make a overheating shutdown last 10 seconds, and if you do override major consequences like heat-death to the pilot. It should really ***** the person over that tries this bull all the time, and it really doesn't have any place in this game.
My daddies Mechwarrior has sucked in this regard, hope to see a real change in these types of gameplay mechanics.
It's quite simple though, heat should be the major factor that limits derpa-striking. The problem that other MW games have had in this regard is they had ways out of the negative effects, i.e. coolant or shut-down override.
Why not make a overheating shutdown last 10 seconds, and if you do override major consequences like heat-death to the pilot. It should really ***** the person over that tries this bull all the time, and it really doesn't have any place in this game.
My daddies Mechwarrior has sucked in this regard, hope to see a real change in these types of gameplay mechanics.
Yeah, the BT universe I came from there was no coolant or manual override ... completely forgot about that aspect, thanks for the reminder
#50
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Posted 15 November 2011 - 04:46 PM
Alpha Striking is not an issue, never has been.
All this nonsense about adding random variable factors into the mix (cone of fire/dice roll type luck etc) detracts from the core aspect of playing the game, Pilot Skill.
Pilot skill should always settle any battle, not dice rolls, not cones of fire not how much real cash you throw at the game.
Taking the decisive moments of battles out of players hands and putting it into a "dice roll" of chance will make this game very short lived.
When i first started playing MW games, the first thing someone told me was Play more get better.
And that still applies today.
All this nonsense about adding random variable factors into the mix (cone of fire/dice roll type luck etc) detracts from the core aspect of playing the game, Pilot Skill.
Pilot skill should always settle any battle, not dice rolls, not cones of fire not how much real cash you throw at the game.
Taking the decisive moments of battles out of players hands and putting it into a "dice roll" of chance will make this game very short lived.
When i first started playing MW games, the first thing someone told me was Play more get better.
And that still applies today.
Edited by DV^McKenna, 15 November 2011 - 04:48 PM.
#51
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Posted 15 November 2011 - 05:01 PM
DV^McKenna, on 15 November 2011 - 04:46 PM, said:
Alpha Striking is not an issue, never has been.
All this nonsense about adding random variable factors into the mix (cone of fire/dice roll type luck etc) detracts from the core aspect of playing the game, Pilot Skill.
Pilot skill should always settle any battle, not dice rolls, not cones of fire not how much real cash you throw at the game.
Taking the decisive moments of battles out of players hands and putting it into a "dice roll" of chance will make this game very short lived.
When i first started playing MW games, the first thing someone told me was Play more get better.
And that still applies today.
All this nonsense about adding random variable factors into the mix (cone of fire/dice roll type luck etc) detracts from the core aspect of playing the game, Pilot Skill.
Pilot skill should always settle any battle, not dice rolls, not cones of fire not how much real cash you throw at the game.
Taking the decisive moments of battles out of players hands and putting it into a "dice roll" of chance will make this game very short lived.
When i first started playing MW games, the first thing someone told me was Play more get better.
And that still applies today.
-this
#52
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Posted 15 November 2011 - 05:10 PM
DV^McKenna, on 15 November 2011 - 04:46 PM, said:
Alpha Striking is not an issue, never has been.
All this nonsense about adding random variable factors into the mix (cone of fire/dice roll type luck etc) detracts from the core aspect of playing the game, Pilot Skill.
Pilot skill should always settle any battle, not dice rolls, not cones of fire not how much real cash you throw at the game.
Taking the decisive moments of battles out of players hands and putting it into a "dice roll" of chance will make this game very short lived.
When i first started playing MW games, the first thing someone told me was Play more get better.
And that still applies today.
All this nonsense about adding random variable factors into the mix (cone of fire/dice roll type luck etc) detracts from the core aspect of playing the game, Pilot Skill.
Pilot skill should always settle any battle, not dice rolls, not cones of fire not how much real cash you throw at the game.
Taking the decisive moments of battles out of players hands and putting it into a "dice roll" of chance will make this game very short lived.
When i first started playing MW games, the first thing someone told me was Play more get better.
And that still applies today.
And part of piloting a 'Mech is to manage heat, not just how well you handle Gunnery. I agree that random goof mechanics will not solve this problem. And it has been a problem in this game genre, as it dumbs down to the point of making Mechwarrior a FPS with robots. Many don't want this.
It is also a skill to not overtax your 'Mechs capabilities, and that is what I believe people are talking about here.
The ability to alpha should not be removed entirely, but it should be unwise in most circumstances, instead of a FTW button.
#53
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Posted 15 November 2011 - 05:40 PM
The Sniper, on 15 November 2011 - 04:26 PM, said:
Yeah, the BT universe I came from there was no coolant or manual override ... completely forgot about that aspect, thanks for the reminder
There was a Pilot Roll to avoid it. Perhaps have overriding a shutdown involve a small console mini-game?
#54
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Posted 15 November 2011 - 05:41 PM
To answer at the poll: How about none of the above?
I don't thik there should be any rule or limitation regarding alpha striking, other than the limitations already built in every 'Mech:
1. Heat
2. Balance
3. Power output
Let me explain:
1. Heat: Get that right, and you won't be able to alpha strike weapons that generate too much heat for it will instantly overheat your 'Mech and either destroy it, or make it shut down.
2. Balance: Get that right, and alpha striking too many heavy ballistic weapons together will rock your 'Mech so much it will lose balance and fall, or miss its target because of the very heavy recoil.
3. Power output: Get that right, and firing all your weapons together will drain so much power that your 'Mech will shutdown or some systems will fail or short circuit.
In the novels, alpha striking was rarely done for all of the above reasons, and I think it should be that way in MWO too.
No need for weird and unrealistic limitations... just stick to the limitations that already exist in the world of BattleTech.
I don't thik there should be any rule or limitation regarding alpha striking, other than the limitations already built in every 'Mech:
1. Heat
2. Balance
3. Power output
Let me explain:
1. Heat: Get that right, and you won't be able to alpha strike weapons that generate too much heat for it will instantly overheat your 'Mech and either destroy it, or make it shut down.
2. Balance: Get that right, and alpha striking too many heavy ballistic weapons together will rock your 'Mech so much it will lose balance and fall, or miss its target because of the very heavy recoil.
3. Power output: Get that right, and firing all your weapons together will drain so much power that your 'Mech will shutdown or some systems will fail or short circuit.
In the novels, alpha striking was rarely done for all of the above reasons, and I think it should be that way in MWO too.
No need for weird and unrealistic limitations... just stick to the limitations that already exist in the world of BattleTech.
#55
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Posted 15 November 2011 - 06:42 PM
yep - pilot skill acts as its own filter.
There is no as/boat "problem to be fixed" -
Run a boat or alpha every time you pull the trigger, and a better pilot will strip your arms, hud your mech, and leave you limping.
It's not an advantage, it's not a problem.
I've heard discussion on "pay-for-skill" gaming and the resistance to it. How would coding in "punishments" for AS or boating be any different? Skills in heat management and loadout prep (with respect to recycle time & heat) are learned. What pilot worth his salt would count himself as worthy knowing his opponent had been hamstrung before the battle? Sure, we'll all BUY the game, but at that point how many will stay with it?
(weapon kick back?!? Puh-leze - I can drive a 3 ton Lincoln off road and barely feel it, a100 ton mech in the 30-whatever century and we can't put a shock absorber on an autocannon? Just sayin'... What's the point of living in the future?)
There is no as/boat "problem to be fixed" -
Run a boat or alpha every time you pull the trigger, and a better pilot will strip your arms, hud your mech, and leave you limping.
It's not an advantage, it's not a problem.
I've heard discussion on "pay-for-skill" gaming and the resistance to it. How would coding in "punishments" for AS or boating be any different? Skills in heat management and loadout prep (with respect to recycle time & heat) are learned. What pilot worth his salt would count himself as worthy knowing his opponent had been hamstrung before the battle? Sure, we'll all BUY the game, but at that point how many will stay with it?
(weapon kick back?!? Puh-leze - I can drive a 3 ton Lincoln off road and barely feel it, a100 ton mech in the 30-whatever century and we can't put a shock absorber on an autocannon? Just sayin'... What's the point of living in the future?)
Edited by NoMovingParts, 15 November 2011 - 06:49 PM.
#56
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Posted 15 November 2011 - 06:57 PM
Like I said somewhere else, (too many threads, can't keep track of them all), each weapon fired may or may not hit regardless of whether it's chain-fire or an alpha strike. If it does hit, it may or may not hit exactly in the spot you were aiming. If you're going to keep 'linked-fire', then 'fix' it so that only exact like-weapons (ML-ML, PPC-PPC, AC5-AC5) can be linked -- if one hits then both hit, but not necessarily in the same location, and if there's a miss, then they both miss (personally, I'd say lose the linked-fire). As for boating, it's valid strategically. Having said that, of course it'll be abused in some shape or form... why? cause that's the way it *always* goes (sigh). It's even there in the 'canon' Battletech universe. Does it royally suck to be on the receiving end? Definitely, but then again ... war sucks, get used to it.
#57
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Posted 15 November 2011 - 07:39 PM
The Sniper, on 15 November 2011 - 04:26 PM, said:
Yeah, the BT universe I came from there was no coolant or manual override ... completely forgot about that aspect, thanks for the reminder
override was in the novels, i remember reading about pilots "slapping" over ride buttons for the reactor till they fried themselves. i still dont understand the concept of a coolant flush though. i mean, if i drained my radiator while driving my vehicle would run hotter... coolant flush would make sense during repair, like if the coolant starts breaking down and you needed to replace it... but thats about it.
#58
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Posted 15 November 2011 - 08:59 PM
I should be able to put whatever weapons in however many groups with whatever other weapons as I want to.
You wouldn't drain your radiator, you'd grab the extra gallon of water in your trunk. And when you overheated again, you'd be stuck on the side of the road. Of course it would depend on how your drove your car, ie managed your heat.
The coolant in MW4 was limited. I don't see the comparisons made as viable. Override shutdown only delays you being forced to suicide for a short time. They are not cop outs for unlimited weapon discharge. The straw man argument presented so many times already on this forum that essentially someone can take an 8 erlg super nova and repeatedly alpha strike in a HLA server only proves that person has never played the game before. It's similar to the all medium laser hunchback poll, except the hunchbank can't boat medium lasers. I actually read theforce ask the developer about "the reboot" how they plan on fixing a pilot taking 4 medium lasers and doing as much damage as an AC20. I lol'd.
Don't forget that your weapons discharge isn't the only thing that can generate heat. It's important to remember that even if you don't fire your weapons, you could still overheat.
For me, at some point they added a damage modifier to the alpha strike, which isn't simply putting all your weapons in one group. If you have ballistic and energy, or missles, you need to time it right to hit them all at the same time. I'm not sure why, maybe it was to discourage chain firing. I saw alot more chain firing in Vengeance. Wouldn't you know that a bunch of people complained about it, so they tried to curb gameplay and now players are complaining about the result.
I do not think that the same effect on you should happen if I hit you individually, or even in 2-3 groups, than if I hit you all at once with all my weapons. Extra damage? No.. but definetely knock, chance to turn you over, something besides me sitting there having to wait for weapon recycle.
Gorthaur, on 15 November 2011 - 07:39 PM, said:
i mean, if i drained my radiator while driving my vehicle would run hotter...
You wouldn't drain your radiator, you'd grab the extra gallon of water in your trunk. And when you overheated again, you'd be stuck on the side of the road. Of course it would depend on how your drove your car, ie managed your heat.
The coolant in MW4 was limited. I don't see the comparisons made as viable. Override shutdown only delays you being forced to suicide for a short time. They are not cop outs for unlimited weapon discharge. The straw man argument presented so many times already on this forum that essentially someone can take an 8 erlg super nova and repeatedly alpha strike in a HLA server only proves that person has never played the game before. It's similar to the all medium laser hunchback poll, except the hunchbank can't boat medium lasers. I actually read theforce ask the developer about "the reboot" how they plan on fixing a pilot taking 4 medium lasers and doing as much damage as an AC20. I lol'd.
Don't forget that your weapons discharge isn't the only thing that can generate heat. It's important to remember that even if you don't fire your weapons, you could still overheat.
For me, at some point they added a damage modifier to the alpha strike, which isn't simply putting all your weapons in one group. If you have ballistic and energy, or missles, you need to time it right to hit them all at the same time. I'm not sure why, maybe it was to discourage chain firing. I saw alot more chain firing in Vengeance. Wouldn't you know that a bunch of people complained about it, so they tried to curb gameplay and now players are complaining about the result.
I do not think that the same effect on you should happen if I hit you individually, or even in 2-3 groups, than if I hit you all at once with all my weapons. Extra damage? No.. but definetely knock, chance to turn you over, something besides me sitting there having to wait for weapon recycle.
#59
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Posted 15 November 2011 - 09:23 PM
Tierloc, on 15 November 2011 - 08:59 PM, said:
For me, at some point they added a damage modifier to the alpha strike, which isn't simply putting all your weapons in one group. If you have ballistic and energy, or missles, you need to time it right to hit them all at the same time. I'm not sure why, maybe it was to discourage chain firing. I saw alot more chain firing in Vengeance. Wouldn't you know that a bunch of people complained about it, so they tried to curb gameplay and now players are complaining about the result.
I almost want to make a thread on how "Mechwarrior4: Black Knight" killed the game and made the game into pop-tarting, get the largest Assault mech alpha-strike game.
Edited by Yeach, 15 November 2011 - 09:23 PM.
#60
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Posted 15 November 2011 - 09:23 PM
I... really don't understand the coolant flush mechanic from previous MechWarrior games. Ignoring the fact that Battletech proper does not have such a mechanic (at least, not without going to experimental tech that takes up tons/crits), it does not make sense from a pure, very basic mechanical point of view.
Flushing the coolant on an active system should momentarily spike the heat, as you are draining all your coolant out for a brief period of time. True, replacing said coolant with fresh, cool fluid should net you a nice return later, but the spike preceding that may well be catastrophic.
Furthermore, I can't seem to wrap my head around 'Mechs having the immense amount of replacement coolant fluid on-board "just in case".
Flushing the coolant on an active system should momentarily spike the heat, as you are draining all your coolant out for a brief period of time. True, replacing said coolant with fresh, cool fluid should net you a nice return later, but the spike preceding that may well be catastrophic.
Furthermore, I can't seem to wrap my head around 'Mechs having the immense amount of replacement coolant fluid on-board "just in case".
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