437 replies to this topic

[Rzhanov]

Generaly I do not care. Both tactics have their own usage.

[Kudzu]

Tierloc, on 15 November 2011 - 08:59 PM, said:

It's similar to the all medium laser hunchback poll, except the hunchbank can't boat medium lasers. I actually read theforce ask the developer about "the reboot" how they plan on fixing a pilot taking 4 medium lasers and doing as much damage as an AC20. I lol'd.

An actual canon design begs to differ:
HBK-4P - Also called the Swayback, the 4P Hunchback is modified to carry only energy weapons. The Autocannon/20 was replaced with six additional Medium Lasers. In order to handle the incredibly high heat load, the 'Mech has twenty three heat sinks. While this may seem like a downgrade to the design, the combined firepower of all eight Medium Lasers can do twice as much damage as the Autocannon they replaced. BV (1.0) = 960, BV (2.0) = 1,138

The big difference being that in TT the shots scattered instead of all magically hitting the same spot.

[Faugh]

I have to agree with several others that this will likely not be an issue. Heat management dictates that making a mech able to move, alpha, and not overheat means it will be under-gunned anyway. Speed is important in virtually all battles real and simulated.

Better pilots will link smaller weapon clusters, and likely in chain-fire combos for a variety of situations. Sure there will be a suicidal AS button on most folks UI if they can have it, but I doubt there are too many other reasons to use it if you have any skill.

Boating to some extent will always have a place as there are uses in fire-support roles for boats of LRMs in particular. That being said, the developers have hinted far more urban styles of combat or rough terrain will make such units vulnerable without substantial support. there will be objectives to defend and capture that will require more assertive individual skill.

[Angel Mortalitas]

Thomas Hogarth, on 15 November 2011 - 09:23 PM, said:

I... really don't understand the coolant flush mechanic from previous MechWarrior games. Ignoring the fact that Battletech proper does not have such a mechanic (at least, not without going to experimental tech that takes up tons/crits), it does not make sense from a pure, very basic mechanical point of view.

Flushing the coolant on an active system should momentarily spike the heat, as you are draining all your coolant out for a brief period of time. True, replacing said coolant with fresh, cool fluid should net you a nice return later, but the spike preceding that may well be catastrophic.

Furthermore, I can't seem to wrap my head around 'Mechs having the immense amount of replacement coolant fluid on-board "just in case".

A lot of people get a little confused over this mechanic. The "coolant flush" was not the same as you would do for your car in that you flush out the old coolant and corrosion and replace it with fresh coolant. In MW it was increasing the volume of coolant through the reactor.

edited for emphasis

Edited by Angel Mortalitas, 15 November 2011 - 11:52 PM.

[Erevis Cale]

Alpha strikes are part of the game. If they implement a heat shutdown timer of 20-30 seconds people would have to ***** the risk vs rewards. As in World of Tanks a tracked tank destroyer is usually dead meat and your track get fixed within a 5-6 seconds so imagine being unmovable for 20-30 seconds? Pretty much game over. I mean if a person wants to play a charger why shouldn't he be allowed to fire all 5 of his light lasers at one time as often as he/she wants?

[Kurios]

Collant Pods. Page 303, Tactical Operations. Though, they do have a drawback. They explode like ammo for 10 points if critted. Also, funny enough, where produced by fed suns in 3049.... Not quite MW4 style. They just increased the efficiency of your heat sinks by one point. No matter what type. Only mount 4 sinks? 4 points. Even if your using double heat sinks.

The other "wierd way" is... dedicating heat sinks to an item... or linking your heat syncs. but Im going to gamble thats a bit too complicated... ( page 105, same book. Rerouting Collant )

EDIT

Ohh pretty... heat sink failure.... for every "round" you have over 5 heat ( aka you start to notice it) there's a chance that you burn out your heat sinks and the cooling efficiency of your mech is degraded by at least one point. Untill you get your coolant replaced of course. So beware boats. If they dare implement it, your gonna burn up your coolant ( and your alpha is gonna be a one shot thing )

Edited by Kurios, 16 November 2011 - 12:54 AM.

[wolf on the tide]

didn't wolf's dragoons modify wasps to fire small lasers somewhere in the canon?

i'd like to see something along the lines of, alpha strike / heat spike / shut down / blown to bits while a sitting duck

you cant remove the ugre to boat in other people, but you can let them learn what the risks are keeping the heat spike/overheat/shutdown mechanism accurate.

ah heck, lets be evil, lets have the old skool rifleman as the starter mech, that'll teach 'em

[Tierloc]

Yeach, on 15 November 2011 - 09:23 PM, said:

made the game into pop-tarting, get the largest Assault mech alpha-strike game.

You've never been involved in organized (league) play, then.

[Tierloc]

Kudzu, on 15 November 2011 - 09:46 PM, said:

An actual canon design begs to differ:
HBK-4P - Also called the Swayback, the 4P Hunchback is modified to carry only energy weapons. The Autocannon/20 was replaced with six additional Medium Lasers. In order to handle the incredibly high heat load, the 'Mech has twenty three heat sinks. While this may seem like a downgrade to the design, the combined firepower of all eight Medium Lasers can do twice as much damage as the Autocannon they replaced. BV (1.0) = 960, BV (2.0) = 1,138

The big difference being that in TT the shots scattered instead of all magically hitting the same spot.

The big difference is that the references are to gameplay, specifically to "previous editions of mechwarrior", where the IS medium laser is only 2.5 points of damage, and the hunchback (introduced in the IS mech pack) carried a heavy gauss on the shoulder. So you take the direct fire shots in the game, apply TT damage to it, and suddenly it's extremely unbalanced - Yeah, that's why the game doesn't follow those damage outlines exactly.

Just another example of how the TT rules don't translate directly to a good simulation. You have to be flexible to make something work that not only makes sense and holds on to the theme of BT but people still want to play.

There is nothing magical about waiting for your recticle to turn red. Maybe lasers need a lock time, like missles. You can dumb fire it, but to make sure it hits, you need a lock on.

Either way, if any previous MW title has proven anything, it's that someone will always complain about it - and depending on how the developer views it, it will make or break the game when they make changes.

[Xanquil]

I have one issue with the "boating problem" as it has been called. What about the mechs that are that way stock.(there are several) Case in point the Supernova it has 6 ER large lasers stock, I don't think it would be right to change it. The heat it generates more than makes up for it's firepower.
The best change is to aply a scater shot modifier to alpha strike.(more so than normal) Considering it has been stated that MWO is going to follow TT closely(FAQs) I don't see "boating" to be as big of a problem as it has been in previous games.

[Ogryn]

Ack, edit for clarity here.  The tabletops had spread well before the computer games came out, and the computer versions didn't carry it forward.  
Aiming reticles, anyone?  Simple cone based shot probability circle?  Similar to any of a number of games that have guns/cannons/whatever?  More weapons in a group, larger your circle starts out, and a larger final aimpoint.  Shot probability being what it is, some kind of aiming mechanic to keep the game away from the pop-shot-pop of previous computer editions.  
To me, that would mean that the game mechanics would push the boat users to close range.  To a point that they should get some kind of benefit.  Spread was a tabletop mechanic that didn't show up in the Mechwarrior computer franchise.  It made more dmg/weight inefficient weapons (AC20s, Gauss, Thunderbolts, Melee) popular, since you could really hammer one point.  
Given the issues of weight and space, you couldn't really expect to load up your main mechs with nothing but AC20s all day tho.  You'd run out of ammo, no range, and generally it was a bad idea.  Situationally, that could be a viable tactic, but your average force would have a specific boat (Griffin, say) and a spread of more balanced weapon and range mechs (Shadowhawk, Wolverine).  The Griff would snipe and range harrass, with a PPC and LRM10.  The Shads and Wolvs would support, screen and generally play to the weapon spread that they had (Med lasers, SRM6, LRM5, AC5, Mach guns).  
The Fafnir and Hollander are a pair of good examples of why ultra specialization in tabletop was a bad idea.  Played to their strengths, their single (or fafs pair of) high damage weapons worked as an area denial weapon, forcing the enemy to either deal with the threat or to avoid them, channeling them into an area that played to the rest of your forces strength.  In ambush scenarios, the Faf especially, but even the Hollander could make itself felt.  But barring some extreme luck, you generally would lose them shortly after.
Optimized boat mechs in the tabletop generally got owned by spread.  Look at the Pirahna (clantech MG boat 20 tonner).  Potential damage/round of fire was 20+, which for a light in tabletop was pretty damned amazing.  But spread and range meant that he would be chewing on a target for a couple of turns.  The Behemoth and Fafnir are a pair from the other end of the spectrum.  Heavy hitters with some HUGE guns.  Maneuver, speed, flexibility all suffered.  No indirect fire, no missile, no crit seeking.  If you didn't hit the same spot twice on an assault class target, you'd never breach their armor.  If you DID, it was amazing.  And any weapon dealing 15pts+ made for a great tarcomp weapon to nail specific parts... or headcap with.  But you couldn't COUNT on it happening.
Which is where this rambling *** post is going.  Put in a spreading reticle mechanic.  Shots should go IN the circle, but the circle needs to expand with movement, damage, recoil, hits, all those things that make it rough in tabletop.  And then depending on balance and equipment, don't be too generous with how small the reticle can get.

Edited by Ogryn, 16 November 2011 - 06:44 AM.

[azov]

This won't be an issue if you don't have coolant. If you try to alpha strike on a boated mech, odds are you will just go boom.

For Example:
Warhawk.
4 ERPPCs
+1 LRM10
+20 Double Heatsinks
= 24 Excess Heat

That is enough to explode a mech. And if you can't sit there and dump coolant like in previous versions, it should be pretty well balanced.

[Thomas Hogarth]

azov, on 16 November 2011 - 06:41 AM, said:

This won't be an issue if you don't have coolant. If you try to alpha strike on a boated mech, odds are you will just go boom.

For Example:
Warhawk.
4 ERPPCs
+1 LRM10
+20 Double Heatsinks
= 24 Excess Heat

That is enough to explode a mech. And if you can't sit there and dump coolant like in previous versions, it should be pretty well balanced.

24 overheat is a potential ammo explosion, avoid on 6+ roll. Since a Warhawk Prime has CASE, that's probably not going to kill it even if it does pop.

[Ogryn]

Thomas Hogarth, on 16 November 2011 - 06:49 AM, said:

24 overheat is a potential ammo explosion, avoid on 6+ roll.  Since a Warhawk Prime has CASE, that's probably not going to kill it even if it does pop.

I agree that 24 heat/turn on alpha fire isn't game breaking. 2 turns of fire with decent luck, and generally going to wreck an average medium. Big risk tho, overheat, fall over, two turns to restart, stand back up. Risk/reward. Also, again, remove fixed aimpoint, add shot probability reticle. If you can't be guaranteed to core them, folks are less likely to alpha. As an aside, my original post didn't cover most of the clantech available. The Hellstar is a later series clan mech. 4 Clan ERPPCs, 4/6 movement, and SIXTY. 60. SIX. ZERO. Heat dissipation a turn. 95 tonner. This is a cannon, tabletop. Mech. BV in the 3000 range. http://www.sarna.net/wiki/HellstarNote the 50heat dissipation Tarcomp variant. I really didn't like this mech. But note that the BV is 3000. As a balance mechanic, that sucker cost as much as an Atlas 8d, and pick another IS heavy mech (Catapult, or mediums, or a couple of lights). While the Hellstar would wtfpwn one of the mechs in a couple of turns, the larger number of mechs I'd field, especially in a 6000/9000 BV game meant that when he had a pair of Hellstars, I'd run with up to 6 mediums. I'd lose more than half, but he simply couldn't kill me fast enough to prevent the swarming and death of both of his units.

[Wolvers]

Ogryn, on 16 November 2011 - 06:41 AM, said:

Ack, edit for clarity here. The tabletops had spread well before the computer games came out, and the computer versions didn't carry it forward.
Aiming reticles, anyone? Simple cone based shot probability circle? Similar to any of a number of games that have guns/cannons/whatever? More weapons in a group, larger your circle starts out, and a larger final aimpoint. Shot probability being what it is, some kind of aiming mechanic to keep the game away from the pop-shot-pop of previous computer editions.
To me, that would mean that the game mechanics would push the boat users to close range.

Yeah that sounds alright, personally I don't have a problem with someone loading up a mech with a heap of lasers for example, but yes, it worked out better on the TT as the shots were spread out. Mind you, more shots, more chances of critical hits and head shots.

[Ogryn]

Critseeking, like legging, is a viable tactic brought about by the mechanics of their relevant games. Legging was/is a FPS tactic that relied on pinpoint accuracy, and the lower armor of legs compared to other possible targets. Shot cone/RNG hit locations got around that handily.

Critseeking, especially with something big to breach armor, is fine to me. You have a loadout that relies on a large weapon to punch the hole, but then a spread of something smaller to try and economically capitalize on that. Perfectly alright with me. Gauss rifles backed by LRMs, PPCs/LLasers with MGs/Med lasers. Any way you look at it, it's a way to diversify fits, which is never a bad thing. On a side note, two tons of LBx Ammo, one ton slug, one ton spread... oh yeah, me likey.

Headcappers with Tarcomps... not sure how to get around that. But by the same token, it wasn't a reliable tactic in tabletop with the RNG. Brutal when it worked, but you couldn't tactically rely on it happening.

I guess where I'm going with this is hoping for the 'based on the TT game' lines from the devblogs and quotes to be followed.

Screaming about the lack of immersion of non pinpoint accuracy... yeah. Not so much. One shot kills are no fun for anyone. Even allowing for recoil and impact shaking to mess with aiming will help mitigate pinpoint accuracy. But I'd rather not see pinpoint at all. I'm not looking for a reticule that will put your shots at his feet at 10meters, but something that at 420meters (14 hexes) has a shot spread that covers the entire top half of a mech. Big enough that you can still miss, especially if you're shooting on the move, or being hit while you take the shot.

Also, don't forget that weapons have max ranges. 9 hexes (270 meters) for a medium laser. That's it. That's your range. So alpha your small pirahna weapons all you want, but if they can open the range on you, nothing's going to happen to your target. The reverse is true, however. Get your boat mech into someones rear arc at 10 meters, you SHOULD get a good chance of reaming them out. You just shouldn't be able to pick the pixel on the cockpit/leg/CT to shoot at.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Maybe the maps should have little hexagonal squares, and played from a top down perspective, with hands coming down to move the mech pieces.

Back to seriousness.....

By all means the Devs should stick to the TT heat management/Damage Table aspects including removing Coolant Flushing.

Just leave the aiming aspect in the pilots hands, else what is the point in playing? if nothing you do is actually down to you? but some RNG in the background saying....nope today you miss.

This isnt Table top, if your after Battletech go play Megamek where the RNG can play as it pleases. This however is Mechwarrior (key aspect Mechwarrior is the pilot not a number table and dice).

Edited by DV^McKenna, 16 November 2011 - 08:02 AM.

[Ogryn]

Alright, I'll bite in a civilized manner. How about a specific example. WoT. Aiming reticle. You're bloody right that player skill and aiming has an effect. But it isn't the be all end all. The RNG affects your play there. Dead gunner, damaged gun, or even shooting on the move at 55kph cross country... you aren't going to hit jack. Or if you do, you're not likely to hit the optimum spot by anything more than blind chance. But slow down, aim, wait for the shot/time to be right. You can't always put your rounds through the drivers hatch at 400m. But you can at least hit the hull as opposed to the invulnerable turret face.

There seems to be a misunderstanding in your post, Mr. McKenna. I don't want the TT faithfully replicated in 3d. I want a new Mechwarrior. But I don't want the miserable excuse for an online arena that was brought about by MW4. And in my opinion the largest reason it turned into a circlestrafe popup game was the pinpoint accuracy of the weapons. There were not enough factors in the game to make it difficult to take a shot. To me, the issues of the old online arena will be further exacerbated by a persistent online setting. Especially with progression, stats and potential progression tied into it.

I don't really care how they go about implementing the difference. A shot cone is simply the first, surface detail easiest method to me. Other methods including weapon accuracy numbers, tarcomp accuracy, or even heavy spread from reticule movement due to mech movement would all more or less accomplish the same feat with different window dressings.

I will not pay, or play, a game that continues to bring forward the pixel perfect accuracy method in the MW/BT universe. If this means that I unfortunately won't be playing MWO, fine. I'll be disappointed, but I'll move on. Until we have a beta and some playtime in it, this is all speculation. Which is fine... we might be able to stop the dev team from making mistakes. Gold rounds, anyone?

[KingCobra]

This is why these thread's always =Fail 90% of the conversation is about boating energy&missle boats when in truth its the Ballistic boats in assault configs the are the abusers in the PC game series.So i dont want a alpha strike period that way no weapons from any group could boat.Just take a Bloodasp and load it up with 8uac2's and see what happens or a gladiator with 3guass and some uac2 its madness so lets not just go hey lets nerf the missles and energy weapons.It need to be balanced for all weapons types not to boat and a no alpha strike combined with only 2-3 weapons per weapons group with a 6-8 sec delay between firing selected groups would be fine and if the players did keep firing groups the damages to them would be grave and the damage would be more realistic and promote longer game play and stratagy to the whole playing group .

[Jon Vekken]

and figure into the game that if you get hit, or even lose the mech in battle, you should be down that mech until you can repair it, or even replace it.

Go ahead and boat. I'll run up and pepper you until you die. then I'll salvage your mech so I can repair any damage you might have caused me (which is going to be minimal). it's hard to hit a moving target. Very hard.