437 replies to this topic

[Tiercel]

Alpha strikes are powerful, but I would not say they are game damaging. There were never the most accurate of attacks.

As for boats..

They exist in "lore" and for a good reason, its only natural to expect military organisations to design mechs to suit their mode of war at that time.
They all have their flaws.
Missile and ballistic mechs are expencive to upkeep, and in the long term are a nightmare for logistics.
Energy mechs have heat and weapon cycling issues.

I used to love getting inside a "long range" energy/missile boats range and watching as they either waste ammo or kill themselves with heat trying to hit something they could not target

[Togg Bott]

ok, i realize that this is originally a old thread. but correct me if i'm wrong. AS with lasers isnt really going to be a problem as the devs have stated lasers are a OVER TIME weapon. meaning if someone is moving, prolly both, then the damage will be spread out over a large area. not sure if PPC's will behave in a simular fashion or not and its hard to put multiple ballistic weapons on anything except the largest. missles already spread shot so i really cant see a reason for worry.

also, would be nice if heat management followed BT rules precisely. ie, explosions/meltdowns being possible instead of a simple shutdown.

i remember my first AS. yes, i killed the enemy mech, he died aprox. 2.5 secs before i exploded.

[Gabriyel]

So here's a question, didn't the devs just post an entry about how weapons will function? I.E. Lasers/Pulse Lasers? Combine that with what they said regarding arms tracking to pinpoint on a singular location and I doubt an ER Large laser boat will be anywhere near as effective as previous games without the pinpoint accuracy they've previously enjoyed.

This is also a game, not a board game or novel. I don't think this is a problem, smart players will be breaking up their weapon groups anyways and mechs should have typical hard points limited by their design specs. I.E. A Catapult/Vulture will probably be a missile boat with some energy armament regardless instead of an all out missile boat. Ammo explodes or you run out, launchers get shot off etc... Go ahead and make an all missile boat but alpha strikes will probably shut you down and what do you do if your ammo all cooks off? I think the game design will limit these problems nicely.

Override and alpha strikes should be in the game period imho. If a player wants to overheat and cook off his ammo or blow his mech, that's their suicidal prerogative. If for example I'm about to die anyways and my heat is high in a brawling situation with a very weakened almost dead opponent, chances are I would risk an alpha strike. I either die cause internals/armor is gone and opponent lives or take a chance at finishing them off, and if not then my mech goes critical and the explosion finishes them off anyways or so reduces their ability to continue the fight that my team isn't put out by my death/destruction.

[Rhinehart]

Simple answer. Let the Devs make the game. Play the game. If you don't like what someone is doing with their loadout, develop tactics to counter it. Don't rely on patches or fixes to solve issues or percieved inequalities. Rather solve them where they should be solved, on the battlefield.

To use a paraphrase from Star Trek TNG

Commander William Riker-"What's the Zakdorn word for Mismatch?"

Zakdorn Master Stratagist Sirma Kolrami-"Challenge. We do not whine about the inequities of Life."

Edited by Rhinehart, 23 March 2012 - 03:45 PM.

[Long Draw]

Okay, I have a solution that hopefully all can agree on concerning an Alpha Strike feature being in the game.

Okay, so lets say that someone like myself who absolutely loves using a "laserboat" loaded with Clan ER PPC's and Clan Double Heatsinks fields my mech in an area that ideally has water that is at least waist deep if not deep enough to submerge my assault mech. Now, I'm using a combination of light amplification, passive radar and lets say even a command module to link my lance's battlefield data so I can command my lance and act as a sniper to "remove" extreme threats to mission success. So assume for the moment that I've got myself submerged below the water line and I've got 12 of those PPC's and as many Double HS's as I can fit on my chassis and I've got my weapons linked into one grouping so I can Alpha Strike easily.

So I receive telemetry on an opposing Assualt mech in the field and it comes into my LOS (line of sight) as it passes over the top of a hill or nearby mountain. So I line up my shot with one of his legs and perform the alpha strike. My shot hits true and his leg now is severely damaged or percentage-wise, probably 60% damaged. The enemy pilot can still use the leg and probably only lost 10-20% mobility. So relatively unaffected when it comes to performance of the enemy mech. However, due to my use of 12 Clan ER PPC's all at the same time, my heat is going to sky rocket to nearly the point that would cause my reactor to detonate from a heat breach. But because I'm submerged in water, the heat from the weapons fire is dissipated much more rapidly saving me from normally certain death.

Now, I may still be alive and kicking, but my mech should certainly be expected to not only initiate auto-shutdown to prevent systems failures from critical heat buildup, but also my mech should have experienced a severe power drain system-wide. After all, that is A LOT OF POWER to channel all at once. Not only that, but also this should have resulted in overloaded power circuit pathways that are now have their ability to channel power to various (I say various because this should be random and NOT just to high energy systems like weapons and drive systems) systems reduced until repairs can be made.

Additionally, the command computer controlling the mech's functionality should be forced to go into a sort of "protected mode" where it lowers its operating capability to an absolute minimum to prevent damage caused by excessive heat buildup and power supply instability caused by the power drain and damage to power pathways throughout the mech.

With each successive alpha strike, this damage would get progressively AND EXPONENTIALLY worse until the mech suffers a total systems failure and one of the following takes place:

1. Reactor goes critical and nuclear detonation takes place destroying mech.
2. Command computer suffers critical failure and reactor goes critical destroying mech from unregulated power production.
3. Command computer suffers critical failure and support systems fail causing pilot to die from heat/radiation/suffocation.
4. Command computer suffers critical failure resulting in mech shutting down permanently. *Pilot has chance to survive this*
5. Command computer suffers critical failure resulting in either drive system or weapon control system, or both to go permanently offline.
6. Power distribution network suffers critical failure resulting in one or more limbs and/or primary control systems (ie. drive, weapons, life support) to go offline. Depending on extent of damage and ability to get to mobile repair bay, this damage "may" be able to be bypassed temporarily. Severely reduced functionality in damaged and undamaged systems due to bypass.
7. Reactor suffers severe damage and is unable to initiate the startup sequence. Mech is disabled until another mech provides power transfer to restart reactor powerup. Severely reduced power production capability due to reactor damage.
8. Power surge through power pathways causes one or more weapons to overload during charging or firing resulting in disabling of weapon(s) until repairs are made off-field.
9. Command computer overheats and HUD goes dark. Mech systems still operate, but no mech or battlefield information is relayed to mech pilot other than what can be seen, heard or felt directly by pilot while inside of mech. Mech communications also fail meaning non-standard communications would need be used such as flares to direct lance.
10. Command computer overheats and battle computer functionality is reduced. AMS (Anti-Missle System), BAP (Beagle Active Probe) and other combat modules become inoperative until repairs off-field can be performed.

[guardian wolf]

Uhhh.... dude, with 12 PPCs, (which how in the hell did you even manage that number, let alone, DOUBLE HEATSINKS?!?!) You would more then damage his leg, his leg, would be gone. And I would personally stagger those shots as 4 at a time is enough to core just about anybody.

[Steamroller Stig]

if this game has the MWLL or a modular mechlab system it wont be a problem and really problem is with lots of small weapons. just try an MW4 daishi with a dozen RAC2s it mows down an atlas in under a second at any range with little to no marksmanship required


The quad PPC fitting on the sunder nearly overheats your mech every time and this is with 24 heat sinks. you have to be a really good shot and be supported to make good use of this mech. and really 2 coordinated Uziels is better in every way.

Edited by Steamroller Stig, 26 March 2012 - 08:54 AM.

[guardian wolf]

Steamroller Stig, on 26 March 2012 - 08:47 AM, said:

if this game has the MWLL or a modular mechlab system it wont be a problem and really problem is with lots of small weapons. just try an MW4 daishi with a dozen RAC2s it mows down an atlas in under a second at any range with little to no marksmanship required


The quad PPC fitting on the sunder nearly overheats your mech every time and this is with 24 heat sinks. you have to be a really good shot and be supported to make good use of this mech. and really 2 coordinated Uziels is better in every way.

I hope you mean UACs, as the RACs weigh nearly twice as much.

[Steamroller Stig]

guardian wolf, on 26 March 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

I hope you mean UACs, as the RACs weigh nearly twice as much.

it just dosen't matter yes UACs take up less space, have more range, weigh less, and has more ammo. but the RAC2 sounds cooler and whether you have nothing but RACs or UACs a daishi with nothing but those will lay waist to any mech in the game in under a second. seriously if you still have MW4 try it.

or even better instant action + beach fight + 8 daishies with nothing be RAC2s = hilarity as the clanners come over the hill.

[guardian wolf]

Yes I know, there is also a glitch on it as well, if you go alone, only Thastus will engage you, so you can destroy her teammates at will, then kill her. Course, I always fought her first, then killed her teammates, on Elite mind you, like a boss.

[Fanno Schifo]

Apha should be a "desperate" resource.
I like both risks and "prevent coring" options.
If u can aim only with a primary weapon (group of the same), with all the others firing point blank it could have some sense to use aplhas only when situation is close and very personal.
More, after one of those, mech complete shutdown and cooling has to be a 100% chance, no matter weapons and general loadout.

Edited by Gualty, 26 March 2012 - 01:58 PM.

[GratuitousLurking]

Alpha Stikes without focus aren't gonna do much, between changes that devs have discussed allready (Lasers not being instant damage, missiles requiring manual tracking, etc.) will help dissuade boating energy weps at the very least, except for mechs that can handle it. And as the game is working on a credit system, ammo I'm sure won't just magically refill every battle either, dissuading ballistic/missile alphas. Furthermore, over-specing a mech in such a rediculous degree (say, mounting every weapon rack on a Catapult with SRMs and trying to act as some sort of missile-laden shotgun) is probably going to put the pilot in danger, as vets will reconize the boat and act accordianly (aka blowing said boat to bits.) Sure, some combos (like AC20 boats) are gonna be pretty nasty in certain enviroments (city anyone?) but still, I don't see boats being a major issue, and the Alpha Strike shouldn't be cut out just to penalize the 9001 geniuses who see the mechlab and go 'yaknow, maybe it would work if I lobbed on all of THESE onto my mech...', as some mechs rely on alphas (usually canon boats!)

[Lancehead]

Before we rail even even more about Alpha Strikes, here is something to think about.

Certain powerful weapons, when mounted in the arms, disallow the use of lower arm actuators. Weapons such as Gauss Rifles are prime examples. Certain Mechs, such as the Masakari, canonically do not come with lower arm actuators.

We are going to have separate reticles for the arms and torso. Alpha Strikes require that these converge for maximum effectiveness. In the case of missing lower arm actuators, the arm reticles cannot converge.

So Alpha Strikes are immediately nerfed. Meaning a Rifleman or a Masakari cannot Alpha Strike effectively. An Awesome, on the other hand...

[MaddMaxx]

Quote

"In the case of missing lower arm actuators, the arm reticules cannot converge."

If you are referring to having more than 1 Laser in an arm mount, then it is possible to converge them. Assuming that even Torso mounted Lasers (very similar housing type) can be converged, why would arm mounted Lasers not be allowed?

Given the space between any 2 lasers, say 12 inches (more than probable) a defection angle of less than point .25 degrees would be need to converge those Beams at some point in space. The farther out the target, the less deflection required to converge said Lasers.

As I said. If the Torso mounts can do it, the arms can as well despite actuators installed.

[Lancehead]

I was referring to things like PPCs and Gauss Rifles. These prevent the use of lower arm actuators, in the case of PPCs it applies to OmniMechs.

And by converging, I mean the arm swinging such that the arm and torso reticles meet. This has to be done for Alpha Striking to be effective.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Still have the shoulder and upper arm actualtors (ie elbow) means that the Weapon(s) making up the lower arm can converge just fine. Wont need to worry about Clan mechs for another year yet.

[WithSilentWings]

I think the best solution will be this:

There's a mech, lets say an Atlas. The Atlas has 5 variants (for arguments sake). Each one has it's own pre-built weapons and the chassis is built to support and use those weapons.

Because of this, the weapons can only be replaced with similar weapon types. For example, Atlas A may have a PPC in the left arm, and so the left arm of this variant has (again for arguments sake) 3 criticals that can be used for energy type weapons.

Atlas B may have a gauss rifle on the left arm, and so the Atlas B may have 6 criticals that can be used for ballistic type weapons.

If every Atlas version has missile launchers in the torso, you will never be able to put an energy or ballistic weapon in place of the missile criticals, and so if you choose to customize any atlas you always need to live with the fact that you either won't max out your weapon load or you will NEED to take missiles.

This will allow some fine-tuning and tweaking of the variants. Unfortunately, there will be abuse and once things play out we will start to see which variants can be abused the most--hopefully rather than imposing stricter rules game-wide they will simply remove some functionality from the customization of that particular variant or in extreme cases remove the variant and refund C-bills