437 replies to this topic

[Kudzu]

Frantic Pryde, on 18 November 2011 - 10:49 PM, said:

I think heat, recycle time, weapon damage etc. Need to be left alone. These are things that translate very well from the TT game and just lead to trouble when messed with (mw4).

I don't like the cone of fire, pinpoint is fine except for the fact that a hunchback 4P is going to be able to 1 shot roughly 90% of the mechs in the game when all those guns are linked which is just beyond silly.

I really like the idea that some one mentioned about weapons taking time to align and basically "lock on" for pinpoint accuracy. You can do a lot of cool stuff with that. Maybe make it take a longer time the more weapons you have linked up for something...so that 4p could pull off that epic one shot kill but it would be close to impossible to track the target long enough to get every med laser fixed on the point.

Just to clarify, you could still fire before the weapon locked, but then you would have a cone of fire type effect.

Actually, CoF has that built in. If you aren't moving + aren't high on heat + in a good range for your weapon the cone would be rather small, it only expands out as you decide to move (and at what rate-- full out is going to be bigger than 40%) or gain heat/take sensor damage.

[Draco Argentum]

Frantic Pryde, on 18 November 2011 - 10:49 PM, said:

I think heat, recycle time, weapon damage etc. Need to be left alone. These are things that translate very well from the TT game and just lead to trouble when messed with (mw4).

I thought all of the TT weapons fired once per 10 second turn. Therefore recycle time doesn't translate at all unless you think people will fine small weapons firing as slow as their big brothers satisfying.

[Frantic Pryde]

Draco Argentum, on 18 November 2011 - 10:59 PM, said:

I thought all of the TT weapons fired once per 10 second turn. Therefore recycle time doesn't translate at all unless you think people will fine small weapons firing as slow as their big brothers satisfying.

Yes, if your at just the standard TT rules. The Solaris IIv rules and some other canon sources go into more detail on some of those things.

[Frantic Pryde]

Kudzu, on 18 November 2011 - 10:53 PM, said:

Actually, CoF has that built in. If you aren't moving + aren't high on heat + in a good range for your weapon the cone would be rather small, it only expands out as you decide to move (and at what rate-- full out is going to be bigger than 40%) or gain heat/take sensor damage.

I get that, and while I would be ok with that, it's still not my preference.

What I'm really talking about here is not something radom, but actual coding of how the targeting computers would work built into game.

So, a virtual computer for your virtual mech that needs to constantly re-adjust your weapons as you pilot your mech and track your targets and the more factors you throw at it the longer it takes to align itself.

So if you jumping through the air while targeting a fire moth at full sprint and the computer has 12 medium lasers to line up on that point it's going to make for a very difficult shot.

Now, if I understand my own logic correctly (lol..it's late ok!) what's cool about something like this is that since it's not random, you can sort of get used to that on a specific mech you pilot frequently and learn just the right time/spot to fire in order to get at least most of your shots to land where you want them.

Edit: I forgot to mention, I'm not super up to date on what can be done with game engines these days so maybe this is all over the top...but I still think it's cool

Edited by Frantic Pryde, 18 November 2011 - 11:17 PM.

[Lasercat]

Riptor, on 18 November 2011 - 10:14 PM, said:

Each weapon in counterstrike has a certain bullet spread. Atleast the automatic ones. But try firing a sniper rifle on the move and youll see that its not really pinpoint either.

Yes exactly. The spread not being arbitrary is what I was trying to get across.

[Creel]

Frantic Pryde, on 18 November 2011 - 11:15 PM, said:

I get that, and while I would be ok with that, it's still not my preference.

What I'm really talking about here is not something radom, but actual coding of how the targeting computers would work built into game.

So, a virtual computer for your virtual mech that needs to constantly re-adjust your weapons as you pilot your mech and track your targets and the more factors you throw at it the longer it takes to align itself.

So if you jumping through the air while targeting a fire moth at full sprint and the computer has 12 medium lasers to line up on that point it's going to make for a very difficult shot.

Now, if I understand my own logic correctly (lol..it's late ok!) what's cool about something like this is that since it's not random, you can sort of get used to that on a specific mech you pilot frequently and learn just the right time/spot to fire in order to get at least most of your shots to land where you want them.

Edit: I forgot to mention, I'm not super up to date on what can be done with game engines these days so maybe this is all over the top...but I still think it's cool

you'd be surprised what the engine is capable of, however it increases the load on the devs tremendously and I think there are other things that I'd rather have them focus on.

[Kudzu]

Frantic Pryde, on 18 November 2011 - 11:15 PM, said:

I get that, and while I would be ok with that, it's still not my preference.

What I'm really talking about here is not something radom, but actual coding of how the targeting computers would work built into game.

So, a virtual computer for your virtual mech that needs to constantly re-adjust your weapons as you pilot your mech and track your targets and the more factors you throw at it the longer it takes to align itself.

So if you jumping through the air while targeting a fire moth at full sprint and the computer has 12 medium lasers to line up on that point it's going to make for a very difficult shot.

Now, if I understand my own logic correctly (lol..it's late ok!) what's cool about something like this is that since it's not random, you can sort of get used to that on a specific mech you pilot frequently and learn just the right time/spot to fire in order to get at least most of your shots to land where you want them.

Edit: I forgot to mention, I'm not super up to date on what can be done with game engines these days so maybe this is all over the top...but I still think it's cool

You actually just described center weighted expanding reticule cone of fire without using the term, because that's what it represents-- the t-comp taking longer to adjust down and accurately hit the target based on your actions.

[Frantic Pryde]

Well in that case I guess I'm for that sort of cone of fire! Lol

So I guess I didn't really understand the cof thing. As long as it's implemented that way I'm ok with it. Because then it's still about the pilots skills and not a roll of the dice.

Word

[Jervinator]

TL:DR

There are three main types of "boats":

1) Those that carry small amounts of ammo and run dry in prolonged battles (Hunchback IIc)
While they may be deadly in a duel, they will lose in an actual battle.

2) Those that generate enough heat that an Alpha Strike means instant shutdown (Nova Prime)
If you consider a mech that spends half it's life "taking a nap", you need to work on your timing.

3) Those that do little enough damage on an Alpha Strike that it's not really an issue. (Locust)
If you feel threatened by being hit by two MGs and a Medium Laser at the same time, you have other issues.

[Saranpaa]

MagnusEffect, on 14 November 2011 - 09:21 PM, said:

Forgot a rather obvious solution (thank you guys). Added the "remove AS option".

Vote which option you think best addresses the nasty "Alpha Striking Boat of Lameness".

(Somewhat biased) NOTE: Alpha Strikes in their previous forms have always seemed to benefit "boats" the most. For those not in the know: a "boat" is a mech fitted only with multiples of the same weapon (laser boats & missile boats being the biggest offenders). A player simply had to fit as many of the same weapon, with the same range, move to that optimal range, sit, and fire. In reality (in canon) this seldom was a good idea; mechs were usually fitted with a mix of different weapons to handle different enemies & situations (big guns for mechs, smaller stuff for lighter targets, machine guns for infantry, flamers for burning stuff, etc.)

The toll an alpha strike takes on mechs firing them has been incredibly downplayed in every previous MW game, especially in larger mechs. Mech electrical and mechanical systems are VERY complicated things. In the IS, they are also commonly hundreds of years old. An alpha strike triggers a MASSIVE surge of energy through all systems. All the heatsinks in the world won't IMMEDIATELY disperse that much heat. The more weapons involved in an alpha strike, the more likely something is going to break or cause unbearable heat. In canon, they have been reserved for acts of desperation or a final all-or-nothing killing blow. Alpha strikes should NOT be a primary method of attack.

To be honest, I always thought boating was kind of boring. However, it became a thing of necessity in many instances. I thought I would come up with some different solutions to solve this "saminess" that previous MW titles all seemed to suffer. Wanted to let you guys vote on them. Let me know if you can think of another good idea I should add.

Perhaps the best solution is *some combination* of the above?

Just leave the alpha system and boating as it is. Make the making of the modifications costly and difficult (as they are in the canon).

The original game mechanics (boardgame) allowed the making of the boats but the lost versatility of those mechs outweighted the gains received from doing so.

And isnt the MW:O supposed to have more complex terrains etc. to make the game more realistic? That should ease the pains of the normal gamers vs. the missile boats.

[Halfinax]

Saranpää, on 19 November 2011 - 12:02 AM, said:

Just leave the alpha system and boating as it is. Make the making of the modifications costly and difficult (as they are in the canon).

The original game mechanics (boardgame) allowed the making of the boats but the lost versatility of those mechs outweighted the gains received from doing so.

And isnt the MW:O supposed to have more complex terrains etc. to make the game more realistic? That should ease the pains of the normal gamers vs. the missile boats.

Add in an abstraction appropriate for sim based gameplay of the Battle Value system and regardless of customization we should see relatively balanced and fair game play when it is intended to be as such.

[zudukai]

recoil skew, and the more powerful the weapon or knock it gives should make you recoil more.
more weapons in the group the more it turns your torso and kicks your mech, like chromehounds.

IMO cone of fire could only apply beyond the weapons optimal range, divergence and drop/bleed should vary alot depending on the caliber/type of the weapon used and how they are grouped.

AC2s should have little recoil and high drop at extended ranges, maybe BVR whereas;

AC10s would have noticeable (but compensatable and always compounding) recoil and less drop till long range, then it drops rather quickly because of it's diminished mass and velocity(damage should also be down somewhat). [two AC10s in both arms would be more manageable then a single AC20 in one arm.]

PPCs should fire far quickly then other weapons with the exclusion of lasers, and disperse at a point - while still being there - it would taper off quickly as it got to that range. [IS effective range 800~850 DMG12 maximum range ~900 DMG8~9 / ER effective 900~950 DMG15 maximum ~1000 DMG9~10]

E.T.C.

[Melissia]

Wait, what's wrong with "missile boats" ? I like catapults. They're excellent fire support 'mechs.

Edited by Melissia, 19 November 2011 - 05:28 AM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Longbows are even better 70 missiles downrange at once with Artemis IV and or NARC can spoil even an Atlas's day.

[Black Sunder]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 19 November 2011 - 05:33 AM, said:

Longbows are even better 70 missiles downrange at once with Artemis IV and or NARC can spoil even an Atlas's day.

You forgot about Arrow IV equipped Catapults.

[Saranpaa]

Melissia, on 19 November 2011 - 05:28 AM, said:

Wait, what's wrong with "missile boats" ? I like catapults. They're excellent fire support 'mechs.

By missile boats i ment the self-modified Atlases etc. with zillion LRM20 batteries. (which we all remember from MW3 multiplayer)

The canon stuff is well balanced as it is.

[wanderer]

There's a few other things that come straight from the TT game that'd help here too.

One is the expanded heat scale- normally, it goes from 0 to 30. Instead, you have 0 to 50...and that means higher chances of shutdown, ammo explosion, and adds in chances of pilot damage and outright systems failure (read: random critical hits to the 'Mech).

Pilot damage could simply render the 'Mech less accurate (larger cone-of-fire, slower aiming, etc), systems failure is self-explanatory.

In addition, high heat levels had the chance each turn of reducing the 'Mechs cooling rate till it was repaired- which means energy-based alpha babies were prone to slower and slower recovery times each time they did so.

Finally, add in Inferno rounds. If I catch you popping off enough lasers to shut down, I want to be able to douse you in napalm and watch you cook like you stuck your 'Mech in a microwave and turned it to high.

[Melissia]

Oh yes, I really hope that the game has SRM inferno rounds. I want to use those on my Raven if I can... that'll really help it do hit and run attacks.

[MaddMaxx]

Saranpää, on 19 November 2011 - 08:49 AM, said:

By missile boats i meant the self-modified Atlases etc. with zillion LRM20 batteries. (which we all remember from MW3 multiplayer)

The canon stuff is well balanced as it is.

That is easily solved by using a Minimum Lock-On range on Long range Missiles. That is why they made Short range (Streak) missiles right? If you want hard hitting missiles that don't require Lock times, they also make dumb fired Medium range and Short range versions as well.

[Fiachdubh]

I have to admit I made good use of the 7 med laser Flashman and Thor/Loki LBX boat alpha strikes in the past.
However it might be an idea to go with the fiction this time. While each Inner Sphere mech had a couple of variants to choose from the Clan omni mechs had the advantage of being more easily customisable. However even then only some weapons on an omni where interchangable and only certain types of weapons could be fitted in that weapon slot. I would rather see this system than the old MW2 one where you could slap any weapon onto any limb/head/torso of any mech constrained only by the number of empty slots and weight.

I dont think the alpha itself is a problem, it is part of the Battletech universe. Restricted mech customization and a well implamented heat system will prevent abuse of the alpha strike.