172 replies to this topic

[Jman5]

Roadkill, on 30 January 2014 - 02:42 PM, said:

Why?

Why is a random death by headshot to arty or airstrike any different than a random death to an ammo explosion or Gauss Rifle explosion? Or, for that matter, all of the random critical hits that occur in the game?

There's a ton of randomness in the game. It's not new with artillery and airstrikes. Even headshot deaths to direct fire are more randomness than anything else. I get headshot kills somewhat regularly, but I'm never actually aiming for the head when it happens. It just happens now and then.

In my opinion one of the key differences between artillery headshots, regular headshots and ammo explosion is that you can build to mitigate or compensate for ammo explosions and random headshots in the mechlab. You can't really do that for artillery headshots. I can equip a standard engine and a CASE to reduce the impact an RNG ammo explosion can have. I adjust my head armor to be at 16/18 precisely because it gives me 1 hitpoint left on the off chance I get cockpitted by a 30 point alpha. With artilly/airstrike headshots, I don't think you can really do much in the mechlab to compensate aside from switching mechs entirely.

On another note, I think it happens so rarely that it isn't a big deal to me if I can't 1-shot KO people with the arty anymore. That's not why I think artillery/airstrike are strong consumables. I think they are strong because they soft-counter entrenched static defense. As long as that role remains strong I'm fine giving up the rare arty headshot-kill.

[wanderer]

Really, artillery for me is like lobbing a grenade in Counterstrike.

Brief AoE damage, sometimes you got lucky and boom, your target died from a head hit. One thing I've noticed is you seem to have to be at ground zero (that is, on or right near the smoke) to really suffer head hits. My "killshots" with arty are usually on snipers zoomed in on others while I dropped arty smoke at their feet, assuring direct hits.

Shells also seem to have a narrow arc "incoming" from the direction the arty request was made. Being turned away from there also seems to reduce "high" centerline hits and end up with more damage to the side arm/torso instead.

[WarHippy]

Deathlike, on 30 January 2014 - 03:03 PM, said:

When it's a direct hit to the head, it's gg close. Most of the time, it's of the "legs and torso" variety, which I'm fine with. I have been on the receiving end just as much as on the giving end. Yes, it's rare, but not something I look forward to. It's only worse with other mech cockpits which increase the chances of it (which is another related problem).

I feel like you misunderstood my question. Would it ever be ok to die to an artillery strike that hit your head? If you drop some of your armor off the cockpit, or took some damage from glancing blows and then took a hit to the head would it be ok to kill you? If damage was lowered to 30 instead of 40 so that a direct hit wouldn't kill you would you again want the mechanic changed if you took the direct hit and then died to splash damage from one of the other shells finishing off your cockpit a split second later? Where exactly is the line drawn? Should we allow artillery to damage the cockpit at all, or just allow it to do damage but never be able to finish you off?

Deathlike, on 30 January 2014 - 03:03 PM, said:

I don't know how an IMMEDIATE audio cue by Betty FOLLOWED by an indicator on the minimap for the anticipated location is not foolproof.

I don't know either, but some people are pretty oblivious unless you slap them upside the head. However, I would say it should be an audio indicator, or an indicator on the minimap not both. Unless you want a very small window for escape that would allow you only enough time to look down to protect your cockpit, and then sure, you can have both indicators.

[Corvus Antaka]

I run my spider with 2 head armour. an arty headshot will instantly kill me.

on other mechs where I do have full head armour I have not died in 1 shot to an arty iirc. my head has been pushed to red though.

an "arty/airstrike warning if smoke is detected within 50m in example isnt a bad idea maybe. slow mechs cant really get away from arty anyhow, vs fast mechs that quickly can.

imho the big problem is that arty combined with jumpjets again makes for easy targetting. with the current highlander meta the arty and the blob it's rather humourous - rather than breaking up the blob its simply added more firepower to each blob.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 30 January 2014 - 03:49 PM.

[Deathlike]

WarHippy, on 30 January 2014 - 03:34 PM, said:

I feel like you misunderstood my question. Would it ever be ok to die to an artillery strike that hit your head? If you drop some of your armor off the cockpit, or took some damage from glancing blows and then took a hit to the head would it be ok to kill you? If damage was lowered to 30 instead of 40 so that a direct hit wouldn't kill you would you again want the mechanic changed if you took the direct hit and then died to splash damage from one of the other shells finishing off your cockpit a split second later? Where exactly is the line drawn? Should we allow artillery to damage the cockpit at all, or just allow it to do damage but never be able to finish you off?

If there was enough armor shaved from my head due to enemy fire or by personal build, I do not have a problem with that. The idea that perfectly untouched undamaged full head armor can still be one-shot cockpitted by arty/airstrike is just wrong outright.

I don't want to go through history, but I guess it's an unfortunate opportunity to go back in time when lurmaggeddon happened when the Jagermech was released. Mechs like the Atlas, Catapult, AND the newly released Jager was fully headshotted by LRMS pretty easily like nothing ever before. Now, obviously a lot of changes came from that.. including "removal of splash damage", but more importantly "reduced damage from missile damage to the head". Imagine that... a mechanic that explicity counters that oddball nature of the LRMs at the time to seek your head and destroy it mercilessly despite having full head armor from the beginning. I'm not saying we must nerf arty/airstrikes altogether, but there is a literal balance issue that has to be dealt with, and as much as headshots are simply not the thing you accomplish every day, you do not want to make it easier by punishing every mech that is pro-arty/airstrike cockpit prone. That's just not how game balance should ever be handled.

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I don't know either, but some people are pretty oblivious unless you slap them upside the head. However, I would say it should be an audio indicator, or an indicator on the minimap not both. Unless you want a very small window for escape that would allow you only enough time to look down to protect your cockpit, and then sure, you can have both indicators.

It has to be both. For instance, the UAV is a very powerful tool as you know... but the thing about it is that newbies (or missile boaters in general) don't really look for the icon. Same thing tends to occur with TAG or NARC in their current state. Even if you don't have a missile boat, people don't seem to recognize, let alone use that provided intel to push or whatever tactical thing that needs to be done. If anything, I'm almost sure a fair chunk people don't even know what it is or that it even exists. That's a problem. It also doesn't help that tutorials are non-existent for this, but I think I've said that enough times that PGI will only get one more of these done by 2015.

Edited by Deathlike, 30 January 2014 - 03:52 PM.

[Roadkill]

Deathlike, on 30 January 2014 - 03:03 PM, said:

Well, that's my fault when it still goes off.

Arties and airstrikes... it's not the same.

It feels the same to me.

I get random headshot kills with an AC/20+2 PPC build. That's no different than a random headshot from an artillery strike. The dead guy had just as much control over either possibility, which is to say essentially none. It's random.

And it is still your fault when you get headshot by artillery - don't stand still! If you're just milling around in a ravine with 11 of your closest Mech buddies... guess what? You're going to get hit by artillery. I don't need to see the smoke to know it's coming, either.

If you're moving around constantly you won't get hit by artillery because it will have to be dropped in front of you to have any chance, and then you'll see the smoke.

I dunno... it seems to me that artillery and the random chance to get headshot by it is an excellent counter to jump snipers and hill humpers. Keep moving and you'll rarely ever get hit by artillery.

[Deathlike]

Roadkill, on 30 January 2014 - 04:27 PM, said:

It feels the same to me.

I get random headshot kills with an AC/20+2 PPC build. That's no different than a random headshot from an artillery strike. The dead guy had just as much control over either possibility, which is to say essentially none. It's random.

There's still skill in making the shot, however random it is (especially with the issues with HSR and the netcode). Although, the one button random arty/airstrike headshot kill is better?

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And it is still your fault when you get headshot by artillery - don't stand still! If you're just milling around in a ravine with 11 of your closest Mech buddies... guess what? You're going to get hit by artillery. I don't need to see the smoke to know it's coming, either.

If you're moving around constantly you won't get hit by artillery because it will have to be dropped in front of you to have any chance, and then you'll see the smoke.

The irony to that is that this tends to happen to walking mechs. You are making the general faulty assumption that everyone is just milling around, waiting for something to occur. That's not the case under reasonable circumstances (aka, your target isn't a complete newbie).

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I dunno... it seems to me that artillery and the random chance to get headshot by it is an excellent counter to jump snipers and hill humpers. Keep moving and you'll rarely ever get hit by artillery.

Ironically, EVERY jump sniper in the 12-man queues is carrying one. It's not a counter to jump snipers in that sense of your suggestion.

Edited by Deathlike, 30 January 2014 - 04:38 PM.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Yeah someone is out their shooting you but death can come at any time from any direction. Such is combat.

I Kinda want to see IED's in the game. you eject and go plant roadside bombs.

In the meantime please Nerf nothing. Not one thing.

[Doctor Proctor]

Just had a match where I, personally, had 3 arty strikes dropped on me. This is getting freaking ridiculous. I was in an Assault mech, so I try to move out of the way as best as I can, but I still got tagged by two of them. No module should be putting out 80 damage (at least, assuming only one of the bomblets actually hit me in each strike that damaged me) on a mech like that. How has this garbage not been addressed yet?

And for those saying "It's not OP", then what is your definition of OP? Is EVERY mech in 12 mans carrying it not a sigh that it's probably OP? It seeing 5-10 drop per match in solo PUG's not OP? Is the fact that mechs will drop one on a single target, just hoping that they'll get a kill shot to cockpit or blow a component off not OP? What would be OP then?

Edited by Doctor Proctor, 31 January 2014 - 07:16 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Deathlike, on 30 January 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

They have yet to fix the Gauss Rifle explosion message. Take that for what it's worth.



It doesn't sound like you've ever participated in a league that has no restrictions. These things start to matter. If the mechanism overall was better balanced, I really wouldn't be complaining. I've gotten use to it, but I feel bad for the occasional freebie kill because of its existence.

I didn't come to this game to be part f a bowling league. I came to battle the Clans and win a war for the Inner Sphere. That is the game I was promised. It is the game I signed up for. Solaris 7 is the games world, where combat is regulated and judged. On the field with the Clans, Sneaky tactics and massed fire power turned the tide. WHen CW comes I do hope it has the Game planet included, so the MechAthletes can play games. This is the game you are here for,

I am here for this:

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 31 January 2014 - 07:33 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mudhutwarrior, on 30 January 2014 - 04:49 PM, said:

Yeah someone is out their shooting you but death can come at any time from any direction. Such is combat.

I Kinda want to see IED's in the game. you eject and go plant roadside bombs.

In the meantime please Nerf nothing. Not one thing.

God this line of thinking is just so sexy! Good on you Sir!

[DocBach]

Mudhutwarrior, on 30 January 2014 - 04:49 PM, said:

Yeah someone is out their shooting you but death can come at any time from any direction. Such is combat.

I Kinda want to see IED's in the game. you eject and go plant roadside bombs.

In the meantime please Nerf nothing. Not one thing.

Closest thing to an ied would be FASCAM thunder lrms. Laying minefields with Lrm shots.

That said my 2 cents - artillery should need to be guided by tag or command console. Tag requires you hold your area of impact in the laser for the flight time or it will splash off somewhere else. Command console can pull up battle map and apply artillery from there.

[SI The Joker]

DocBach, on 31 January 2014 - 08:30 AM, said:

That said my 2 cents - artillery should need to be guided by tag or command console. Tag requires you hold your area of impact in the laser for the flight time or it will splash off somewhere else. Command console can pull up battle map and apply artillery from there.

This is a great idea! How about tag AND command console. One player needs to lay the tag... the guy(s) with the command console fires the artillery. As to not overpower it... make it lance based... the tag only works for the command console user(s) in your lance.

[Joseph Mallan]

DocBach, on 31 January 2014 - 08:30 AM, said:

Closest thing to an ied would be FASCAM thunder lrms. Laying minefields with Lrm shots.

That said my 2 cents - artillery should need to be guided by tag or command console. Tag requires you hold your area of impact in the laser for the flight time or it will splash off somewhere else. Command console can pull up battle map and apply artillery from there.

I would add to it that if the tether is lost the shot could "go wide". To m understanding we are not using Arrow 4 as of this writing.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 31 January 2014 - 08:55 AM.

[TygerLily]

I agree with the longer cooldown and the non-headshot thing...Damage is good since they are meaningful now.

Edited by TygerLily, 31 January 2014 - 09:05 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

TygerLily, on 31 January 2014 - 09:05 AM, said:

I agree with the longer cooldown and the non-headshot thing...Damage is good since they are meaningful now.

Longer cool down I could support, but I don't even use A/A and I don't want to see it turned non lethal!

[TygerLily]

Joseph Mallan, on 31 January 2014 - 09:08 AM, said:

Longer cool down I could support, but I don't even use A/A and I don't want to see it turned non lethal!

I think "non-lethal" is a misnomer; arty still does respectable damage...But I feel they should be used to crack people not kill them (unless they are already tore up)...remember when LRMs would headshot during LRM Apocalypse??

Headshots should be a reward for marksmanship and not luck...At the very least, lower the chance of a headshot with artillery/airstrikes.

Edited by TygerLily, 31 January 2014 - 09:15 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

TygerLily, on 31 January 2014 - 09:13 AM, said:

I think "non-lethal" is a misnomer. They should be used to crack people not kill them...remember when LRMs would headshot during LRM Apocalypse?? I think headshots should be a reward for marksmanship and not luck...They still do respectable damage...

Or at the very least, lower the chance of a headshot...

They did head cap to easy Tiger but that does not mean it should never happen. If we throw enough arty at you and you are hit by it correctly, you should die. Because it is thought to be Unfair is not he point. Artillery was a RNG weapon and so long as it is that way we need t be able t be killed by it. I killed Khan Ignotus once as he rounded a corner into my Gauss/ERPPC/3x SRM6 payload. shot his head right off by pure luck.

Arty deserves a chance to kill us just like LRMs or any other weapon.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 31 January 2014 - 09:21 AM.

[DocBach]

Joseph Mallan, on 31 January 2014 - 09:21 AM, said:

Arty deserves a chance to kill us just like LRMs or any other weapon.

Lrms actually do way less damage against the heads since very early closed beta

[TygerLily]

Joseph Mallan, on 31 January 2014 - 09:21 AM, said:

They did head cap to easy Tiger but that does not mean it should never happen. If we throw enough arty at you and you are hit by it correctly, you should die. Because it is thought to be Unfair is not he point. Artillery was a RNG weapon and so long as it is that way we need t be able t be killed by it. I killed Khan Ignotus once as he rounded a corner into my Gauss/ERPPC/3x SRM6 payload. shot his head right off by pure luck.

Arty deserves a chance to kill us just like LRMs or any other weapon.

I get you...I'd prefer never but I'd take a significantly lower chance.

I also feel like the lucky shot from a player is different than a lucky shot from the computer...if you accidentally snap shot a dude and kill him: nice! But a headshot from LRMs (as you agreed with) doesn't feel the same.

You also said, "we need t be able t be killed by it" which I don't argue with...but taking a mech from 100% to dead shouldn't happen by chance.