37 replies to this topic

[Marmon Rzohr]

Greetings mechwarriors

I wanted your opinion what what works best for you. Straight alpha damage or dps ?
In an ideal world you want as much of both as you can get (hence the 733C infestation ), but it's often a choice when outfitting or choosing a mech, especially a ballistic heavy one.

At what point do you think extra alpha damage is more valueable then DPS ?
Is 5 extra alpha damage worth -3 DPS etc.

With extra sustained DPS it's certainly much easier to get higher damage numbers, but how effective do you find it to be in actually winning ? (Is you win rate better on your 3xUAC5 Muromets or your AC40 or a PPC + Gauss sniper ?)

For instance, running PPC + Gauss rifle, I get the impression I "scare" the opposition better (people with armor segments in red tend to play more passively) or open up a priority target early. However, UACs and AC5s/2s are better for pushing out damage when you have to and cover/range isn't an issue like when a heavier enemy team is intent on rolling over yours.

P.S.:
12vs12 has it's own playstyle and alpha damage is often more desireable in 1vs1, this is a discussion about carrying PUGs.

Edited by Marmon Rzohr, 30 January 2014 - 12:27 PM.

[Josef Nader]

It's most heavily determined by the range of engagement. Long range builds need alpha to exploit snap shots and get damage in during the small windows they have a shot. DPS is more important to short range mechs, as it's hard to disengage once you're in the fight, so you need to burn down the other guy faster than he burns you.

[Funky Bacon]

I often run a sniper/support Cata-3D with two Gauss Rifles and 2 ER-PPC's.

Also sometimes run an Awesome-8Q with 2x L-Pulse and 5 Medium lasers.

Although I did love driving the 6x AC/2 Dakka mech back in the days before Ghost heat.

[Marmon Rzohr]

Josef Nader, on 30 January 2014 - 12:29 PM, said:

It's most heavily determined by the range of engagement. Long range builds need alpha to exploit snap shots and get damage in during the small windows they have a shot. DPS is more important to short range mechs, as it's hard to disengage once you're in the fight, so you need to burn down the other guy faster than he burns you.

That's very interesting as I've had a slightly different experience. I find that in brawls and close range the higher the shot damage, the better are your chances of killing the other mech while twisting/dodging etc, while big DPS works better at range where it's less likely you'll be shot back at while you're sitting unloading shells into the enemy, since you have to expose yourself the whole time you're firing.

It could also very likely be that the pressure of brawling makes me miss sustained shots because I've seen some players perform really well in such situations

Funky Bacon, on 30 January 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:

Although I did love driving the 6x AC/2 Dakka mech back in the days before Ghost heat.

Those things were simply glorious

Edited by Marmon Rzohr, 30 January 2014 - 12:40 PM.

[Rhaythe]

If you play for kill count, go with Alpha.

if you play for any other reason, really, go with DPS.

[IceCase88]

For me it all depends on the role I am choosing to play. I usually go for DPS in most mechs since I play short range. I think DPS really sneaks up on an adversary. They feel comfortable their armor is not taking too much initial damage so they engage but as the seconds go by their armor starts wearing away. When they finally realize they are in trouble it is too late. However, when I am running something like my BJ-1X I use a high alpha in a hit and fade role. Run up to the enemy with 8 MPLs or 8 MLs hit them with a high alpha to a CT or ST and then chainfire the lasers while I disengage. Alphaing is literally a hit or miss proposition and can leave you exposed if you are not heat efficient. Too much of a gamble.

[Revorn]

Personaly, i like the DPS Way at long Range. 2-3 AC2 are nice for this Job. imho.

But it is defined b my Role in Combat. I try to give supportive Fire from the Backlines, spott upcomming flanking Maneuers, susspress Snipers or try disturb advancments of the Enemy at specific Positions.It is surly not a Role which gives a big K/D.

Edited by Revorn, 30 January 2014 - 01:59 PM.

[levitas]

Go for a high alpha over DPS, but don't sacrifice your ability to sustain fire for a reasonable amount of time to get a high alpha.

Exposure time is one of the most important concepts in playing this game to win, and in order to minimize exposure time, you really need to use high alpha builds. You will die faster (and therefore do less damage in a game) if you sit out there for 10 seconds at 8DPS trying to kill that heavy than you will if you peek 2 or 3 times doing 30-40 per shot.

This is the reason why PPCs and ACs on assaults are so good right now. This is why poptarting is good. This is why high mounted hardpoints are important. This is why you either load up on weight and weapons and jump, or pilot something tiny and quick that can pull out of combat rapidly. This is why you always see teammates sitting next to hills and buildings.

If DPS were more viable than high alphas, we'd be playing a really boring game where cover either didn't exist or wasn't a factor for some reason or other. It'd be a game of "which team can focus down the enemy one at a time better", like now, except picking a target would be more arbitrary, as would your control over whether you're being picked.

TL;DR: exposure time is IMO the most important concept in the game, learn about it.

[Roland]

Alpha beats DPS, always, no matter the range. Even up close, you want high alpha strikes, because you want to hit the target, then twist to project yourself.

[Thejuggla]

Hard to compared dps to alpha especially "is 5 damage worth -3 dps" I'd say alpha is better in pretty much every case because you can twist if brawl range or cover/twist if sniping while weapon reloads.

[Prezimonto]

Roland, on 30 January 2014 - 05:06 PM, said:

Alpha beats DPS, always, no matter the range. Even up close, you want high alpha strikes, because you want to hit the target, then twist to project yourself.

The caveat to this are weapons like the ER PPC, where the sustained total damage is rarely enough to overcome dps. But mostly, I agree.

[Bagheera]

Roland, on 30 January 2014 - 05:06 PM, said:

Alpha beats DPS, always, no matter the range. Even up close, you want high alpha strikes, because you want to hit the target, then twist to project yourself.

This. DPS is most effective when you're not the center of attention, otherwise you want to hit, twist, hit, twist, repeat.

[Slepnir]

Roland, on 30 January 2014 - 05:06 PM, said:

Alpha beats DPS, always, no matter the range. Even up close, you want high alpha strikes, because you want to hit the target, then twist to project yourself.

Except when it doesn't. I've gone toe to toe with the high alpha builds-brawler atlas's, stalkers, PPC/AC victors, highlanders, boom jaggers I almost always win with my DPS jagger DD. the problems with high alpha and the reason I don't run them-XL engines, high heat, weapon recharge time. most people look at my DD and don't consider it a threat until they realize that if I get in under 200m I am effectively dropping an AC20 every second in their face and I do it with a standard engine that lets me do 80, nearly full armor and a 1.96 heat efficiency. once I start shooting I just hold the trigger down......oh and I can crack shot snipe with it at long range to. my average damage is about 700-800 a match with 4 kills......sure I would loose in a pure long range snipe duel but that's what speed and terrain are for.

[John MatriX82]

Roland, on 30 January 2014 - 05:06 PM, said:

Alpha beats DPS, always, no matter the range. Even up close, you want high alpha strikes, because you want to hit the target, then twist to project yourself.

And at all ranges you have the advantage of Alpha shot > get back into cover.

Any DPS build needs time to develop damage properly, which means you have to stay exposed and "wash" your target with your firepower. It's devastating, for sure, but only when you manage to find someone alone/in a flank without drawing attention. Do that when other 2 or 3 targets are looking at you and you're preatty dead on arrival.

[Josef Nader]

See, I know the secret to beating high alpha builds. The reason they're so powerful in PUGs is that people are timid, so the pop tart is allowed to do his thing with very little chance of retribution. However, if you pressure the pop tart, flank his cover, and ride him like a rented mule, his build is so hot and so slow to recharge you can burn him down in seconds.

[Joseph Mallan]

I play the Alpha game. I build around the idea ha I should be able to fire ALL my guns so long as they are in range. That I cannot build but a small selection of heat efficient payloads is sorts dumb from a combat perspective. An Army that is limited in its response to a threat is a losing force. My Jager40 is a dream crushing Mechs that have over heated. Used to be a wet dream, but ghost heat made a mess of that!

[Tahribator]

At the moment Alpha>DPS. Considering alpha is a one time pinpoint shot of course. In MWO you don't your enemy spreading your damage between his components and that is basically what DPS builds does, it weakens the enemy mech as a whole.

Still, in a team game DPS mechs are usually the softeners(AC boats, LRM flooders, LL snipers) while Alpha mechs are the finishers. Both are needed for a perfect team.

[Supersmacky]

For me (and granted, I am fairly new to the game), it really depends on the mech I am running and the range of engagement I want. Some mech just tend to lend themselves better to alphas. However, my lights tend to work better on DPS (where my speed and manueaverability act as cover for a close engagement. Granted, I favor lights and mediums over heavies and assaults. So, the lights and mediums infer their own style and damage delivery.

[Roland]

Slepnir, on 31 January 2014 - 12:55 AM, said:

Except when it doesn't.

Which is never.

Slepnir, on 31 January 2014 - 12:55 AM, said:

I've gone toe to toe with the high alpha builds-brawler atlas's, stalkers, PPC/AC victors, highlanders, boom jaggers I almost always win with my DPS jagger DD.

I suspect a lot of those pilots are just terrible. Those kinds of builds attract a lot of terrible players, because they see good players using them, and think that the mech will make them win.

Slepnir, on 31 January 2014 - 12:55 AM, said:

oh and I can crack shot snipe with it at long range to. my average damage is about 700-800 a match with 4 kills......

You're AVERAGING 4 kills with it? What are your stats with this mech, if you don't mind me asking? Averaging 4 kills would put you at a K/D of at least 6, most likely. I'm skeptical that you are achieving that with a DPS build.

Although I'm not sure what exactly you consider a DPS build, as you didn't post it up. What are you running? If it's something like 4 AC5's, I'd consider that an alpha build, just one that happens to crank out a decent alpha very quickly.

[Lightfoot]

It's all just DPS. AC2's out damage a Gauss Rifle and PPCs easily and there is no one shot kill in MWO, unless you destroy the cockpit, but this is hard too.

So it doesn't matter what I like or what my style is anymore. That all ended with Ghost Heat and the Gauss desync. Now I play what PGI allows to work.