62 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

So no... actually mediums are much.. much greater then lights in a one on one fight.

jenner > cicada. every cicada pilot knows that.

[Varent]

darkchylde, on 01 February 2014 - 03:51 PM, said:

I never said they weren't good at killing assault in mechwarrior online. The nature of lights are scouts not assault killers but in mechwarrior online they are capable of killing whatever they go against. Be it Light, medium, heavy, or assault, their biggest deterent is how many streaks the other mech has. The reason they are capable of doing this is because of pin point precision where they can use their speed to get behind a mech and core it.

The most effective light at doing this is the JR7-F with 6 energy hardpoints - a mech design that only had 4 lasers to begin with and later had an srm added but PGI decided it needed 6 Coupled with JJ's you have a mech that can mix it up and get out of jam by circumventing terrain. Despite this, Heavies, and assaults are capable of killing them, even when the Jenner is at their feet. it comes down to the weapons the mech has, its speed, and the ability of the pilot to keep the Jenner off its rear. Which sometimes is as simple as backing up against a solid object and swinging those arms.

Varent, on 01 February 2014 - 03:50 PM, said:

as an example.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a3d01f528e90db9

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...704619ffffb3247

more armor similiar speed, same firepower better heat efficiency

just as an example. can mount even more firepower on some of the black jacks. Many other mech can mount ac as well and do it more effectively.

So no... actually mediums are much.. much greater then lights in a one on one fight.

darkchylde, on 01 February 2014 - 03:51 PM, said:

The awesomes are becoming an unseen mech (pardon the pun). The last one I saw was months ago, and it was the AWS-8R at that. The supportive role of the 8Q and 9M is better done by Jagers and cataphrat's using AC's which fire faster and run way cooler and do not require them to maintain a beam. Until the current heat system is revamped (ghost heat, dhs, dissipation), Ballistics are the superior choice.

The awesome still can fullfill a supportive role. And do it well. Unfortunately so many other energy boat mechs are better at it. like the Catapult and Stalker, just off the top of my head. As well as the Battlemaster.

It really comes down to the hit boxes. Also I think there was talk of custom changes to certain chasis. Realistically a custom change to the awesome with heat could fix it perhaps.

Khobai, on 01 February 2014 - 03:55 PM, said:

jenner > cicada. every cicada pilot knows that.

do the math. it isnt.

[Khobai]

Quote

do the math. it isnt.

Theres more to it than "math". jumpjets alone make the jenner better if used correctly.

[Varent]

Khobai, on 01 February 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

Theres more to it than "math". jumpjets alone make the jenner better if used correctly.

sure then, the jump capable black jack, 3 medium lasers, more armor, better heat efficiency. Hell you can even build it with a standard engine to be more durable.

mediums > light mechs

in a one on one fight.

[Serpieri]

Varent, on 01 February 2014 - 03:08 PM, said:

your using erppc. Wich is probly your problem there. Strongly suggest you change that to regular ppc then come back and talk.

regarding mediums. The strength of lights is in there maneuverability wich allows them to out maneuver and get behind mechs over and over again. They are only moderatly more maneuverable then a medium mech however wich offers more armor, and more firepower. So no, the medium outclasses the light pretty hard.

That is the game's problem. The mech comes with 3 ERPPC's and enough double heatsinks to use 3 of them effectively with cooling periods where only 2 are fired. The heat system is flawed - weapons were sped up and dissipation was not - DHS are fake, and on top of that a stock build that existed for years in TT and other video games is now penalizes by ghost heat. A mechanic that was supposed to fix alpha striking which it has failed to do.

For a medium to be as fast as a light - it has to sacrifice armor, weapons, utilities. The most effective light killers are the streak boats a weapon that spreads it damage which is less effective against heavier opponents. A cicada tends to always lose to a Jenner and Hunchbacks are not light killers. This has nothing to do with them being medium mech but everything to do with the tools they were given to fit the role the pilot wants. Which is to kill the other guy. Man do we need CW. Mediums have always been known to be the workhorses of battletech.

Edited by Serpieri, 01 February 2014 - 04:13 PM.

[Varent]

Serpieri, on 01 February 2014 - 04:11 PM, said:

That is the game's problem. The mech comes with 3 ERPPC's and enough double heatsinks to use 3 of them effectively with cooling periods where only 2 are fired. The heat system is flawed - weapons were sped up and dissipation was not - DHS are fake, and on top of that a stock build that existed for years in TT and other video games is now penalizes by ghost heat. A mechanic that was supposed to fix alpha striking which it has failed to do.

This isnt TT. you ned to let that go. It will never be TT, never promised to be TT and never said it was going to be anything close to TT. Its its own entity. Plenty of mw games have used skewed numbers, this is no different. Regarding alpha striking it actually did change it quite abit. Or are you frogetting the 6 ppc and 6 large laser stalkers?

Serpieri, on 01 February 2014 - 04:11 PM, said:

For a medium to be as fast as a light - it has to sacrifice armor, weapons, utilities. The most effective light killers are the streak boats a weapon that spreads it damage which is less effective against heavier opponents. A cicada tends to always lose to a Jenner and Hunchbacks are not light killers. This has nothing to do with them being medium mech but everything to do with the tools they were given to fit the role the pilot wants. Which is to kill the other guy. Man do we need CW. Mediums have always been known to be the workhorses of battletech.

actually it doesnt have to be as fast as a light mech. all it has to do is kill the light if it wants to fight. That said many can be just as fast as a light mech, run the same of better weapons and be more heat efficient. Math wise alone medium mechs are superior to a light with equal maneuverability. Im unsure what your getting at....

That said overall you still need to let go of the battletech thing... its not battletech.

[darkchylde]

Varent, on 01 February 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

The awesome still can fullfill a supportive role. And do it well. Unfortunately so many other energy boat mechs are better at it. like the Catapult and Stalker, just off the top of my head. As well as the Battlemaster.

It really comes down to the hit boxes. Also I think there was talk of custom changes to certain chasis. Realistically a custom change to the awesome with heat could fix it perhaps.

None of the mechs you mentioned are immune to ghost heat or have superior heatsinks/dissipation. Ballistics are still superior for boating and providing long range fire.

[Varent]

darkchylde, on 01 February 2014 - 04:28 PM, said:

None of the mechs you mentioned are immune to ghost heat or have superior heatsinks/dissipation. Ballistics are still superior for boating and providing long range fire.

not saying they are. I am saying they are better at it then the awesome because of there hit boxes, weight, speed, etc. The erlarge laser has its place for boating I assure you.

[Serpieri]

Varent, on 01 February 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

This isnt TT. you ned to let that go. It will never be TT, never promised to be TT and never said it was going to be anything close to TT. Its its own entity. Plenty of mw games have used skewed numbers, this is no different. Regarding alpha striking it actually did change it quite abit. Or are you frogetting the 6 ppc and 6 large laser stalkers?




actually it doesnt have to be as fast as a light mech. all it has to do is kill the light if it wants to fight. That said many can be just as fast as a light mech, run the same of better weapons and be more heat efficient. Math wise alone medium mechs are superior to a light with equal maneuverability. Im unsure what your getting at....

That said overall you still need to let go of the battletech thing... its not battletech.

Aplha striking has not changed - it continues to take place. ERPPC's are currently not viable which has nothing to do with TT but with the failure of this game's balance. Mechs with several energy slots are penialized by the poor heat system in this game and will continue to be that way until its changed. Ballistics are the King of the battlefield. What your really trying to say is back in the day Stalkers were a problem so instead of fixing the cause PGI created a system which penalizes energy mechs in general.

Your the one that needs to let go since you keep stating its about Math. You seem to have forgotten that math has very little to do with the player in a pc game. Now if you want to take a cicada and a jenner park them in front of each and fire until someone dies --- then yes math will win here.

[Varent]

Serpieri, on 01 February 2014 - 04:41 PM, said:

Aplha striking has not changed - it continues to take place. ERPPC's are currently not viable which has nothing to do with TT but with the failure of this game's balance. Mechs with several energy slots are penialized by the poor heat system in this game and will continue to be that way until its changed. Ballistics are the King of the battlefield. What your really trying to say is back in the day Stalkers were a problem so instead of fixing the cause PGI created a system which penalizes energy mechs in general.

Your the one that needs to let go since you keep stating its about Math. You seem to have forgotten that math has very little to do with the player in a pc game. Now if you want to take a cicada and a jenner park them in front of each and fire until someone dies --- then yes math will win here.

The erppc has its place, it can be used in several sniping builds. Perhaps its not a DOMINANT weapon but it has a place in mwo. I personally would suggest against using any build that uses more then one of them. 2 would be pushing it. There are not many mechs that are really penalized by this unless your reffering to stock only builds. Wich again... id strongly suggest against... there is the ability to change them for a reason.

lol its not even about that. im guessing your arguing because you feel the cicada is not as maneuverable? thats fine but in a straight up fight its maneuverable enough to not let the jenner behind it. It can trade blows just as well and wont overheat as much. It also is less vulnerable due to weapon placement since the jenner loses half its dps on loss of an arm where as the cicada loses none. I fail to see how you can argue that the jenner is better in a one on one fight?

[Varent]

Khobai, on 01 February 2014 - 03:55 PM, said:

jenner > cicada. every cicada pilot knows that.

just as another example of a basic medium that DOESNT use streaks and would kick a jenners ***.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1ad8823a350768d

*edit* And another, this one using streaks but not a streak boat. And its not even a popular mech lol.... Most consider it bad. Just wanted to show that example.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bb0a60c14ac38f0

I could get into the griffins, shadowhawks, wolverines and kintaro but im pretty sure you would agree they all kill lights as well. many of the hunchback can be built using alot of firepower, streaks, etc. as well as the trebuchet.

Also one of the trebuchet can get close to 140 kph while mounting the same firepower as a jenner with more armor. Also many medium mechs have arms that are more easily used for blocking shots.

Edited by Varent, 01 February 2014 - 05:06 PM.

[Serpieri]

Varent, on 01 February 2014 - 04:47 PM, said:

The erppc has its place, it can be used in several sniping builds. Perhaps its not a DOMINANT weapon but it has a place in mwo. I personally would suggest against using any build that uses more then one of them. 2 would be pushing it. There are not many mechs that are really penalized by this unless your reffering to stock only builds. Wich again... id strongly suggest against... there is the ability to change them for a reason.

lol its not even about that. im guessing your arguing because you feel the cicada is not as maneuverable? thats fine but in a straight up fight its maneuverable enough to not let the jenner behind it. It can trade blows just as well and wont overheat as much. It also is less vulnerable due to weapon placement since the jenner loses half its dps on loss of an arm where as the cicada loses none. I fail to see how you can argue that the jenner is better in a one on one fight?

The ERPPC doesn't have a place, the heat system is unable to handle the weapon and same goes for pulse lasers. These weapons run too hot and require DHS to be effective which this game does not have. Best to rename them to what they really are. Single and a half.

The current sniping meta uses PPC's and AC5's becuase ER's are to hot. Those mechs that have mostly energy slots are not being fielded because the game punishes them for grouping energy, and downgrading the weapons only adds a couple of more seconds of up time before they shutdown. None of them are capable of sustained fire.

Do you even know what your arguing about maybe you should take a step back because you've clearly lost your line of thought here regarding mediums and lights. None of the builds you posted is rock vs paper. A streak boat will rip apart any light - anything else and it comes down to the pilot. And two steaks does not make a boat.

[Black Arachne]

PGI needs to make the Awesome viable with the ERPPC's, PPC's and lasers without shutting down because of ghost heat and a crippled heat system that is far better for ballistics. And this goes for every mech that has several energy slots.

I bough a cataphract after I sold my AWS-9M, I put on 4 ac5's and I can't believe the difference. I don't ever have to my finger of the trigger, this mech allowed me to destroy a stalker that was across a ridge and wade into two catapults and rip them to shreds. The energy weapons in this game feel slow and cumbersome. So much more freedom with ac's. Oh and I'm stilling using single heatsinks on the cataphract, and I can't wait to get the ultra's and set up that macro.

Edited by Black Arachne, 01 February 2014 - 07:14 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Black Arachne, on 01 February 2014 - 07:10 PM, said:

I bough a cataphract after I sold my AWS-9M, I put on 4 ac5's and I can't believe the difference. I don't ever have to my finger of the trigger, this mech allowed me to destroy a stalker that was across a ridge and wade into two catapults and rip them to shreds. The energy weapons in this game feel slow and cumbersome. So much more freedom with ac's. Oh and I'm stilling using single heatsinks on the cataphract, and I can't wait to get the ultra's and set up that macro.

Tell me again, what macro is useful with UACs that have the same cooldown as AC5s?

[Varent]

Serpieri, on 01 February 2014 - 07:00 PM, said:

The ERPPC doesn't have a place, the heat system is unable to handle the weapon and same goes for pulse lasers. These weapons run too hot and require DHS to be effective which this game does not have. Best to rename them to what they really are. Single and a half.

The current sniping meta uses PPC's and AC5's becuase ER's are to hot. Those mechs that have mostly energy slots are not being fielded because the game punishes them for grouping energy, and downgrading the weapons only adds a couple of more seconds of up time before they shutdown. None of them are capable of sustained fire.

Do you even know what your arguing about maybe you should take a step back because you've clearly lost your line of thought here regarding mediums and lights. None of the builds you posted is rock vs paper. A streak boat will rip apart any light - anything else and it comes down to the pilot. And two steaks does not make a boat.

you do know ppc are hotter then er-large right? also you do know the er ppc/dual gause cat-3d exists right? Maybe you should take a step back yourself good sir. and yes all of those builds would beat a light mech.

[darkchylde]

Varent, on 01 February 2014 - 04:33 PM, said:

not saying they are. I am saying they are better at it then the awesome because of there hit boxes, weight, speed, etc. The erlarge laser has its place for boating I assure you.

We're not discussing hit boxes and you have not assured anything. Ballistics are the superior choice for boating due to ghost heat, the current heat system, DHS, and dissipation until these are reworked ballistics will continue to be the go to weapon, especially since they are pin point and lasers are not.

[Serpieri]

Varent, on 01 February 2014 - 07:55 PM, said:

you do know ppc are hotter then er-large right? also you do know the er ppc/dual gause cat-3d exists right? Maybe you should take a step back yourself good sir. and yes all of those builds would beat a light mech.

Clearly, you have lost perspective on your argument.

[Black Arachne]

Mcgral18, on 01 February 2014 - 07:51 PM, said:

Tell me again, what macro is useful with UACs that have the same cooldown as AC5s?

It's on youtube.

[Mcgral18]

Black Arachne, on 01 February 2014 - 08:06 PM, said:

It's on youtube.

I don't think you understand, the UAC5 has the same 1.5 second cooldown as the AC5. It used to be 1.1, where it was beneficial due to the 25% jam rate. As it is, there is absolutely no point to using a macro, unless you want an AC5 with an extra 20 meters range.

[Varent]

Serpieri, on 01 February 2014 - 08:04 PM, said:

Clearly, you have lost perspective on your argument.

whatever helps you sleep better at night.