42 replies to this topic

[Nephilm]

Arnold J Rimmer, on 05 February 2014 - 05:00 AM, said:

You know what else was DOA, due to its size? The Shadowhawk.

Look how that turned out.

Size does not heavily affect the shadowhawk in its role, and it has good hitboxes.

On the other hand, going fast is the entire point and source of survivability for lights. In fact, I have a 2D2 fit for pugging whose life's purpose is to eat lights stupid enough to go less than 130kph.

[Arnold J Rimmer]

Nephilm, on 05 February 2014 - 08:05 AM, said:

Size does not heavily affect the shadowhawk in its role, and it has good hitboxes.

On the other hand, going fast is the entire point and source of survivability for lights. In fact, I have a 2D2 fit for pugging whose life's purpose is to eat lights stupid enough to go less than 130kph.

That is a fair point, but not the point of mine.

Almost every 'mech introduced to this game past the 'Founders' Four' - the Atlas, Catapult, Hunchback, and Jenner - has been at some point declared to be DOA. The SHD was just the first example to mind.

The Commando was declared DOA due to its low weight compared to the Jenner. The Raven, due to its fragility. The Spider, even, due to its light weapons load.

And so on, and so on.

[Pariah Devalis]

Exactly. Furthermore, people are still looking at the two clan lights we have in the perspective that they are supposed to be played the same way a Spider or a Raven or a Jenner pilots. Fast, hit and fade, skirmishers that shoot out from the main body and scout.

That is such a wrong way at looking at how (these particular) Clan lights are intended to function that it makes my head spin. The Adder, for example, is supposed to stay back and duck in and out of covers (ridgehump, essentially) putting 30 points of damage on a target and then hiding. Or standing back and letting its twin LRM20s rain hell. Neither makes it a huge, easily presented target despite its slow speed. The Kit Fox is supposed to anti-light, but not away from the main body, and once the enemy gets up close it has a ludicrous amount of effective firepower to bear on a light mech. It still suffers from the armor issue, but at least that is (finally) mutable.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 05 February 2014 - 09:32 AM.

[Nephilm]

Arnold J Rimmer, on 05 February 2014 - 08:23 AM, said:

That is a fair point, but not the point of mine.

Almost every 'mech introduced to this game past the 'Founders' Four' - the Atlas, Catapult, Hunchback, and Jenner - has been at some point declared to be DOA. The SHD was just the first example to mind.

The Commando was declared DOA due to its low weight compared to the Jenner. The Raven, due to its fragility. The Spider, even, due to its light weapons load.

And so on, and so on.

The Raven (specifically, the 3L) became viable due to the latter addition of ECM and how strong streaks were.
The Spider has the broken hitbox to its name.

Commandos currently aren't the most useless and stupid lights only because that honour belongs to the Locust, hands down.

There is no way to make slow lights viable - even if weight matching is added as an incentive away from heavier mechs, lights are just too fragile to be slow and would be one-two-shot by a medium or heavier that looked at them, losing any benefit from the tradeoff of packing more weapons.

Edited by Nephilm, 05 February 2014 - 09:39 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Nephilm, on 05 February 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

The Raven (specifically, the 3L) became viable due to the latter addition of ECM and how strong streaks were.
The Spider has the broken hitbox to its name.

Commandos currently aren't the most useless and stupid lights only because that honour belongs to the Locust, hands down.

There will always be the most useless of anything out there. The problem is there is not enough variation. Imagine if Raven's top speed, after tweak, was 120, Firestarter was 130, Jenner was 140, Spider was 150, Commando was 160, and locust 170? Do you want firepower/ECM or speed? Do you want mobility or firepower? It is a fair trade off and would make all the lights viable in their own right.

*Edit:

Raven, believe it or not, ***** about it or not, was never intended to be a long range scout. It was DESIGNED to stay near the pack and provide SUPPORT, a job that it, currently, tends to fail at as it can go out and scout like the best of them.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 05 February 2014 - 09:44 AM.

[Silence Jin Mang]

I`d like to say, I run around 110 in my jenner after speed tweak, and I dominate with the thing. Its not always about speed but skill. I can make a large pulse and three small lasers do as much damage as a ddc while running amongst the whole enemy team going 110, and I do it constantly. So my point is, speed is nice, but if you have the skills to dodge effectively you don't need 130+ to survive.

[Nephilm]

Silence Jin Mang, on 05 February 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

I`d like to say, I run around 110 in my jenner after speed tweak, and I dominate with the thing. Its not always about speed but skill. I can make a large pulse and three small lasers do as much damage as a ddc while running amongst the whole enemy team going 110, and I do it constantly. So my point is, speed is nice, but if you have the skills to dodge effectively you don't need 130+ to survive.

Now imagine if you used a good build; I bet you could go up several MMR tiers.

[SniperCon]

There's still hope for Clan omni scouts. The Fire Moth, Arctic Cheetah, Viper, and Ice Ferret are possibilities. In 3052, the Fire Falcon, Phantom, and granddaddy Black Lanner may be joining the party.

[Nephilm]

SniperCon, on 05 February 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

There's still hope for Clan omni scouts. The Fire Moth, Arctic Cheetah, Viper, and Ice Ferret are possibilities. In 3052, the Fire Falcon, Phantom, and granddaddy Black Lanner may be joining the party.

Considering they'll be releasing the ones on the pack on a monthly basis, don't expect to see any currently unannounced clan mechs until February 2015.

[Arnold J Rimmer]

Nephilm, on 05 February 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

The Raven (specifically, the 3L) became viable due to the latter addition of ECM and how strong streaks were.
The Spider has the broken hitbox to its name.

Commandos currently aren't the most useless and stupid lights only because that honour belongs to the Locust, hands down.

There is no way to make slow lights viable - even if weight matching is added as an incentive away from heavier mechs, lights are just too fragile to be slow and would be one-two-shot by a medium or heavier that looked at them, losing any benefit from the tradeoff of packing more weapons.

I'm impressed that you still aren't taking my point.

Just because something has been declared 'DOA' before release, does not mean it will be so when people actually get their hands on it.

Another example, if you need one, is the Centurion. "It's almost the same size as the Awesome!" people said. "It's 30 tonnes lighter! It's DOA!"

And lo, many many matches of Centurion zombies followed - along with much QQ about 3ASRM6 2ML cheese builds.

To answer your points - yes, the Raven became viable, AFTER being declared DOA, because the meta found a role for it that its lore-based description did not. The Spider became viable AFTER being declared DOA, because no one knew about its hitboxes before it was introduced. Commandos were used (and well) before the Locust was even on people's radar, and were also declared DOA before they actually came in.

Go search for Koniving's posts in New Player where he shows you the screenshots of his brutal games in an 88.3kph Ember before you totally discount slow Lights.

[SniperCon]

It's not just that the light choices are unbearably slow (which they are), but also that the other clan mechs are unbelievably fast. The initial clan release comes in three varieties. The assaults, the Timberwolf, and the mini-Timberwolves.

Edited by SniperCon, 05 February 2014 - 01:07 PM.

[Silence Jin Mang]

I hate to burst bubbles, but I`m probably already around the top of the light elo MMR. And secondly, just because something doesn't look good in the current meta doesn't mean it will be bad in the new meta (which is bound to happen). High alpha builds might become outdone by super tank clan mechs or something, we just don't know yet to make these accusations. I believe the Adder will find its place in MWO along with the Kit Fox. Both are sexy mechs and both bring a mediums worth of weapons with a lights speed. Sure the armor isn't the best, but be smart about how you pilot, its not that hard.

[pbiggz]

Solution to sub-100 clan lights: Chassis perk, speed tweak gives 30% top speed increase instead of 10%, pushes it to about 130 kph, which is respectable.

Calling something DOA when it is 4 months away AND with an obvious absence of real info is silly.

[Silence Jin Mang]

Don't, even make the speed greater than a 10% increase. Make it like the lore, they weren't fast, make players adapt to a new meta for lights. I think it would do good for the game to have a new meta for lights.

[Gyrok]

Keep in mind, all of you, lights in TT were not as fast as they are now, they were the speed they were when you bought them. There were a few "fast lights" like the commando and flea and locust, but they were the extremely light mechs. Mechs around 30-35 tons were never at 130+ kph unless it was a completely custom variant, or they had MASC, or some other system in place for bursts of speed.

Lights in this game are almost entirely too fast compared to lore, so they are already making a lot of concessions for lights before we even get into the other ways they are overpowered.

Hopefully, this will reset the meta for lights and people will begin to see that lights are really not supposed to be the ridiculously fast mechs they are now.

There are many more issues with lights I could carry on ranting about, however, that should suffice for now...

[GalaxyBluestar]

CyclonerM, on 05 February 2014 - 04:53 AM, said:

I meant, we buy an "AC20" and we can put that AC20 on an Atlas and then remove it and put it on a Blackjack. The same weapon! Does it "transform"?

oh you're refering to the pod quirks perhaps? i thought you meant the physical swapping and weapon asthetics.

[Silence Jin Mang]

Gyrok, that's what I`m referring too. These light mechs were designed around speed and maneuverability of lights with medium weapons. People are just use to lights being customizable.

[CyclonerM]

GalaxyBluestar, on 05 February 2014 - 09:35 PM, said:

oh you're refering to the pod quirks perhaps? i thought you meant the physical swapping and weapon asthetics.

Neg, i am actually referring to the latters.

If you buy an AC20 for an Atlas, i am not sure it would be compatible with a Blackjack.

Besides, IIRC "AC/10" is a designation for all the autocannons who deal 10 damage: in the lore, different weapon manufacturers built different ACs within the same class.

Edited by CyclonerM, 06 February 2014 - 05:52 AM.

[pbiggz]

CyclonerM, on 06 February 2014 - 05:52 AM, said:

Neg, i am actually referring to the latters.

If you buy an AC20 for an Atlas, i am not sure it would be compatible with a Blackjack.

Besides, IIRC "AC/10" is a designation for all the autocannons who deal 10 damage: in the lore, different weapon manufacturers built different ACs within the same class.

I know what you are saying, but I doubt we will get that level of complexity. If anything, they should simply implement sized hardpoints to make IS mechs a little less... free, but knowing Paul's aversion to logic, I doubt that will happen so long as he is balancing the game.

What I do know is that they originally intended to have different manufacturers for weapons (each giving a slightly different advantage/disadvantage), but have since replaced that with the mostly lackluster but still hopeful weapons modules.

[BIix]

But they did say it...
http://mwomercs.com/...gn-perspective/

Paul Inouye said:

This is the core of the Mech, with all the modular bits stripped out, and what remains cannot be customized at all. These include:

• The amount and distribution of armor

Edited by BIix, 06 February 2014 - 09:09 PM.