229 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Almond Brown, on 06 February 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

And sadly even that didn't stop the inevitable "Meta". It is just in the Gamer gene I suppose. 15 is better than 14 and 16, well "Hello Dolley", see you 14 and 15...

It went off the deep end in the 3075 TRO. It should have been called PPC3075! Thanks to the introduction of Light, Snub Nose and Heavy PPCs the whole dang book had a light blue glow!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 06 February 2014 - 11:42 AM.

[ReXspec]

LastPaladin, on 06 February 2014 - 11:31 AM, said:

*facepalm*...

Talking about why the Awesome is bad or how it could be fixed is completely off-topic. I just was citing that as an example of what IS mechs could become if they are made completely inferior to clan mechs.

No, it's not... it's relevant because we are bringing up more then one idea that could break PGI out of this ill-advised strangle hold on I.S./Clan mech design.

The awesome is just ONE example of possible variance in design or quirks.

Edited by ReXspec, 06 February 2014 - 11:45 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 February 2014 - 10:46 AM, said:

I was thinking of taking a Awesome when I signed up to for Founders, But the all eggs in one basket kept me from that choice thankfully.

I have read on here about when the Awesome had speed and was a good Mech as the Lightest of its weight class. Did folks complain about the Awesome back then and get it nerfed? How is that possible?

[Almond Brown]

ReXspec, on 06 February 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

If you can define what the actual meta in MW4 or TT was/is, then your presumptions MAY hold water. Assuming they can be backed by a credible source (such as competitive Mechwarriors, field manuals, etc.).

In MW4 it was called the 1000m curtain. It was truly a sad way to play that game. Step out from behind the curtain, fire and retreat. That was in addition to the rampant jump sniping. No matter, I never held water very good anyways.

[Joseph Mallan]

Almond Brown, on 06 February 2014 - 11:45 AM, said:

I have read on here about when the Awesome had speed and was a good Mech as the Lightest of its weight class. Did folks complain about the Awesome back then and get it nerfed? How is that possible?

Well the Awesome was good cause it has 7 Energy hard points 28 sinks and could get loaded with 7 Medium lasers and for a while had no speed cap except 400 rate engines are as big as the got. Yes they complained, both cause they were fast assaults that could blaze bulk lasers and cause PPCs sucked. Also head caps were discovered to be a tough weakness to overcome.

[ReXspec]

Almond Brown, on 06 February 2014 - 11:49 AM, said:

In MW4 it was called the 1000m curtain. It was truly a sad way to play that game. Step out from behind the curtain, fire and retreat. That was in addition to the rampant jump sniping. No matter, I never held water very good anyways.

Correct about the snipers. The 1000m curtain? Notsomuch... speed trumped the "curtain" in all cases, I found...

[LastPaladin]

ReXspec, on 06 February 2014 - 11:44 AM, said:

No, it's not... it's relevant because we are bringing up more then one idea that could break PGI out of this ill-advised strangle hold on I.S./Clan mech design.

The awesome is just ONE example of possible variance in design or quirks.

It was MY point, not yours. I think I am the one to judge what is or isn't relevant to the point that I was making.

[longwang]

You know, I went a head and started this whole conversation, hoping there would be something that comes out of it. However, I just realized... Clan mechs are scheduled to be released in 4 months. The clan collections page says June. Probably not enough time to scrap everything and change directions....

[longwang]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 February 2014 - 06:20 AM, said:

Clan ERPPC Has 50% more damage for 15% less weight Clan ER Large Laser 20% more damage 20% less weight Clan Gauss Equal damage 20% less weight Clan Ultra AC5 23% lighter equal damage (unless PGI give em a faster cyclic rate). I only looked at the UAC5 range and the Clan version had a 30m edge in range. After looking up the ERPPC they both have a 23 hex range. So you have exaggerated the difference a little bit sir.

Actually no, he didn't. Your comparison only looks at the weapons that were developed to try and compete with the edge that the clans have. So ER energy weapons have the same heat. But the clans don't have 'regular' lasers. If you include regular weapons (ACs, no UAC or LBX) and averaged everything, his statement wouldn't be that exaggerated.

[ReXspec]

LastPaladin, on 06 February 2014 - 01:12 PM, said:

It was MY point, not yours. I think I am the one to judge what is or isn't relevant to the point that I was making.

I was presenting the argument in the first place... so, my argument isn't relevant because you decided to hijack the point? Okay then.

[Lightfoot]

MWO is flawed at the core level.

When MWO was working close to Battletech norms with the exception of DHS 1.4 everyone whined about being cored by the new Meta, whatever the heck that is. So now we have ERPPCs and energy weapons that overheat exponentially faster than they should and a Gauss Rifle desync from Duke Nukem. So MWO can't follow Battletech and has to nerf all this junky Inner Sphere tech just to present a playable game.

That is why PGI can't support Clan Tech in MWO.

They may be in denial about this, but all the nerf balancing to Inner Sphere tech prevents MWO from having the Clan Invasion.

What you must do is petition PGI to make the mechs tougher and restore Inner Sphere tech to normal operation. Then you will get a much better version of the Clan Invasion and MWO gameplay will gain much greater depth than the shallow version we play now.

[mania3c]

PhoenixFire55, on 06 February 2014 - 08:05 AM, said:

Well if you affiliate yourself with a unit you are choosing side. WoW you choose alliance or horde, can't really say WoW isn't popular.

yes..when everything was normalized..do you remember pre shaman/paladin era in each faction? game ran into so many problems it wasn't even funny.. few my friends just left wow because they wanted play shaman/paladin..but other friends wanted play horde/alliance..

PhoenixFire55, on 06 February 2014 - 08:05 AM, said:

BV is usually Battle Value, yes. What this achieves is TimberWolf (MadCat) has something like 2500 BV while basic Orion that is 400 years old and with crap weaponry about 1200 BV. So what MM does is match a Timber vs two Orions for a fairly balanced match. Same way with stuff like AMS, ECM, BAP, they all add to mech BV. Different weapons add different BV, faster engines add more BV and so on. In other words unlike now when you drop in your top-notch Highlander of doom with same Elo score as you drop in a trial Stalker, you'll have the higher equivalent of Elo score the better mech you bring.

battle value doesn't sounds bad..but I would just hope that Orion could be as good as MadCat..just for gameplay sake..noone wants play inferior mechs in competitive game..

[PhoenixFire55]

mania3c, on 06 February 2014 - 08:19 PM, said:

yes..when everything was normalized..do you remember pre shaman/paladin era in each faction? game ran into so many problems it wasn't even funny.. few my friends just left wow because they wanted play shaman/paladin..but other friends wanted play horde/alliance..

IMHO it doesn't matter what faction you play if you are just playing with friends for fun. I don't play WoW myself, just brought it up as example really.

mania3c, on 06 February 2014 - 08:19 PM, said:

battle value doesn't sounds bad..but I would just hope that Orion could be as good as MadCat..just for gameplay sake..noone wants play inferior mechs in competitive game..

Look at it as a stock Orion build. Who playes stock in MWO anyway? If you add Endo, DHS, faster engine and more weapons its BV will skyrocket into 2000-ish area

[mania3c]

PhoenixFire55, on 07 February 2014 - 12:51 AM, said:

IMHO it doesn't matter what faction you play if you are just playing with friends for fun. I don't play WoW myself, just brought it up as example really.

maybe you..and maybe even me would suck it up..but again..it was tried and failed.. in moment when you will put some arbitrary boundaries between friends based on their preferences, you will start loosing your playerbase...you have either mirror these factions..or allow cross-faction play..and I am pretty sure.. PGI is pretty much focused on cross-faction play (but we will see..they didn't confirmed it yet.. but their sales last few months doesn't make sense if players would have to choose one faction only..

PhoenixFire55, on 07 February 2014 - 12:51 AM, said:

Look at it as a stock Orion build. Who playes stock in MWO anyway? If you add Endo, DHS, faster engine and more weapons its BV will skyrocket into 2000-ish area

Okey..I understand...so at the top of the Elo..BV would be additional balancing factor..while it make sense in current modes..I believe BV could be easily exploited in more dynamic scenarios.. but well..it's better than nothing I guess..

Edited by mania3c, 07 February 2014 - 02:50 AM.

[LastPaladin]

ReXspec, on 06 February 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:

I was presenting the argument in the first place... so, my argument isn't relevant because you decided to hijack the point? Okay then.

No, I'm sorry, I brought up the Awesome, not you. It was merely an example in my argument, and could have been any of dozens of mechs, because the specifics don't matter.

You then proceeded to go on some off topic excursion about how to fix the Awesome, when that had absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making about it.

[Joseph Mallan]

longwang, on 06 February 2014 - 04:36 PM, said:

Actually no, he didn't. Your comparison only looks at the weapons that were developed to try and compete with the edge that the clans have. So ER energy weapons have the same heat. But the clans don't have 'regular' lasers. If you include regular weapons (ACs, no UAC or LBX) and averaged everything, his statement wouldn't be that exaggerated.

Clans don't use regular lasers, The original 3050 had text that went along the line of, Standard weapons weigh -1 ton and -1 crit from their ER counterpart. Standard Mediums are 0.5T 1 Crit ans small lasers are .25 and 1 crit.

One of the long standing jokes is there is a table somewhere in a BattleTech rulebook that can determine what I ate for breakfast yesterday!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 07 February 2014 - 07:03 AM.

[Craig Steele]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 February 2014 - 07:01 AM, said:

Clans don't use regular lasers, The original 3050 had text that went along the line of, Standard weapons weigh -1 ton and -1 crit from their ER counterpart. Standard Mediums are 0.5T 1 Crit ans small lasers are .25 and 1 crit.

One of the long standing jokes is there is a table somewhere in a BattleTech rulebook that can determine what I ate for breakfast yesterday!

IDNKT. I thought Clans gave up on "standard" lasers decades ago.

I learny something new

On another issue, if I roll a double six can I have an omlette in bed?

[Butane9000]

Just do 10 v 12 when it comes to IS vs Clans. 2 Clan Stars vs 3 IS Lances.

[Joseph Mallan]

Craig Steele, on 07 February 2014 - 07:06 AM, said:

IDNKT. I thought Clans gave up on "standard" lasers decades ago.

I learny something new

On another issue, if I roll a double six can I have an omlette in bed?

Well with the kind of competitive mind set Clan Warriors have, taking the best equipment was a must. so why use old and busted when there is new hotness. Its that weapon creep folks talk about.

I think box cars was role twice on this table... so maybe?

[wanderer]

Quote

Clans don't use regular lasers, The original 3050 had text that went along the line of, Standard weapons weigh -1 ton and -1 crit from their ER counterpart. Standard Mediums are 0.5T 1 Crit ans small lasers are .25 and 1 crit.

Note that those were the "pre-rulebook" rules and were eliminated when Clan construction rules were actually printed In a rulebook. It's like old 2750 TRO's having (slightly) different ammo amounts per ton for the Gauss Rifle- they were amended later.

The Clans do not produce standard lasers, canonically speaking.