70 replies to this topic

[AngerMaker]

hey guys i have a question what should i get a centurion or stalker i like heavy firepower and health

[Arnold J Rimmer]

Going more by 'heavy firepower', Stalker.

Going more by 'health', Centurion.

In a Stalker, you are a large, important target that many players know is likely to be stacked full of guns. While you carry impressive firepower, you still won't last long as a focused target of a whole lance (or more).

The Centurion cannot carry anywhere near as many weapons/ammunition as a Stalker, but can still keep trucking along even when reduced to a pencil by the enemy team. Also, if/when tonnage limits come into the matchmaker, you might find more utility for a Medium mech than an Assault.

If nothing else, a Centurion tends to be cheaper than a Stalker!

[TercieI]

I've mastered both. The Stalker is fairly high firepower (though lacking ballistics on non-hero variants hurts it). Giant STs mean you can soak a pile of damage and keep going, even retaining real firepower after losing one side.

The Centurion was once considered a great zombie, but like many other mediums, has been overshadowed by the Shadow Hawk (and somewhat weakened by a bit box nerf).

In short, these are both only "ok" chassis (neither is awful, mind you and if you're willing to spend real $, Misery is excellent). May I ask why these are your two choices? If you're asking in new players, there are better options (I'm thinking Shadow Hawk and Cataphract for your stated criteria).

[Redshift2k5]

I was excited to see the Stalker when they came out, but they haven't impressed me over the last year. I would be more inclined to suggest a Battlemaster or a Highlander as a firepower-centric Assault mech, and a Shadowhawk as a solid, all-rounder Medium.

I strongly suggest using something like Smurfy to examine the details of mechs (loadout, speed, torso angle) as well as playing with test builds.

[Koniving]

Between the two I would say Stalker.

Unlike Redshift here I am actually impressed with the abuse the Stalker can take. I find it interesting that the two choices you present to us (AngerMaker) happen to be two of the very few mechs in MWO that can surpass typical life expectancy by way of hitbox design.

Centurions when they lose their arms have oversized arm hitboxes remnants that reduce damage to the shoulders by 50%. This only happens if they hit your shoulder by way of the cluster of wires and dangling parts. If the side torsos are destroyed, and the arm hitbox is hit, then it's reduced by 75% (damage - 50% - 50% equals 25% of damage left). This is why the Centurion is often referred to as a 'zombie'. Often it'll have 6% health or less, one leg, all arms and side torsos blown off, limping, no armor, red internals, and still fight.

The Stalkers have something similar going for them, on top of greater health than the Centurion, the Stalker has side torsos that do the same thing for the hard to hit center body. While they tank exceptionally well, they cannot handle turning. Think of yourself as a bullet or a rhino.



Indeed. You're facing off with a very large, very deadly rhino. Or if you're inside it, well then, below you'll find two links with the kind of abuse it could take with the old hitboxes which had several very obvious weak points (for example hitting a stalker on the pelvis repeatedly was as deadly or deadlier than hitting the cockpit).

Flamer Stalker and LRM Centurion support.
Flamer Stalker -- what made it legendary. (Taking on more 4 or 5 enemies at once who right next to me almost instantly take out 2 Atlases and one other heavy. The two Atlases part of my premade who had 84% and 96% health at the start of the fight and within less than a minute of fighting are dead. Health dropping on them in chunks of 3 to 17 at once. With all of them shooting me, I go on to live for an additional 3 minutes even with a Cataphract that has 4 ballistics shooting me in the backside with all autocannons).

And that was before the hitboxes were improved. Those weaknesses are gone. I'm finding them to be even better now that people can't use my pelvis to get instant CT damage without ever having to look at my center torso.

My point is that both mechs can tank really well. The Centurion takes more of a conscious effort to twist and have the shots hit your sides as you get none of the protection if they hit your front. The Stalker if you're under heavy fire you should swing your torso side to side while stepping back a lot like T-Rexes or Godzilla or so do under fire in movies.

Thus solving your quest for health. However, neither of them can satisfy your quest for firepower.

Well, the Stalker can if you're willing to handle lots of heat. But most are not.
The Wolverine (forthcoming) is also a great one for health and durability.

For firepower, the Shadowhawk is a good recommendation for now. The Highlander is truly a superb specimen but it takes getting used to and the use of a heat efficient build. That's a tricky order to fill. But here's an example of what a Highlander can do. (Lots of kills, lots of damage, all while giving commands to 3 lances; two of them filled with trial mechs, against an entire enemy team of not new players that have never seen a DPS rig before.)

Whatever the case, remember that a standard engine is always better than an XL if you can get away with it. My experience with the Battlemasters was very negative until I ditched the XL engines.

To honor Redshift's suggestion, this latest vid of mine has a Battlemaster in it with a field of view of 100; they have very nice cockpits. Time skipped as it features Jager, Battlemaster, Jager. Most Battlemasters are not so missile heavy, though.

Edited by Koniving, 03 February 2014 - 09:45 AM.

[MurnShaw]

I love Stalkers. They are really difficult to kill if you torso twist to avoid oncoming damage. Their wide side profiles mean they can soak a lot of damage before going down. Their max engine rating relative to their weight means they can be agile (for an assault) and still pack serious firepower. If I were to start over with a new account my first mech purchase would be a stalker. But keep in mind that in order to be deadly in a Stalker you'd need to master several piloting techniques, such as damage distribution, positioning, flanking, and heat management. An AC20 on a Misery reduces the learning curve a little but the thing to always remember about starting in an Assault is, you are going to die a lot until you master basic piloting skills. You'll always be first to be singled out and taken down, and you're helpless if you're alone and fighting against smaller, more agile mechs.

Centurions are good support mechs and require a different skill set to be effective. The thing about medium mechs is, you have to look for advantages when you engage because you don't have the firepower of heavier mechs and you don't have the speed of smaller mechs. So a huge chunk of game play for a medium mech is waiting for the enemy to show weakness or for your teammates to punch a hole. Think like a shark - You're not interested in fighting unless blood has already been spilled. Then you go in a frenzy, strike hard, and run before the enemy recovers. it's not as satisfying as blowing a enemy's torso off, but it always bring a wide grin to my face when a hobbled assault turns around and runs away from me because it knows it's on its last legs and I'm here to finish it off.

[Tesunie]

I have used a Centurion, but have Mastered my Stalkers. I prefer the Stalker 3F set up with a good mix of LRMs and med lasers/SSRM2s. This is what I roll with: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...96a221aea6eb8d2

I didn't like the other variants of the Stalker for their smaller twist rate, as the 3F has a larger twist angle over several of the other versions. In a stand up fight, people will focus on a Stalker more than a Centurion, because you are larger and normally more threatening. However, I find that the Stalker can easily shift damage from one torso to another with a little twisting action, making it so it can take a lot of damage. Most times, a Stalker can easily go on and continue to be a threat with a side torso out.

The Centurion took some hits over the recent patches over time. It'***** boxes got changed making it less of a zombie mech as they increased the CT size. They also decreased the size of the "destroyed" shoulder hit boxes, which use to be very large and help in reducing and redirecting damage with twisting. SRMs went wonky, which continued to diminish the Centurion's abilities.

However, the Centurion is still a very good ride (it ended up not being a ride that I liked too much myself), and will always be able to shoot back as long as it has a CT, as it has two energy points in its CT, which are normally two med lasers.

If you can, I'd personally suggest trying the two out over time. They are each very good mechs, but run differently from each other. You may find yourself not liking one and loving the other. Experiment a bit.

As far as using your cadet bonus (if you haven't already), the Centurion might be a good option to start with. It's cheaper to get and customize, and it's fast enough that it can still move around easily on the field. As a newer player, speed can help you learn the battlefield better than an Assault mech can. As an Assault mech is normally slow, and being slow means you get "stuck in" a lot and are unable to retreat. Assaults need to know a bit more of "were they need to be and where not to be". If you aren't in a good spot in an Assault, you are normally stuck. In a medium, you are normally able to still move out fast enough to "not be there anymore" if you are in a bad spot.

[Koniving]

Since we're on the topic. This was an old but still very true video about the stock Centurion which applies to most Centurion builds.

The video is made by the first MWO tournament's 4th place medium winner 7NationArmy (the first tournament took the total of all matches conducted within 3 days. Which meant the more you played the higher your total went. He played for less than 7 hours.) The pack is of Zhizhu players, and leading the pack is myself. I'm also the dancing Cicada at the end.

Edit: watching it again I just remembered how epic the Caustic Valley one was. Despite being (in that one) 4 trial Centurions, (that means HALF THE TEAM WAS TRIAL MECHS) the entire team followed us as we deviated from the normal tactic of rushing the center. We strolled along the outer rim of the map to come up behind the enemy and largely succeeded. Our entire team had the enemy in their sights, in the open, when they thought they were in cover. But a couple of lights started to take our base. Being the only mediums on the team, we rushed back to save the base. After slaughtering the lights, we got a distress call from a Stalker who was swarmed and isolated and rushed back. He was still alive when we got there, but died while we tried to save him. His attackers were a 6 SRM-6 Catapult and a 4 ER PPC Stalker. In the end, we prevailed with no casualties among the trial Centurions. Keep in mind, the stock Centurion D is 272 armor. The maximum for a 50 ton mech in MWO is 338. A Hunchback stock is 320 armor. Most assaults are over 500 in armor and carrying meta weapons. This was back in the days when SRMs were king, LRMs were "useless", ballistics were OP like crazy (still are), the LB-10x was "the worst gun ever" in public opinion and ER PPCs generated less heat than 3 medium lasers and had no ghost heat punishment.

And then this is my most recent Centurion video. It features a mixed loadout of UAC/5, MG, Streak, LRM-10 + Artemis, and 2 ML with a standard engine. It performs surprisingly well.

Edited by Koniving, 03 February 2014 - 10:13 AM.

[Tigerwolf]

With over 1300 matches in Stalkers, I can easily say go with the Stalker. For pure firepower, it is hard to beat and it's weapons layout is great for brawling and even sniping with its high laser placement and you can configure them as any kind of missile boat you want. Throw In the ballistic of the Misery and you have a truly fearsome mech. As for nimbleness and speed, a 300 engine gets you 65 kph with speed tweak allowing you to keep the enemies in front of you. For taking damage, I have been as low as 18% and still able to fight. With their large side torsos absorbing damage, one can even get away from enemies at times by merely going backwards and not bothering with twisting allowing you to fire in your retreat.

Drawbacks are as stated, limited torso twist and it is an assault so don't get caught alone. Also, develop situational awareness! The Stalker is a powerful mech but teams love finding them alone making them an easy kill.

[Tesunie]

Tigerwolf, on 03 February 2014 - 11:08 AM, said:

limited torso twist

Depends upon the variant chosen. I know the 3F has a very good twist range... Others don't so much...

[TercieI]

3F has 85, Misery 65, all others 60. The Misery's mastered is enough...and you have an AC/20. It's one of my absolute favorite mechs (bought on sale a few weeks ago) and has my best overall stats. The others, long mastered, gather dust. (As do all three Centurions, FWIW).

[Tesunie]

Terciel1976, on 03 February 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

3F has 85, Misery 65, all others 60. The Misery's mastered is enough...and you have an AC/20. It's one of my absolute favorite mechs (bought on sale a few weeks ago) and has my best overall stats. The others, long mastered, gather dust. (As do all three Centurions, FWIW).

I love my 3F, wasn't so impressed with the smaller twist of the others.

I've looked at, and strongly contemplated the Misery as my first Hero mech, but decided against it. I love my LRMs too much...

[TercieI]

Tesunie, on 03 February 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

I love my 3F, wasn't so impressed with the smaller twist of the others.

I've looked at, and strongly contemplated the Misery as my first Hero mech, but decided against it. I love my LRMs too much...

They bore me. I want to face down my prey.

[Koniving]

Out of them all, the various Stalkers had their own little niches. Until the art upgrade, the 3H benefits from having the most missile tubes. The 4N kinda forces you to do a balanced loadout which actually isn't bad. The 5M has 5 missile launchers. The 5S has twin AMS (double the missile protection). The 3F has the best torso twist.

I'm currently converting the latest Flamer Stalker vid. In the mean time, enjoy this reel of screw-ups from rebuilding the flamer stalker for the first time in a few months and having made some mistakes.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Koniving, on 03 February 2014 - 12:36 PM, said:

In the mean time, enjoy this reel of screw-ups from rebuilding the flamer stalker for the first time in a few months and having made some mistakes.

Ah. but those were fun matches in spite of that

Edit: Ahem....on topic...

I lean more toward the Centurion myself - but I prefer mobility over weight.
(To a point - though 24 Locust matches are awesome - for all I have had only one)

Edited by Shar Wolf, 03 February 2014 - 12:41 PM.

[Turist0AT]

Stalker. Delicius firepower and unmatched survivability

[Koniving]

Indeed. Last vid I'll leave here.
The Flamer Stalker with the issues in the reel of screw-ups fixed (even the most experienced players make mistakes like forgetting to reallocate armor or getting lost when the compass glitches and says both bases are in the same direction -- that being the one away from the base).


Shout outs to those within the video who shouted out to us "forum warriors." The vid will be provided to you guys in messaged links, too.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Koniving, on 03 February 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

Indeed. Last vid I'll leave here.

Vid is showing as 0:00 for time... IE no vid.

[Koniving]

Shar Wolf, on 03 February 2014 - 03:01 PM, said:

[/size]
Vid is showing as 0:00 for time... IE no vid.

It was still uploading; it's done now. But the picture isn't showing as of this edit.

It's the two epic matches after the two failures where I had 3+ kills each time around and an excess of 500 damage while being the concentrated fire target of an entire lance or more for periods of several minutes at a time, still managing to get my kills even while being unable to see and shaking like a level 5 Earthquake with heavy explosions and smoke and haze and blurred vision and such all around and so much noise that I had to turn the epic music up in the editing at certain points to still be heard.

Shar Wolf, on 03 February 2014 - 03:06 PM, said:

Edit: you have your vocalizations in the vid for when you realized you had gone the wrong way?

Not sure, I cut a lot of the being lost tidbit out to shorten the time. Probably not. I know I both said it and wrote it, but I was so far out in the boondocks it wasn't worth including all that wandering. What sucks is the 8 enemies left didn't take my challenge to fight 1 on 8. It makes me sad. But good thing too since I forgot to allocate the armor!

Edited by Koniving, 03 February 2014 - 04:08 PM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Koniving, on 03 February 2014 - 03:03 PM, said:

It's uploading. 20 mins left + processing time.

Gotcha - will be patient then.
Good heavens! he wants patience? time to yell and scream!!11!

I think I am feeling obnoxious today... or maybe just right now

Edit: you have your vocalizations in the vid for when you realized you had gone the wrong way?

Edited by Shar Wolf, 03 February 2014 - 03:06 PM.