1026 replies to this topic

[FactorlanP]

IV Amen, on 06 February 2014 - 04:45 PM, said:

Paul's post from http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3133184 that should be on this topic instead.



So Victors and Highlanders will be affected by the nerf bat as well as jumpjets.

I believe I tried to tell you all yesterday that a lot of you were jumping to an unwarranted conclusion that Paul meant that only jump jets were being changed.

I told you so... I informed you thusly!

[Mechteric]

Its good to hear specifics now, that its more about their maneuverability as assaults... but I certainly hope that jump jets can take a different direction than simply "slower turn rate at first". I sound like a broken record, but I think MWO should model after how MWLL did their jump jets. They were great for maneuvering (but not turning), especially during brawls, but they had slower recharge time and less floatiness (which leads to less ability to line up for that perfect jump shot).

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 06 February 2014 - 05:09 PM.

[DevsAdvocate]

CapperDeluxe, on 06 February 2014 - 05:08 PM, said:

Its good to hear specifics now, that its more about their maneuverability as assaults... but I certainly hope that jump jets can take a different direction than simply "slower turn rate at first". I sound like a broken record, but I think MWO should model after how MWLL did their jump jets. They were great for maneuvering (but not turning), especially during brawls, but they had slower recharge time and less floatiness (which leads to less ability to line up for that perfect jump shot).

Any videos as to how MWLL did this?

[Blood Rose]

Maybe you should nerf a Mech that need it... Like the Dragon or the Locust
On a serious note, i await this change with due trepedation, especially after the Ghost Heat issue.

[Deathlike]

I think the "lazy" method Paul will go for is essentially the reverse for Light mechs. Remember how the Commando and Spider got buffs (well, at least the non-ECM versions)? Apply some of the same stuff to Assaults, except in reverse.

Although, one would hope he would not apply the Pretty Baby's deceleration nerf to all Assaults... because that would be a travesty.

[Xavier]

If all you do is nerf mechs eventually you will end up back at the start with the same problem you needed in the first place. Rather than merging one or two mechs because certain people think they are "META" why not try to improve other competing mechs so that they can counter the mechs you are seeking to nerf. Everyone benefits when things get lifted up not put down.

Not to mention merging mechs is breaking a social contract that you made with people. They bought a mech with certain ability for a certain price. If you break that contract refunds as well as free offers would have to be considered because you have changed the terms of the contract after someone else agreed to it. Things like this in the real world would end up in lawsuits and alot of money being paid to the offending party.

Make it so that every mech has multiple options that can counter it.

-X-

Edited by FWC Xavier, 06 February 2014 - 05:40 PM.

[Woody Wilson]

Paul Inouye, on 05 February 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

Sitting across from the studio from me is a board with all the 'Mechs on it. In my crosshairs... the Highlander. More info to follow along with intended implementation date. Just giving you all a heads up.

Could we get a heads up on when a usable UI will be implemented to replace the farce that we were just forced to "upgrade" to?

[wanderer]

Nuclear launch detected:

Paul Inouye, on 06 February 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

Josef above touched on the critical issue that we are looking at... increasing the time to kill. I'll go as far as saying this... some of the medium and heavy 'Mechs went through a quirk balance pass. This has not happened for any of the assaults. Currently, assaults are a little too agile for what they are... the giant sledge hammers of the battlefield. The two Mechs which are currently above expected behaviour are the Highlander AND the Victor. Now keep in mind, it is not just the chassis that is the problem in this case, the jump jet effects on turning and lift also compound the issue with these two 'Mechs specifically. We will be addressing both issues at the same time.

So let's talk about that. What are the primary issues that cause the biggest reduction in time-to-kill? What's killing fastest right now? That's what seems to be the ideal place to fire the nerf guns.

[Gut]

wanderer, on 06 February 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

Nuclear launch detected:



So let's talk about that. What are the primary issues that cause the biggest reduction in time-to-kill? What's killing fastest right now? That's what seems to be the ideal place to fire the nerf guns.

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3133655

[wanderer]

Gut, on 06 February 2014 - 06:28 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3133655

Yes, as anyone who clicked the little arrow would have noticed. As people on here were bemoaning the possible fate of the Highlander and jump jets in general, I thought it relevant to quote here so people might have a clearer idea behind Paul's original post on this topic.

[RG Notch]

wanderer, on 06 February 2014 - 07:25 PM, said:

Yes, as anyone who clicked the little arrow would have noticed. As people on here were bemoaning the possible fate of the Highlander and jump jets in general, I thought it relevant to quote here so people might have a clearer idea behind Paul's original post on this topic.

Wouldn't it have been better if Paul were simply clearer in his first post here. Levity or what not, there's lots of good discussion about JJs in here, but also a lot of waste with people not clear about what he was talking about and all the e peen waving the focus of the first post on the HGN generated. Having a laugh is one thing, getting good feedback is another. It's not like he posts enough anymore to waste the few on silly jokes.

[Asmudius Heng]

RG Notch, on 06 February 2014 - 07:29 PM, said:

Wouldn't it have been better if Paul were simply clearer in his first post here. Levity or what not, there's lots of good discussion about JJs in here, but also a lot of waste with people not clear about what he was talking about and all the e peen waving the focus of the first post on the HGN generated. Having a laugh is one thing, getting good feedback is another. It's not like he posts enough anymore to waste the few on silly jokes.

Spot on. PGI need to get thier core communications back on track before they have the goodwil and cred to do this sort of thing. I would hate to think that it stops because of the vitriol here - there was a time when people quite enjoyed Paul's interactions like this - but it was backed up with much of regular serious communication.

both the community and the developers need to have a better reconciliation before this.

[Felio]

Paul Inouye, on 05 February 2014 - 05:27 PM, said:

Just going back to the good old days of poking the dragon and running away.

Yes... JJs are being looked at and specifically the initial burst turn. And there are other Mechs on the firing range.

Well... I hope it doesn't make light mechs less maneuverable.

[Bishop Steiner]

Paul Inouye, on 05 February 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

Sitting across from the studio from me is a board with all the 'Mechs on it. In my crosshairs... the Highlander. More info to follow along with intended implementation date. Just giving you all a heads up.

not sure I am 100% understanding things, as the info is spread all to heck and broke up worse than the pattern on an LB-X but my take is this:

JJs ARE broken. The amount of people running around with a single JJ are a huge part of the Poptart mess. Signifigantly reducing the thrust burst and distance of a single JJ would indeed help change the Poptart Meta to a degree, by at least forcing the Metatards to invest heavily into the system.

It would also reward people who play mechs like the Wolverine and Spider and Griffin with a lot of JJs and give more reason to actually max that feature out, again opening a wide distinction in role use. Current JJ implementation is hugely broken, period, and the only people who would argue that are the people who want to be able to get away with a single JJ for everything.

The current tonnage to value of the JJ in the current Meta is easily as broken as the ECM.

Thus I am all for Paul looking into this. (I still think the issues with convergence, lack of sized hardpoints and such are just as much an actually underlying problem to ALL these issues, but acknowledge the JJs are one of several quicker, easier bandaids that need fixing anyhow)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 06 February 2014 - 08:53 PM.

[Past]

I don’t own Highlanders but this is a chassis a lot of people would have paid for with real cash via MC for the 733C champion and Heavy Metal and to change what they paid money for to something different is going to really piss a lot of people off.
Be careful with that. Mechs for cash in this game don’t come cheap and targeting a specific chassis to make it something different to what someone paid for with real money would be a real wallet closer for most (fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me).
Balance through gameplay mechanics and weapon design if it’s across the board people will still whinge but in the end they will suck it up and continue playing.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Rebas Kradd, on 05 February 2014 - 07:32 PM, said:

You cannot remove pinpoint convergence without also removing the ability to target specific components on a mech.

Not true, fyi. You can retain perfect accuracy and introduce a variable level of precision, which makes targeting specific components not only still possible but still vital, while making it less possible to sustain absolutly perfect shot placement under suboptimal conditions. Factors that I suggest might modify precision levels would be throttle %, whether a mech is on the ground or in the air (or if its JJs are actively burning), and heat capacity %. There could be a base level of precision that is nearly perfect (say, ~0.5m diameter), which goes up based on circumstances (50%+ throttle might bump it up by another 0.5m, 90%+ might be a full +1.0m; being airborne adds +1.0m, JJs burning adds an additional +1.0m; etc.).

My basic point, though, is that accuracy and precision are two different measures, and the true limiting factor on skill is accuracy, while the true limiting factor on mechanical performance is precision. If we want to nerf the mechanics of pinpoint alpha damage, then we need to mess with precision, and leave accuracy (and thus skill) alone.

[East Indy]

Between this thread and Paul's other posts, I'm encouraged. If gaming jump jets is as extensive as it sounds, that's pretty unsporting and needs to be fixed. I believe arguments that the Highlander moves far more nimbly than an assault should; Victors aren't nearly as scary, but if they're the obvious choice then they ought to fall back in line. Tonnage limits will also prevent stacking once implemented.

I'm not sure how many player adjustments there are after PPC-AC/5 before combinations become sharply ineffective and desperate. I mean, you just don't see copycat PPC-AC/20 anymore. It might be worth playing on the test server with AC/5 shell damage and cycle time in half, increasing velocity to 1,800 or 1,900. Yeah, AC/2.5, and alpha reduced only to 25, but actual convergence will be altered, and the psychology of the weapon might shift enough.

As for the complaints about SRMs: is it time to throw in the towel and use a lock-on mechanic, since that code actually works? Lower damage, increase cycle time, and lessen screen shake as necessary for regular SRMs to justify the half-ton for a Streak — but the fix seems increasingly Quixotic while players beg to not feel as if equipping the weapon is a mistake.

[Amsro]

Nothing can stop the Heavy Metal.

Nerf Jump Jets - No Problem, I'll only take one.!
Hill Climb Nerf - No Issue, I have one JJ
Ghost Heat 3 Large Laser - No Problem, chainfire when it gets REALLy toasty.
Add Charge mechanic to Gauss - Still Gaussing
Nerf JJ - Again.. Fine by me JJ suck now anyhow.

Keep swinging the bat. The Music will just keep on playing!

[Tier up]

This nerfing bullcrap always makes me laugh. Nerf what you want. Ruin the game. Take away the play style of the elite players and guess what... They find a new one. The winners are still going to win. The criers are still going to cry. You're still going to do a lot of work that wasn't needed in the first place LOL.

[Dracol]

wanderer, on 06 February 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

So let's talk about that. What are the primary issues that cause the biggest reduction in time-to-kill? What's killing fastest right now? That's what seems to be the ideal place to fire the nerf guns.

In regards to your question, how highlanders compare to other mechs and JJ:

- With the one non weapon side of the Highlander (I will refer to it as the shield side), combined with the quick turn speed of jumpjets, the Highlander is able to maintain 100% effectiveness longer then any other mech. When a mech as able to maintain 100% effectiveness while still losing a torso and arm, they'll continue to out damage say an atlas having lost the same number of sections.

Now, if the turn speed is reduced, the ability to utilize the shield arm would be reduced, there by giving the enemy a better chance of reducing the amount of return fire.

BUT, this would be a minimal increase in the life expectancy of mechs facing off against a skilled Highlander opponent.

- The combined reticle caused by armlock allows all pilots to place pin point weapons onto one location. The asymmetrical load out of the highlander allows the pilot to strafe out of cover and bring all of its weapons to on target before any non-asymmetrical mech.

By only having to move out half the distance of the enemy, a Highlander pilot will more damage down range with less exposure. This has the effect of reducing the life of an enemy at the same time extending the life of the highlander.

----- Now. convergence has been talked about since closed beta. Other people on these forums can go into detail better then I can. But, the long and short of it is, Highlander pilots utilize arm lock to ensure their arm and torso weapons are going to hit the same spot. With the inclusion of a key bind for it, they can quickly gain the benefits of perfect convergence for all weapons, then revert back to the quick reaction of an independent arm reticle.