1026 replies to this topic

[Artgathan]

Victor Morson, on 16 February 2014 - 02:04 PM, said:

Plus on top of that, they refuse to listen to anyone thinking they know best in the face of 90% disapproval rates.

Source?

[Victor Morson]

Artgathan, on 16 February 2014 - 03:34 PM, said:

Source?

Go read the the last year of the forums, in particular the feedback threads.

Sorry you can't see the overwhelming polls though, PGI opted to remove the ability to make polls in most forums opposed to listening to them, everything you need to know.

EDIT: Also, 3PV is in the game. Ghost Heat is in the game. CW is not in the game. Ask anyone a year ago which one of these three they'd wanted to see..

Edited by Victor Morson, 16 February 2014 - 05:35 PM.

[MavRCK]

Victor Morson, on 16 February 2014 - 05:33 PM, said:

Go read the the last year of the forums, in particular the feedback threads.

Sorry you can't see the overwhelming polls though, PGI opted to remove the ability to make polls in most forums opposed to listening to them, everything you need to know.

EDIT: Also, 3PV is in the game. Ghost Heat is in the game. CW is not in the game. Ask anyone a year ago which one of these three they'd wanted to see..

^^ I vote for Community Warfare!!! COUGH COUGH!!!



This discussion is all about the "low hanging fruit" (a great expression I read in the outreachhpg forums) which others and myself wanted PGI to focus on after getting UI2.0 out the door.... We understood UI2.0 was a huge hurdle... but we don't want them to forget about the quick and easy changes that give HUGE benefits to the community!

In a way, think of all these posts / articles / "noise!" as lobbying... Sometimes you have to appeal in different ways to your politicians in order for them to act: sometimes you're telling them IT'S THE RIGHT THING, other times you're SHAMING THEM POO POO, other times you're THREATENING NOT TO VOTE OR BUY THEIR CLAN PACK.

Lobbying takes a lot of effort and dedication to get your message through.

And often, lobbying isn't all handshakes and smiles -- even though in a perfect world, it would be all niceness and cake.

Life aint cake.

Russ Bullock once pointed out an article about how to talk nice to game developers -- but I think he's mistaken -- we're paying customers and we have to get their attention like they're politicians.

So sometimes you got to tell PGI the hard stuff and hit them where it hurts and makes them listen. $$$

It's lobbying for changes... and this isn't a democracy.. PGI listens when $$$ disappears..

( Or... Is it more like North Korea..?? you want Community Warfare? No - you get ghost heat -- back to the labour camps for you! Evil Kim Jong Il laugh...! )

Edited by MavRCK, 16 February 2014 - 09:52 PM.

[Victor Morson]

MavRCK, on 16 February 2014 - 09:47 PM, said:

This discussion is all about the "low hanging fruit" (a great expression I read in the outreachhpg forums) which others and myself wanted PGI to focus on after getting UI2.0 out the door.... We understood UI2.0 was a huge hurdle... but we don't want them to forget about the quick and easy changes that give HUGE benefits to the community!

Great post and well said. A lot of what we've been asking for all this time could be accomplished in just a couple hours, and that includes trying several versions. Or even five minutes - yes, just five minutes - per patch cycle spent tweaking the XML.

The fact they won't take such a little amount of time to make such important fixes perplexes me to this day.

I have thought, from time to time, this is actually Paul/Russ horribly botching the "perfect imbalance" video, where it explained how new things are introduced that totally reset the musical chairs kind of balancing for items going in and out of importance. The problem is that is about adding new content that changes the fundamental game. It was not about leaving broken stuff in the game to occasionally "fix" it and change the fundamental game.

It's just a theory I will admit, but given the way these changes have been happening, it does worry me this is actually the broken misunderstanding of logic that's driven them to this point. Doubly so since we have had a primarily ballistic/energy setup since closed beta.

It could just be nothing more than me trying to make sense of absolutely perplexing levels of anti-customer attitude and stubbornness, but the reason these theories pop up all the time is the leadership of this game is often unbelievable: It seems like nobody interested in success would take the paths they've taken. Do you know how often the film "The Producers" comes up on other forums when discussing MW:O? It's so insane there are a lot of people who believe that, for some reason, they are trying to subtly destroy the game.

And every time you want to tell them how stupid that sounds, they do something like release UI 2.0 without basic functionality and a layout from hell that, quite literally, any amateur Android app designer could outdo. It's mind boggling and entirely inconsistent from the quality art and stuff in this game.

* Nerfing the PPC back to it's original value changed the game far, far, far more importantly than any change they've made in two whole years. And that was putting it back to closed beta stats. This could be avoided with a Community Manger that does his job (or one in general since Garth got transferred, not that anyone would notice) and a willingness to spend 5 whole minutes a month on reviewing the data and making some small tweaks. That is literally all we're asking for to solve many month old problems.

Edited by Victor Morson, 17 February 2014 - 12:12 AM.

[MavRCK]

Victor Morson, on 17 February 2014 - 12:05 AM, said:

The fact they won't take such a little amount of time to make such important fixes perplexes me to this day.

I have thought, from time to time, this is actually Paul/Russ horribly botching the "perfect imbalance" video, where it explained how new things are introduced that totally reset the musical chairs kind of balancing for items going in and out of importance. The problem is that is about adding new content that changes the fundamental game. It was not about leaving broken stuff in the game to occasionally "fix" it and change the fundamental game.

It's just a theory I will admit, but given the way these changes have been happening, it does worry me this is actually the broken misunderstanding of logic that's driven them to this point. Doubly so since we have had a primarily ballistic/energy setup since closed beta.


And every time you want to tell them how stupid that sounds, they do something like release UI 2.0 without basic functionality and a layout from hell that, quite literally, any amateur Android app designer could outdo. It's mind boggling and entirely inconsistent from the quality art and stuff in this game.

I wonder if PGI considers the excess brain power that's been devoted to giving them feedback --- this isn't a micro-transaction game model that works with all income brackets.. I'd gather most of us are somewhat solid and successful in our own way as to be able to afford hundreds of dollars on this game.

heh

[Dymlos2003]

Ugh the whining in this thread just keeps going on...

[Victor Morson]

Dymlos2003, on 17 February 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Ugh the whining in this thread just keeps going on...

Then quit whining about it. If you're not part of the solution, you're the problem and all that!

[Dymlos2003]

Victor Morson, on 17 February 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Then quit whining about it. If you're not part of the solution, you're the problem and all that!

Then stop acting like the sky is falling in every thread that you post in...

[Abivard]

Dymlos2003, on 17 February 2014 - 02:00 AM, said:

Then stop acting like the sky is falling in every thread that you post in...

Why don't you stop posting how everything is perfect, 'nothing to see here, move along folks'

[Victor Morson]

Dymlos2003, on 17 February 2014 - 02:00 AM, said:

Then stop acting like the sky is falling in every thread that you post in...

The sky is not falling. The player numbers are, and it's tied directly to everything I've been saying in the last few posts.

[Ryan Steel]

This thread has been quite the read. We have a variety of different opinions as well as some rather entertaining bits of banter and epeen exchange.
Here's what I know:

• 
  
  
  The game is skewed towards jump jet oriented mechs. Given that all mechs have problems navigating terrain on foot and stumble on both visible and invisible obstacles, in some cases coming to a complete halt, those with jjs are somewhat exempt from this penalty. This makes jumpjet mechs advantageous over non-jj variants with little to no drawbacks. With the exception of mechs with high mounted weapons like the Jagermech and the Stalker, jump jets also allow the user to fire their weapons over areas of cover and hit their opponents.
  
• 
  
  
  Some of the weapons in this game perform well, and some do not whatsoever. My ability to perform well with the weapons that are considered by many to be non-viable does not prove those people wrong, but simply shows that I can perform adequately with a handicap.
  
• 
  
  
  There is an issue with hit registration for SRMs, which may be the reason why they are sub-par.
  
• 
  
  
  Paul is exploring avenues for balancing the Highlander and possibly other jump-jet mechs.
  
• 
  
  
  The terrain mechanics have introduced unpredictability in mechs' movement behavior as obstacles invisible to the eye can cause mechs to come to a complete halt and sometimes get stuck.
  
• 
  
  
  The weapons that are sub-par have been so for a very long time, some of which have been sub-par since the game's inception.
  
• 
  
  
  In an effort to counter the boating of weapons of the same type, Paul introduced Ghost heat.

Here is what I'm taking away from what I know:


Given that Paul is looking at finding a solution to balancing the game through certain mech variants despite the existence of the facts stated above, I have to assume that either

• 
  
  
  Paul knows this information and doesn't find it relevant
  
• 
  
  
  He knows this information and thinks it's favorable for the game,
  
• 
  
  
  He knows this information and is completely ignoring it
  
• 
  
  
  He knows this information and plans on tackling it in the future, or
  
• 
  
  
  He is unaware of this information.

Given that these facts have existed for some time and his first move is to tackle jump jet mechs, I am doubtful of #4. I'm also inclined to believe that he wanted the balance to be skewed towards pinpoint alpha. When he introduced ghost heat, he effectively reduced the performance some mechs that were viable alternatives to the jump sniper. He even reduced the performance of mechs that were arguably underpowered. For example, the large pulse laser was never really a force to be reckoned with, but it was pretty good when used in 3s or 4s. Not only did ghost heat eliminate its feasibility of use, but changes to its heat and damage values rendered the weapon useless as its cons vastly outweighed its pros. In sum, the changes/lack of changes to the suboptimal weapons combined with ghost heat really sealed the deal when it came to weapon combos of choice: 2 ERPPC/Gauss and 2PPC/Gauss(currently used by some), 2PPC/AC20 (AC20 now nerfed), 2PPC/AC10 (AC10 nerfed), 2PPC/2AC5, 2PPC/2UAC5, 2PPC, 2ERPPC. As an attempt to reduce the ongoing playerbase QQ, the AC20 and the AC10 were nerfed, which effectively ignores the problem with balance. What was done here is take the AC20, a brawling high alpha weapon, and the AC10, a weapon which was already considered mediocre on its own and nerfed them to stop the QQ over PPCs.



When I stop to think about the reasoning behind such changes, I'm only able to come up with the following: Either Paul wanted people to gravitate towards PPCs and ballistics, he's on some serious chems, he's the most annoying troll of a developer, or he's simply indifferent about game balance. The 3^rd possibility doesn't seem like too much of a stretch seeing as he wants to “poke the dragon”. He is also very stubborn about the changes that he wants to make, so I simply don't understand why this thread was started. I find it pretty passive-aggressive to be honest.



My conclusion to all of this is that all your ideas and suggestions are a complete waste of your time. The purpose of this thread was a flame war. I definitely enjoyed myself. The rest of you guys poured your hearts out over a game you evidently are extremely passionate about, all for naught. Whatever it is that Paul intends is what's going to happen, period. Whether his changes are in the interest of skewing the game balance towards some mechs (perhaps to make sales), whether they're “just because”, whether they're out of abject ineptitude, or whether they're just to take a dump in your cereal, none of you will be able to get through to any of the PGI guys.



As a guy who loves psychological warfare, I'll give you a piece of advice: Don't propose solutions to Paul. He wants a flamewar of disagreement between camps in this thread. He wants “playerbase suggestions” that he won't listen to. He loves it. But he's not giving you what you want. In all likelihood, he's snorting his drink out of his nose just thinking about how he can give you something that's the complete opposite of what you want. So if you still want to play the game and return him the favor, just stop talking about his balance changes. He'll only have the people who are in favor of his changes thanking him, which to a troll is boring as hell.
LORD STEEL
ggclose

Edited by Ryan Steel, 17 February 2014 - 03:14 PM.

[Deathlike]

All of a sudden, I have this urge to subscribe to the LORDS ggclose newsletter.

I think Paul likes the JJ PPC/AC meta so much, I would like to share that meta with him. Goons <3 Paul v2 would be awesome viewing.

[MavRCK]

Ryan Steel, on 17 February 2014 - 03:12 PM, said:

This thread has been quite the read. We have a variety of different opinions as well as some rather entertaining bits of banter and epeen exchange.
Here's what I know:

• 
  
  
  
  The game is skewed towards jump jet oriented mechs. Given that all mechs have problems navigating terrain on foot and stumble on both visible and invisible obstacles, in some cases coming to a complete halt, those with jjs are somewhat exempt from this penalty. This makes jumpjet mechs advantageous over non-jj variants with little to no drawbacks. With the exception of mechs with high mounted weapons like the Jagermech and the Stalker, jump jets also allow the user to fire their weapons over areas of cover and hit their opponents.
  
• 
  
  
  
  Some of the weapons in this game perform well, and some do not whatsoever. My ability to perform well with the weapons that are considered by many to be non-viable does not prove those people wrong, but simply shows that I can perform adequately with a handicap.
  
• 
  
  
  
  There is an issue with hit registration for SRMs, which may be the reason why they are sub-par.
  
• 
  
  
  
  Paul is exploring avenues for balancing the Highlander and possibly other jump-jet mechs.
  
• 
  
  
  
  The terrain mechanics have introduced unpredictability in mechs' movement behavior as obstacles invisible to the eye can cause mechs to come to a complete halt and sometimes get stuck.
  
• 
  
  
  
  The weapons that are sub-par have been so for a very long time, some of which have been sub-par since the game's inception.
  
• 
  
  
  
  In an effort to counter the boating of weapons of the same type, Paul introduced Ghost heat.

Here is what I'm taking away from what I know:



Given that Paul is looking at finding a solution to balancing the game through certain mech variants despite the existence of the facts stated above, I have to assume that either

• 
  
  
  
  Paul knows this information and doesn't find it relevant
  
• 
  
  
  
  He knows this information and thinks it's favorable for the game,
  
• 
  
  
  
  He knows this information and is completely ignoring it
  
• 
  
  
  
  He knows this information and plans on tackling it in the future, or
  
• 
  
  
  
  He is unaware of this information.

Given that these facts have existed for some time and his first move is to tackle jump jet mechs, I am doubtful of #4. I'm also inclined to believe that he wanted the balance to be skewed towards pinpoint alpha. When he introduced ghost heat, he effectively reduced the performance some mechs that were viable alternatives to the jump sniper. He even reduced the performance of mechs that were arguably underpowered. For example, the large pulse laser was never really a force to be reckoned with, but it was pretty good when used in 3s or 4s. Not only did ghost heat eliminate its feasibility of use, but changes to its heat and damage values rendered the weapon useless as its cons vastly outweighed its pros. In sum, the changes/lack of changes to the suboptimal weapons combined with ghost heat really sealed the deal when it came to weapon combos of choice: 2 ERPPC/Gauss and 2PPC/Gauss(currently used by some), 2PPC/AC20 (AC20 now nerfed), 2PPC/AC10 (AC10 nerfed), 2PPC/2AC5, 2PPC/2UAC5, 2PPC, 2ERPPC. As an attempt to reduce the ongoing playerbase QQ, the AC20 and the AC10 were nerfed, which effectively ignores the problem with balance. What was done here is take the AC20, a brawling high alpha weapon, and the AC10, a weapon which was already considered mediocre on its own and nerfed them to stop the QQ over PPCs.




When I stop to think about the reasoning behind such changes, I'm only able to come up with the following: Either Paul wanted people to gravitate towards PPCs and ballistics, he's on some serious chems, he's the most annoying troll of a developer, or he's simply indifferent about game balance. The 3^rd possibility doesn't seem like too much of a stretch seeing as he wants to “poke the dragon”. He is also very stubborn about the changes that he wants to make, so I simply don't understand why this thread was started. I find it pretty passive-aggressive to be honest.



My conclusion to all of this is that all your ideas and suggestions are a complete waste of your time. The purpose of this thread was a flame war. I definitely enjoyed myself. The rest of you guys poured your hearts out over a game you evidently are extremely passionate about, all for naught. Whatever it is that Paul intends is what's going to happen, period. Whether his changes are in the interest of skewing the game balance towards some mechs (perhaps to make sales), whether they're “just because”, whether they're out of abject ineptitude, or whether they're just to take a dump in your cereal, none of you will be able to get through to any of the PGI guys.



As a guy who loves psychological warfare, I'll give you a piece of advice: Don't propose solutions to Paul. He wants a flamewar of disagreement between camps in this thread. He wants “playerbase suggestions” that he won't listen to. He loves it. But he's not giving you what you want. In all likelihood, he's snorting his drink out of his nose just thinking about how he can give you something that's the complete opposite of what you want. So if you still want to play the game and return him the favor, just stop talking about his balance changes. He'll only have the people who are in favor of his changes thanking him, which to a troll is boring as hell.
LORD STEEL
ggclose

[xCico]

I cant wait for cheese nerf, I wish this will be in todays patch, to see all that ''skilled'' players without hgn or other cheese ) ooh ^^

Because as far I saw, top tier hgn pilots are usually bad in medium-heavy without ppcs ^^, and there is weight limits on our way

Edited by 19cico96, 17 February 2014 - 04:27 PM.

[Villz]

Ryan Steel, on 17 February 2014 - 03:12 PM, said:

This thread has been quite the read. We have a variety of different opinions as well as some rather entertaining bits of banter and epeen exchange.
Here's what I know:

• 
  
  
  
  The game is skewed towards jump jet oriented mechs. Given that all mechs have problems navigating terrain on foot and stumble on both visible and invisible obstacles, in some cases coming to a complete halt, those with jjs are somewhat exempt from this penalty. This makes jumpjet mechs advantageous over non-jj variants with little to no drawbacks. With the exception of mechs with high mounted weapons like the Jagermech and the Stalker, jump jets also allow the user to fire their weapons over areas of cover and hit their opponents.
  
• 
  
  
  
  Some of the weapons in this game perform well, and some do not whatsoever. My ability to perform well with the weapons that are considered by many to be non-viable does not prove those people wrong, but simply shows that I can perform adequately with a handicap.
  
• 
  
  
  
  There is an issue with hit registration for SRMs, which may be the reason why they are sub-par.
  
• 
  
  
  
  Paul is exploring avenues for balancing the Highlander and possibly other jump-jet mechs.
  
• 
  
  
  
  The terrain mechanics have introduced unpredictability in mechs' movement behavior as obstacles invisible to the eye can cause mechs to come to a complete halt and sometimes get stuck.
  
• 
  
  
  
  The weapons that are sub-par have been so for a very long time, some of which have been sub-par since the game's inception.
  
• 
  
  
  
  In an effort to counter the boating of weapons of the same type, Paul introduced Ghost heat.

Here is what I'm taking away from what I know:



Given that Paul is looking at finding a solution to balancing the game through certain mech variants despite the existence of the facts stated above, I have to assume that either

• 
  
  
  
  Paul knows this information and doesn't find it relevant
  
• 
  
  
  
  He knows this information and thinks it's favorable for the game,
  
• 
  
  
  
  He knows this information and is completely ignoring it
  
• 
  
  
  
  He knows this information and plans on tackling it in the future, or
  
• 
  
  
  
  He is unaware of this information.

Given that these facts have existed for some time and his first move is to tackle jump jet mechs, I am doubtful of #4. I'm also inclined to believe that he wanted the balance to be skewed towards pinpoint alpha. When he introduced ghost heat, he effectively reduced the performance some mechs that were viable alternatives to the jump sniper. He even reduced the performance of mechs that were arguably underpowered. For example, the large pulse laser was never really a force to be reckoned with, but it was pretty good when used in 3s or 4s. Not only did ghost heat eliminate its feasibility of use, but changes to its heat and damage values rendered the weapon useless as its cons vastly outweighed its pros. In sum, the changes/lack of changes to the suboptimal weapons combined with ghost heat really sealed the deal when it came to weapon combos of choice: 2 ERPPC/Gauss and 2PPC/Gauss(currently used by some), 2PPC/AC20 (AC20 now nerfed), 2PPC/AC10 (AC10 nerfed), 2PPC/2AC5, 2PPC/2UAC5, 2PPC, 2ERPPC. As an attempt to reduce the ongoing playerbase QQ, the AC20 and the AC10 were nerfed, which effectively ignores the problem with balance. What was done here is take the AC20, a brawling high alpha weapon, and the AC10, a weapon which was already considered mediocre on its own and nerfed them to stop the QQ over PPCs.




When I stop to think about the reasoning behind such changes, I'm only able to come up with the following: Either Paul wanted people to gravitate towards PPCs and ballistics, he's on some serious chems, he's the most annoying troll of a developer, or he's simply indifferent about game balance. The 3^rd possibility doesn't seem like too much of a stretch seeing as he wants to “poke the dragon”. He is also very stubborn about the changes that he wants to make, so I simply don't understand why this thread was started. I find it pretty passive-aggressive to be honest.



My conclusion to all of this is that all your ideas and suggestions are a complete waste of your time. The purpose of this thread was a flame war. I definitely enjoyed myself. The rest of you guys poured your hearts out over a game you evidently are extremely passionate about, all for naught. Whatever it is that Paul intends is what's going to happen, period. Whether his changes are in the interest of skewing the game balance towards some mechs (perhaps to make sales), whether they're “just because”, whether they're out of abject ineptitude, or whether they're just to take a dump in your cereal, none of you will be able to get through to any of the PGI guys.



As a guy who loves psychological warfare, I'll give you a piece of advice: Don't propose solutions to Paul. He wants a flamewar of disagreement between camps in this thread. He wants “playerbase suggestions” that he won't listen to. He loves it. But he's not giving you what you want. In all likelihood, he's snorting his drink out of his nose just thinking about how he can give you something that's the complete opposite of what you want. So if you still want to play the game and return him the favor, just stop talking about his balance changes. He'll only have the people who are in favor of his changes thanking him, which to a troll is boring as hell.
LORD STEEL
ggclose

GGCLOSE

19cico96, on 17 February 2014 - 03:59 PM, said:

I cant wait for cheese nerf, I wish this will be in todays patch, to see all that ''skilled'' players without hgn or other cheese ) ooh ^^

Because as far I saw, top tier hgn pilots are usually bad in medium-heavy without ppcs ^^, and there is weight limits on our way

Clearly doesn't check the tourney boards huh ryan

[xCico]

I didnt mean on specific group, just facts

[Abivard]

19cico96, on 17 February 2014 - 03:59 PM, said:

I cant wait for cheese nerf, I wish this will be in todays patch, to see all that ''skilled'' players without hgn or other cheese ) ooh ^^

Because as far I saw, top tier hgn pilots are usually bad in medium-heavy without ppcs ^^, and there is weight limits on our way

That is about on par with the statement:

People with numbers in their names lack imagination and do poorly at games.

[Wintersdark]

Abivard, on 17 February 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

Why don't you stop posting how everything is perfect, 'nothing to see here, move along folks'

Seriously. Hell, if anything, I'm a White Knight. But there are things to see here, and there's a whole lot of good ideas in this thread.

I don't expect any of them to be used.

I don't even expect any of them to be read... but they might be. It won't matter, though. Why? I remember back to the days immediately preceding Ghost Heat. I remember those days very, very clearly. I remember countless good ideas regarding dealing with high pinpoint alphas.

I remember people proposing Ghost Heat too. (By the way - those people can go die in a fire) And all the people explaining how no, that won't fix the problem, how it'll nerf a couple things but cause tremendous collateral damage and ultimately people will just shift to other combinations of weapons for high alpha strikes.

Sadly, I was right there, saying "Oh, of course they won't do that, it's just stupid. It wouldn't even solve the problem." Well, fool me once.

Anyways... yeah, I'm just ranting. Don't mind me.

I've just watched this play out too many times. Paul will ignore everything but what he wants to do, come up with an overly elaborate solution that doesn't actually solve the problem, and we'll go on - so many good ideas ignored, until the next issue. (Note: This issue will still exist, but it'll be "solved")

*sighs*

Please prove me wrong, Paul.

[Deathlike]

Wintersdark, on 17 February 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

Please prove me wrong, Paul.

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Sorry, it's not cynicism or sarcasm talking... it's reality setting in to the simple fact that you should prepare for disappointment.

Paul will prove otherwise.

[Wintersdark]

Deathlike, on 17 February 2014 - 05:42 PM, said:

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Sorry, it's not cynicism or sarcasm talking... it's reality setting in to the simple fact that you should prepare for disappointment.

Paul will prove otherwise.

Yeah, I think the tone of my post should clearly indicate what I expect to happen =/