59 replies to this topic

[NRP]

When are pilot skills ever equal in a real game?

Hell, how often does a lone full health Jenner come across a lone full health Cicada? Everyone runs in packs, so it's a crapshoot who wins that fight. And no one worth their salt fights fair.

Edited by NRP, 07 February 2014 - 09:54 AM.

[TygerLily]

Terciel1976, on 07 February 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

Also, medium movement archetype vs. small. That's a big deal which has so far gone unmentioned.

That's a good point as well. But I think at the relative speeds we're talking, it wouldn't be much of an issue.

[TercieI]

NRP, on 07 February 2014 - 09:49 AM, said:

When are pilot skills ever equal in a real game?

They're not. But comparing mechs, you sortof have to exclude them, don't you?

In composing a drop deck, you do want me in a RVN-3L over a JR7-F. Does that mean it's a better mech? No. Just means that it suits me better and is close enough that pilot skill & inclination can be a factor.

I'm honestly not even sure the CDA is that close to a JR7.

TygerLily, on 07 February 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

That's a good point as well. But I think at the relative speeds we're talking, it wouldn't be much of an issue.

It feels like it is to me, but I admit some of that may be subjective. I feel like the change from light to medium is much starker than the change from tiny to light.

[NRP]

Well, just wait until PGI changes JJ mechanics (see Paul's "I've got a Nerf gun pointed at . . ." post).

But I agree that JJs are an advantage when navigating terrain. And I think the whole movement archetype thing needs to be re-thought.

Anyway, I don't fear any Jenner when I'm in my Cicada, and I don't fear any Cicada when I'm in my Jenner. And both eat Ravens for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, LOL.

[Fang01]

Terciel1976, on 07 February 2014 - 08:49 AM, said:

No, just this argument. When the facts actually counter your point, you don't have one.

That said, this thread makes me long for a Solaris mode. Much though I love Cicadas, I harbor no illusions: they are gimped Jenners. Bring any Cicada and an equally skilled pilot in a Jenner will wreck you and wreck you hard.

Yes yes a thousand times yes. A solaris 1 vs 1 queue with joinable spectating/C-bill betting lobby and trackable stats would be frigging amazing and should be a community wide request. I'd even pony up cash for a solaris package to make it happen.

NRP, on 07 February 2014 - 09:43 AM, said:

Heh, this thread is funny. I like Cicadas too. If you can't aim at high speeds, you'll suck in a Jenner just like you suck in a Cicada. JJs won't magically change that.

I don't agree that they are the worst Mediums at all. It is basically a Light, and Lights rule the game. The best Mediums are lightest Mediums and the heaviest Mediums. It's the ones in the middle that suck.

That said, I think Tiggo Bitties was just having a bit of fun with this thread, probably after a few drinks.

Soooo Blackjacks and hunches suck? News to me.

PSSSSST! If you see me in a 1X better kill me real damn quick

Terciel1976, on 07 February 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

They're not. But comparing mechs, you sortof have to exclude them, don't you?

In composing a drop deck, you do want me in a RVN-3L over a JR7-F. Does that mean it's a better mech? No. Just means that it suits me better and is close enough that pilot skill & inclination can be a factor.

I'm honestly not even sure the CDA is that close to a JR7.



It feels like it is to me, but I admit some of that may be subjective. I feel like the change from light to medium is much starker than the change from tiny to light.

Again, strongly agreed. Pilot specialization in a certain chassis is usually highly overlooked factor

[NRP]

Khajja nar Jatargk, on 07 February 2014 - 10:20 AM, said:

Soooo Blackjacks and hunches suck? News to me.

Nope. I said "lightest" (40-45 tons). Blackjacks are solid. I've got a few mastered and ready for the day when tonnage limits show up.

Hunchbacks on the other hand are not very good imo. Their hunch is too vulnerable. It's alarming how easy it is to shoot that thing off. Might be something wrong with the hitboxes/damage transfer on that thing. And until SRMs get fixed, the Centurion isn't that great either. We just leg 'em and leave 'em, or kill them outright. Don't know anything about Trebs. Never see anyone driving them.

Quote

PSSSSST! If you see me in a 1X better kill me real damn quick

LOL, ok. Will try to.

Edited by NRP, 07 February 2014 - 10:38 AM.

[Tesunie]

Terciel1976, on 07 February 2014 - 09:43 AM, said:

I've also used (and mastered) both.

The JR7-F compares directly to the CDA-2A and the JR7-D to the X-5 in terms of weapon mounts, but I disagree with your conclusion. Pilot skills being equal, the Jenner wins every time.

It's a close fight. Tougher vs more maneuverable. The Cicada not only has greater armor values, but also has greater structure health as well. The Cicada (at least the ones I use) also has two arms that are completely expendable. I shift a lot of armor from there to my torso and legs, and also then shave some weight for more speed/heat sinks/weapons. I also find that my Cicada can support it's "same size payload" with more heat cooling. One of my Cicada's can actually mount and keep relatively cool 6 med lasers.

Terciel1976, on 07 February 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

Also, medium movement archetype vs. small. That's a big deal which has so far gone unmentioned.

You also then forget that the Cicada is a medium mech, and has the added bonuses to twist speed and rates because of this. Medium mechs gained a boost to their reaction speeds over other mech types from what I recall. I also can shift my armor to places where I need it as well. This should give Cicada's more accuracy overall with their weapons. They also, as someone else stated, have a greater twist rate, increased farther from double basics.

As far as I can tell, it's a fairly even fight, with each side having it's bonuses in it's favor, and items that fall out of their favor.

X-5 vs Jenner D. Same weapons. SSRMs will probably benefit the Cicada as it has more armor compared to the Jenner. They have the same number of lasers. All the while, the Cicada can probably keep a little cooler the whole time. (Has more weight to throw around, saves weight from JJs, Etc.) The Jenner on the other hand has Jump, which can help it evade damage as well as escape engagements easier to help it cool down between. This is also terrain dependent.

The Jenner F is essentially the same as several other Cicadas. 6 med lasers being the preferred setup. The Cicada has the armor still, with the speed. It can also, when shooting in groups of 3 med lasers, probably stay cooler than the Jenner. The cicada also has the medium mech boosts to twist speed, and has two arms that don't need much armor. The Jenner still has JJs, which provide it some edge as well in evasive tactics.

Don't forget about the Cicada 3M, which can sport an ECM unit (not so important against specifically a Jenner, but can help overall against other mechs), and can support 4 med pulse lasers, with little worry for heat if used carefully.

Now, we also can't forget that several (3M, 3C) Cicadas can fit an AC in there. Even an AC5-10 can hurt a Jenner significantly, if it hits.

We can also look to the very shapes of the mechs. The Cicada is taller, larger overall. However, it has two shield arms on the sides, which surprisingly soak up more damage than one would think. It's legs tend to take damage easily, especially from terrain last I recalled. This goes out of the favor of the Cicada, as sometimes you can start combat fresh with "two orange legs" without even taking a shot of damage yet. (Can't recall if they have fixed this yet. I know they did once, and then it somehow crept back into the game.)

The Jenner on the other hand is smaller overall, but has one LARGE CT that stick out from the side view. It's got two very tinny side torsos, which need armor or they can go quick with a stray shot. Same with arms, as all Jenner's main weapons are arm mounted. This means that, in effect, a Jenner's armor must be concentrated into the CT, and the rest typically ends up becoming wasted weight that you have to have there for safety, but tends not to get used. You can't twist damage around, as if you show your side profile to an enemy, they will still probably hit your CT. If you jump, they hit your legs.

Between the two, and from playing each, I have had a harder time adjusting to the longer, larger side torso on the Jenner compared to many other mechs. I would turn my side to someone, and then die. I learned you want to be staring an opponent down with the Jenner, as then you are a smaller target overall, even if your CT is still probably going to take the brunt of the damage.


However, though lasers are great, I think that in a 1 v 1 light dual, the Oxide takes the cake. So long as it's SSRMs register, 4 SSRMs can really mess up the opponent's day. No amount of zigging and zagging is going to really save your hide. No amount JJs will help you, as the SSRMs will track you in the air just as easily (within reason).


Anyway. Most of these comparisons are going to be hard to do. It depends upon skill sets, terrain, who sees who first, teammates (this is a team game after all), map type, mech loadouts, etc. I can get slower lights to work, despite what people say about them, (such as my Cicada 3C that goes ~90KPH, or my Locust with a 100 engine in it). Most people call them "horribad builds". My skill sets seems to let me use such oddball mechs to decent efficiency. However, would either one of my mechs there survive a fight with another light/fast mech? Nope. They aren't designed for that. But, take my Stalker, and my Stalker has a good chance of winning 1v1 against a light mech, because of my loadout (and it's got LRMs on it!).

[TercieI]

Tesunie, on 07 February 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

Lots of cogent text with which I don't disagree with any of particularly, but from which I get a different sum of the factors.

See? Solaris!

Edited by Terciel1976, 07 February 2014 - 10:46 AM.

[Tesunie]

Terciel1976, on 07 February 2014 - 10:45 AM, said:

See? Solaris!

Would be cool.

All I'm saying is, it can still be a very close match. I recognize the benefits of JJs, but having more health and weight to use (as well as the buffs medium mechs got) can still be enough to counter that. It's just mostly a different style of play. What do you want to get out of your mech/game?

(Though I still wouldn't mind seeing some 1v1s between the "light" mechs, including the Cicadas. Could be fun.)

[TercieI]

Tesunie, on 07 February 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

Would be cool.

All I'm saying is, it can still be a very close match. I recognize the benefits of JJs, but having more health and weight to use (as well as the buffs medium mechs got) can still be enough to counter that. It's just mostly a different style of play. What do you want to get out of your mech/game?

(Though I still wouldn't mind seeing some 1v1s between the "light" mechs, including the Cicadas. Could be fun.)

This is all I'm saying. Like I said, we're looking at the same factors based on similar experiences, just coming to different conclusions. It'd just be a blast to be able to try it out.

And, to reiterate: I enjoy both chassis tremendously, probably preferring the CDA, but believing the JR7 superior.

[Sparks Murphey]

TygerLily, on 07 February 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

That's a good point as well. But I think at the relative speeds we're talking, it wouldn't be much of an issue.

If both had jump jets, I'd agree. But if a Jenner goes over a ridge, the Cicada has a hard time following. It might only be slowed for a short time, but at these sort of speeds, the Jenner has gone a long way in that time.

[Scurry]

I see the two as having somewhat different roles. The Jenner is more of the striker to enter enemy lines and wreak havoc. Work separate from the main team, do caps, run in wolfpacks, etc. The Cicada (3M only) I use as more of an overwatch, close support mech. Keep fairly close to your team, provide ECM support, help to tip the balance locally, snipe a bit, and only go independent in a pinch.

[Craig Steele]

Ummm, the Cicada 'should' be the 'better' mech as it has more resources to bring to the equation. More structure, armour, potential firepower etc.

Granted pilot builds may stress the theory, but fundamentally a Cicada has more resources to play with so 'should' be better if it's strengths are capitalised on.

But the OP was saying the Cicada is the best light mech (and Jenners are not)

That is incorrect.

The Cicada is a good Medium mech, it cannot compete in the "light" classification because it is not a light mech.

My 5 cents is I prefer the Jenner over the Cicada as it have more options imo (JJ, missiles) but ECM is a pretty good option too, just not one I appreciate as highly.

[Tesunie]

Scurry, on 07 February 2014 - 05:31 PM, said:

I see the two as having somewhat different roles. The Jenner is more of the striker to enter enemy lines and wreak havoc. Work separate from the main team, do caps, run in wolfpacks, etc. The Cicada (3M only) I use as more of an overwatch, close support mech. Keep fairly close to your team, provide ECM support, help to tip the balance locally, snipe a bit, and only go independent in a pinch.

Funny thing is, I find my Cicada's fill different roles than what yours do.

My Cicada 3C, set up as a Hollander-esk design, is a flanker, harasser, distraction, pest. I am normally fast enough to sneak carefully behind enemy lines and gauss someone's rear. Then duck and hide again as they go look for what hurt them. Then, I do it again till they figure out I'm there. Then, I tend to distract or engage said enemy, depending upon situation. I misdirect them and target another person in a similar manner most times.

My Cicada 2A on the other hand runs like a typical light skirmisher/striker. I run in, alpha any good targets with 6 med lasers, and then disapear if possible. In more drawn out fights, I will distract and pull away enemies (if they are looking at me, they aren't looking at the rest of my team) while shooting my lasers in two 3 med laser bursts to run cool. It's a heavy hitter design, best against slower, larger targets. But I find don't fair so well against smaller, fast targets too often (though it can still hurt).

Then, you have my Cicada 3M, with 4 med pulse lasers. This mech I pulse in sets of 2 lasers, and try to keep the pressure on targets, while using my ECM to shield friends if I can. I also tend to go and hunt the LRM mechs when I see them, as even if they jam my ECM, I still tend to force them to focus on me and not my team.

The Jenner and Cicada, by my accounts, share a lot of similar roles for me, just with different "skins" on. The Cicada's I tend to find I live longer in, but for some reason my Jenner seems to do more damage faster (I only have the Jenner D(S), with 4 med lasers and 2 SSRM2s). Either mech works very well, and here it might be more down to pilot skills than anything else.

[levitas]

http://www.twitch.tv/p33p3rs/c/3684164


Pick your poison.

To clarify, of course neither of these are mine.

Edited by solar levitas, 10 February 2014 - 06:25 PM.

[NRP]

Nice! I also run my 3M as a PPC striker. So much fun.

Also, I run my 2A in the same role as my Jenner F (fast attack skirmisher) and my 3C as an ERPPC+4 MG sniper, late game crit monster. Usually not super effective when solo PUGing, but with a coordinated team it pulls its weight and then some.

I really like Cicadas. I really like Jenners too. It's fun to drink and drive at 150 kph.

[Decoy3]

So I thought this thread might have some useful information in it, before it devolved in a debate about which mech would win in fisticuffs.

You guys are trying to answer the question of which mech is better based on which one would win in a 1v1 encounter, which is disingenuous. The question to ask isn't which of these mechs wins in a fist fight -- let's face it, they shouldn't ever be in a 1v1 unless they're the last two mechs alive. The better question is whether 11 mechs + Cicada or 11 mechs + Jenner is more likely to result in a match win.

[Craig Steele]

Decoy3, on 11 February 2014 - 02:35 AM, said:

So I thought this thread might have some useful information in it, before it devolved in a debate about which mech would win in fisticuffs.

You guys are trying to answer the question of which mech is better based on which one would win in a 1v1 encounter, which is disingenuous. The question to ask isn't which of these mechs wins in a fist fight -- let's face it, they shouldn't ever be in a 1v1 unless they're the last two mechs alive. The better question is whether 11 mechs + Cicada or 11 mechs + Jenner is more likely to result in a match win.

That might well be a valid question, but the OP was raising the 'statement' that the Cicada wins hands down.

Seeing as threads are kinda supposed to stay on topic, its hardly surprising most people entered into a comparison.

[Decoy3]

I didn't really pay attention to names throughout the thread, but the first post is just a general statement that says Cicadas are taking over as the dominant light mechs in the game, not anything specific like "Cicadas beat up Jenners in duels."

It was something I thought would be an interesting debate, but ultimately didn't go anywhere particularly useful.

[Rhaythe]

I call my X-5 my light-hunter for a reason.