213 replies to this topic

[Gut]

FactorlanP, on 08 February 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:

No, I'm not. But the only way for either one of us to be proven correct is for PGI to put separate queues into place.

So, the point isn't worth arguing.

I gave personalized information based on playstyles and philosophies of competitive players, and you don't back up anything you say. You believe competitive players just enjoy going around pugstomping, when that simply is not true, especially of SJR.

The point is worth arguing because ranking systems should be coming down the line. CW. Official tournaments. Shown ELO per team, or individual with forthcoming different queue types.

And these things will matter to people more than just an open queue. BIG TIME.

[MischiefSC]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 February 2014 - 08:50 AM, said:

* Then you are playing this game differently than I am. If I am with the Law, I get a report that Enemy Mech X is in D7, I go to D7 if I am close enough and I Kill him. Or IF there is A spotter with lock, I can kill enemy X from 700 Meters out. So the Whole Chess example only works if you are thinking as the unit commander and not the Pawn... Me I think of myself more as a rook bot thats a different story.

** The higher the TTK, the longer the enemy has to score a lucky shot or bore through my armor by Well placed shots. I have 30 years honing my skills and tactics for combat in this game, I don't want to waste time clicking a mouse or number pad repeatedly. For me the making of the best wrecking machine is part of the fun. If I can kill you in 1-4 salvos (Alphas) I have a dang good war machine. I am eventually going to be on the Steiner boarder fighting Wolves and Falcons with the Law. Long TTK will make it more likely we will lose. That is the experience I have facing the Clans As a Mechwarrior player and TT.

*** I am perfectly comfortable being both Lucky and Good. One without the other and you are missing something important.

****Don't forget, I am giving my wishes for my preferred TTK because I do enjoy my way of playing, And I am willing to bet there are others who also feel that way. So the DEVs need to know both sides of the equation to make the best selection for a "GOOD" TTK average. I admit I want a one shot TTK. I know that with heavy fire power I could get it on a Locust lets say. And though it would be Awesome FOR ME, to be able to Kill an Atlas the same way, I know it is not a likely thing to get. So long as the TTK feels right I am not going to complain about it. I never complain if I die 2 minutes into the game (Aww dang! or similar do not count as complaining) or last 15 minutes.

*****Or allows you to make more than one or two mistakes, and makes it harder to focus on which one is the bigger mistake
******Are those two Mediums Clan or Inner Sphere? I have yet to die in less than 20 seconds iin a one on one fight in a heavy or Assault Mech. Now 4-6 can and do get it done that fast, and they really should be able to. On TT If I had a Devastator and a Thunder Hawk team up on an Atlas... 2-3 Turns would be all it took. If I had a Mjolinr at short range... 1-2 turns is all it needs.

Here's the thing though Joe. You've died in less than 20 seconds in an Atlas before, even 1 on 1. That's 5 AC20 cycles, plus the first shot so in 20 seconds you should be able to get 6 full weapon fire cycles. A mech with an Alpha output of ~50 and weapons with a recycle time of max 4 seconds is going to do 150 points every 8 seconds. My favorite Orion does 96 every 4 seconds for example. If I'm even half-way on my game it does it in the same hit location. at close-ish range.

So one poptart with AC10s and 2xPPCs is putting 60 points on one location every 4 seconds, that's 120 in 8 seconds. Take a Shawk with 2xPPC and 1xAC5 even, that's 110 points every 8 seconds, all in the same location, assuming they are just poptarting at 4 seconds and not pouring the AC5 on you between PPC hits.

That's not very TT in terms of timeframe. Hence the need for other balance options.

I get that you're looking for a more one-shot-one-kill environment, the problem is that the mechanics for that obviously out-perform any DOT sort of build, all other things being equal.

You've died in less than 20 seconds, 20 seconds is a long time in MW:O. If you're playing with people who need more than 6 cycles of an AC20 plus LLs, SRMs, etc to kill you then you'd need 60 rounds of AC20 ammo to plow through a whole team

So I guess what I'm asking is, are you willing to give up, say, another 4 seconds? Not a lot and you can get that 4 seconds back with good aim - that's what makes a small DOT effect so cool is that you keep your existing DPS, you just can't snapshot it.

So let me clarify that. I'm not talking about increasing armor or reducing DPS. I'm not recommending anyone reduce the BOOM factor of popping a 70 point alpha off in someones face from your Atlas. I'm just saying you need to stay on target for just a half-second to do so. I'm saying that you can't put the whole ~70 points on the same hit location at 250m while running past without being Clan Star Captain sort of good. The point is to keep damage where it is, keep armor where it is, just reduce the snapshot killer accuracy while jumpjetting or ridge-humping.

The problem is that most the other solutions are going to reduce your boom factor across the board. I want to keep the damage where it is, just make it require a bit more skill to keep on a single hit location.

Thats where the higher skill comes in. Suddenly it takes more skill to keep a 4 second TTK (two alphas). It's still possible, just harder. I find that a superior option to requiring more total shots.

Either that or we acknowledge that the game is and will always be about PPCs and ACs plus JJs and everything else is just flavor text. That's already pretty stale, how's that going to taste in another year? Three?

[Joseph Mallan]

What do you have on that Orion? I haven't been able to break a 70 alpha in months? I have died in less than 20 seconds when facing 4-6 enemy Mechs. Which is perfectly understandable.

4 Seconds? I guess it would depend on the payload I am using vs what mech I am hitting. A locust or a spider No I would not be willing to. Why? Cause scouts/ lights are not meant to be durable. They are meant to be elusive. 4 more seconds against an Atlas? I could see it. It is a huge slab of metal armor and big honking guns.

Heck I don't put my 62 points of damage on one location(Pixel) MisChief. I would love to, but I am good that it isn't. Making it take longer to kill my enemy when I am not playing the pop Meta PPCs/ACs worries me. Break up Convergence all day.

As to making it take "more Skill" to kill rings wrong to me MisChief. If I miss you that should increas your TTD, but killing is easy, I can put 7/10 of my shots in a target the size of a human head at 500. Considerably less range if the target is moving of course. Snap shot is sometimes blind luck, Like my Shot on Khan Ig. But I have a fair streak of "Snap shots" on targets 800+ meters with Gauss/ERPPC and Er Large. So I am both a practiced range shooter, and a mean "snap shot" as well. And tell those quick draw experts they are just lucky!

I just cannot get into the mode that my BFG isn't doing BFG damage. If I wanna dance the scars with someone I will take lasers or small caliber ACs. But for the most part I wanna beat you guys like the Hulk beat Loki in the Avengers. Without being invulnerable to return fire.

[Sandpit]

Varent, on 08 February 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

to be dead honest. The highlander wouldnt even need a nerf if they simply changed the way jump jets are implimented. Currently the highlander is the king of the hill because its the heavies JUMP CAPABLE mech that can jump snipe. Its arms arent perfectly designed for blocking shots and many others do it getter. It also doesnt roll damage as well as many other chasis.

If you also the way jump jets are implimented and make it more difficult to jump snipe then you dethrone the Highlander without taking away its overall potential as a mech.

That's specifically what they're looking at. JJs. They jsut used the Victor and Highlander as the examples. It SOUNDS like they're going to look at the initial burst function. I think it's going to be close to what you and Road want.

[MischiefSC]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 February 2014 - 11:53 AM, said:

What do you have on that Orion? I haven't been able to break a 70 alpha in months? I have died in less than 20 seconds when facing 4-6 enemy Mechs. Which is perfectly understandable.

4 Seconds? I guess it would depend on the payload I am using vs what mech I am hitting. A locust or a spider No I would not be willing to. Why? Cause scouts/ lights are not meant to be durable. They are meant to be elusive. 4 more seconds against an Atlas? I could see it. It is a huge slab of metal armor and big honking guns.

Heck I don't put my 62 points of damage on one location(Pixel) MisChief. I would love to, but I am good that it isn't. Making it take longer to kill my enemy when I am not playing the pop Meta PPCs/ACs worries me. Break up Convergence all day.

As to making it take "more Skill" to kill rings wrong to me MisChief. If I miss you that should increas your TTD, but killing is easy, I can put 7/10 of my shots in a target the size of a human head at 500. Considerably less range if the target is moving of course. Snap shot is sometimes blind luck, Like my Shot on Khan Ig. But I have a fair streak of "Snap shots" on targets 800+ meters with Gauss/ERPPC and Er Large. So I am both a practiced range shooter, and a mean "snap shot" as well. And tell those quick draw experts they are just lucky!

I just cannot get into the mode that my BFG isn't doing BFG damage. If I wanna dance the scars with someone I will take lasers or small caliber ACs. But for the most part I wanna beat you guys like the Hulk beat Loki in the Avengers. Without being invulnerable to return fire.

Here's the thing. Your BFG is still doing BFG damage. You're still doing all the same damage, still blowing huge holes in stuff. If you're putting 7 out of 10 in the head, well, you should be doing the same in a mech (so to speak). That's why the DOT effect is between 0.3 and 0.5 seconds. That's half the current laser duration. At less than 250m you will still hit the same location even at a run. It should be almost irrelevant for everything you're talking about.

Where it will be relevant is the high-meta stuff. Poptarting and hill-humping snapshots. They can still do their snapshots - they just won't get full damage in same location without staying out in the open long enough to take return fire.

That goes back to the same thing you said - you want to do the damage, just not be invulnerable to return fire.

It's mostly though about the difference between this being massive battlemechs and being a person in powered armor. This isn't a soldier with a rifle, it's a 40 foot tall robot bristling with cannons.

Which brings us back to what you said about the Hulk beating down Loki. That's actually *exactly* what I'm looking for. How about the Iron Man vs Thor fight. Brutal, catastrophic battle. Now imagine the Hulk had been wielding a spear. He strides up, stabs Loki through the eye and moves on. Rather anti-climactic, isn't it?

I don't want one-shot kills. Probably one of my favorite matches I've ever played I was in a Jag S. 2x LB10x and 4xSRM4s. Pure shits'n'giggles. About as non-meta as they get. I ended up wtih 5 kills and a score of 126 - I blew people *apart*. I remember this one Hunchback, caught him running, I blew his armor off, one arm went flying, both torsos exploded off of him and when his CT finally went it was a mercy killing. THAT felt like this:



I did that to a few mechs.

THAT is what I want. I don't want to play the game in a sniper scope all the tim. I play ARMA 2 for that. I want to play giant robots that blow each other to pieces. I don't want one-shot-one kill, I want to blow things up.

[Gut]

MischiefSC, on 08 February 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

That goes back to the same thing you said - you want to do the damage, just not be invulnerable to return fire.

If possible, I'd want to be invulnerable to return fire. That's called playing intelligently.

And it's not easy against people who are good at it.

[Craig Steele]

Gut, on 08 February 2014 - 07:40 PM, said:

If possible, I'd want to be invulnerable to return fire. That's called playing intelligently.

Huh?

How is it intelligent if your enemy shoots you and does no damage?

[Gut]

Craig Steele, on 08 February 2014 - 07:47 PM, said:

Huh?

How is it intelligent if your enemy shoots you and does no damage?

It's when you're using cover effectively, not hit registration. THAT crap needs to be fixed!

[Craig Steele]

Gut, on 08 February 2014 - 08:03 PM, said:

It's when you're using cover effectively, not hit registration. THAT crap needs to be fixed!

Thats different to invulnerable? Probably just terminology

But in any case, I'm more for the improved durability of mechs. These things are supposed to be the ultimate of military hardware and they go down like nine pins.

If you're a truly good pilot / shot you'll hit the head and take a mech down just as fast (ie, with one shot)

This one shot coring a mechs CT is just a joke.

[Sephlock]

Reno Blade, on 07 February 2014 - 12:21 AM, said:

Wasn't this the reason we had some Elo changes lately? High elo players not beeing able to find matches sometimes.

You mean some people poptarted their way onto an empty kitchen table?

Cry me a river .

[Roadbeer]

Sephlock, on 08 February 2014 - 08:18 PM, said:

You mean some people poptarted their way onto an empty kitchen table?

Cry me a river .

That's funny,
Which brings me back to my earlier analogy of a 50's sitcom house-wife screaming on the kitchen table because of a rodent.

Edited by Roadbeer, 08 February 2014 - 08:30 PM.

[Sephlock]

Paul Inouye, on 06 February 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

[color="cyan"]I'll chime in here since the write up was well thought out and presented. (Not that other posts haven't been the same, but I'm being prodded by other internal influences)

Josef above touched on the critical issue that we are looking at... increasing the time to kill. I'll go as far as saying this... some of the medium and heavy 'Mechs went through a quirk balance pass. This has not happened for any of the assaults. Currently, assaults are a little too agile for what they are... the giant sledge hammers of the battlefield. The two Mechs which are currently above expected behaviour are the Highlander AND the Victor. Now keep in mind, it is not just the chassis that is the problem in this case, the jump jet effects on turning and lift also compound the issue with these two 'Mechs specifically. We will be addressing both issues at the same time.

Remember.. the nerf gun is a mid caliber gun... it can do little to medium changes but it's not going to render the targets useless.[/color]

Thank you for the reply. We were starting to feel a little... Worf

[Nooee]

Paul Inouye, on 06 February 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

[color=cyan]I'll chime in here since the write up was well thought out and presented. (Not that other posts haven't been the same, but I'm being prodded by other internal influences)[/color]

Josef above touched on the critical issue that we are looking at... increasing the time to kill. I'll go as far as saying this... some of the medium and heavy 'Mechs went through a quirk balance pass. This has not happened for any of the assaults. Currently, assaults are a little too agile for what they are... the giant sledge hammers of the battlefield. The two Mechs which are currently above expected behaviour are the Highlander AND the Victor. Now keep in mind, it is not just the chassis that is the problem in this case, the jump jet effects on turning and lift also compound the issue with these two 'Mechs specifically. We will be addressing both issues at the same time.

Remember.. the nerf gun is a mid caliber gun... it can do little to medium changes but it's not going to render the targets useless.

You already Nerfed everything that went into the Heavy Metal. Just remember that we have bought this mech with REAL cash money. Just because a few players that cannot deal with the battlefield conditions is no cause to nerf Assaults further. Assaults need this agility to combat the Overpowered Lights that dominate the battlefield. Perhaps putting nerfs on them will help balance. A spider with Machine guns should never be able to take out an assault. Assault pilots are compelled to install the best load out they can in order to overcome the light and med mechs that rule the battlefield.

[Praehotec8]

Ellen Ripley, on 07 February 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

That's exactly what I was saying in my previous posts. Exposing yourself to 4 Highlanders should get you killed quickly. The Highlander is one of the biggest Mechs ingame, it has 90 tons. It is meant to be a beast with immense firepower and if someone is careless enough to present his Mech to 4 of them at once, then he should die quickly if the 4 Highlanders use focused fire on him.

I think you're each discussing things in a different scale. Obviously being focused on by 4 HGNs will bring a mech down much faster than by one mech.

However, currently being focused on by 3 or more mechs results in nearly instantaneous destruction, if the pilots are even vaguely competent (on the order of 5-10 seconds). Believe me, I've done my share of charging headlong into an enemy lance before.

I think what Josef, and many others, would like to see is for that time to kill be adjusted to probably 2-3 times as long (i.e., a good 30 seconds or so of pure concentrated firepower needed to bring down a mech, with lesser amounts damaging the mech, possibly knocking out weapons or similar systems).

Such a change is likely difficult to achieve, and may be a pipe dream, but it would not change the need for coordination or tactics - it would, however, change the meta-game. No longer would 4 HGN poptarts be able to decimate whole teams at range simply by pinpoint coring each enemy one at at time. Rather, sniping would be the opening shots of an engagement that, ideally would run the gamut from long-distance softening to prolonged close-range brawls. Brawling mechs would shine more if they had an easier time surviving to get into position (player skill being equal), and mechs of all calibers would need to consider short-range and backup weapons (or staying near friendlies for support)

[NextGame]

RFMG567, on 06 February 2014 - 01:48 PM, said:

Section A) Dealing with gameplay inbalance

etc

That's your opinion, I think everyone has their own approach to how they would "solve" balance at this point, and those approaches are as varied as it comes.

Regarding highlanders, I think they are fine as they are, but I don't care to play them either, so they can resize them to be 3x the size, and half their armour & speed for all I care.

Quote

mechs not using all tonnage should go a bit faster

This, and other ideas, have been asked for consistently in the past, but PGI aren't interested.

Quote

Get rid of ghost heat

Agreed.

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Section Being supportive of the developers at PGI.

I remember reading recently that the developers at PGI felt like they were under-appreciated with their efforts to develop this game.

I remember reading recently the implication that PGI had no intention of starting work on community warfare until they got their microsoft license renewed, so had been stringing the community on all along.

I remember reading that community warfare and other features were coming within 90 days several times.

Get on message, and deliver on time and you will see the community's attitude change, theyve deserved the flak they have received for 2013 due to ghost heat, the 3pv 180 decision, leading people on, and not delivering anything worthwhile.

2014 has been encouraging at least, in that something has finally been delivered in line with a deadline, although UI2 doesn't look like something that has taken a year to develop in terms of the lack of thought that has gone into its layout, so we will have to wait and see if they can keep it up (looking at you, DX11 in March).

Quote

I don't blame them, whenever PGI develop a new patch, mech, idea, whatever, we always have the same vocal ones trashing their new content, saying this sucks, that sucks, whinge whinge.

Hell is other people, no matter what route is chosen, someone will not be happy. That's life.

Quote

Here's what I want to say:
1) Development of this game currently revolves around new content, suggested content, new ideas and feedback. If you're going to be unsupportive and not offer new ideas or constructive criticism, then in the politest way I tell you, take a hike.

The community feel, in general, collectively ignored by PGI and milked as a cash cow for no return of effort on PGI's part. This started at the end of closed beta. Things have been improving in 2014, and yes we should recognise and welcome that, however my impression is that we as a community are not yet ready to go back to giving them a free ride.

Quote

2) Your words have a big effect on people. These people at PGI have grown up taking an interest in video game development, they spend lots of hard work doing what they like to do best - creating a compelling and awesome online game. Your negativity actually affects others, negativity which is completely uncalled for. Think of how long it takes to build a house, and how easily it is to knock the house down. In the same way, a lot of support and positive feedback will go a long way. Keep it up those of you who are constantly supporting the developers.

Actions speak louder than words, and it's a 2 way street, between customer and a developer over an incomplete product. You seem to keep forgetting that.

Quote

3) Complaining about overpowered mechs more or less forces them to nerf said mechs to try and keep you happy. Like I said, your complaining will have a negative effect on this game. Now having said that, I know that a lot of you new people (or ones that have been around a while) are sick and tired of being on the receiving end of overpowered builds - which is fair enough - but at the end of the day, you either decide to complain or offer some constructive feedback.

There is too much complaining over nothing, especially people who can't handle a defeat or 2 and choose to blame anything but themselves.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mudhutwarrior, on 06 February 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

Stop thinking of pugs as fill for premades matches and give us the same tools.

Can't. Its what the makers of the game has said they will be used as.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sephlock, on 08 February 2014 - 09:49 PM, said:

Thank you for the reply. We were starting to feel a little... Worf

Dam! I am Worf!

[Joseph Mallan]

MischiefSC, on 08 February 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

I don't want one-shot kills. Probably one of my favorite matches I've ever played I was in a Jag S. 2x LB10x and 4xSRM4s. Pure shits'n'giggles. About as non-meta as they get. I ended up wtih 5 kills and a score of 126 - I blew people *apart*. I remember this one Hunchback, caught him running, I blew his armor off, one arm went flying, both torsos exploded off of him and when his CT finally went it was a mercy killing. THAT felt like this:

That pic is exactly what I want to be able to do. I know I can't do it to everything, but IF I get a hold of a Light Mech with my (F)Atlas... It should feel like this

After I am done with it!

I can respect what you guys are saying, I can. That doesn't mean it is "fun" for me! And we all deserve to have our fun at times.

One of my favorite moments was catching a Stalker alone with Anton's Jager40, not a Meta(the Stalker) but Good mix of Energy and missiles. Pounding it to mush was invigorating... The Cicada killing me right after that was pure Karma!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 10 February 2014 - 04:36 AM.

[Noesis]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 February 2014 - 04:18 AM, said:

Can't. Its what the makers of the game has said they will be used as.

Or they could or course constitute complete or a larger contingent of drops if say pre-made lances only make up 4/12 slots. This since due to a lack of incentive to encourage players to join organised groups and pre-mades if they are the most representative aspect of queues, then surely it will be the pre-mades who are the filler?

People are after all stating that in the main the 12 man queue isn't very prominent. And no-one really has a handle on how many pre-made lances are out there, even if I know this to be a more casual way that player groups play MWO when not involved with 12 mans of course.

Ideally however, for CW the orientation will be around the houses. So even if affiliated and not part of pre-mades they will be representing that organisation and capable of dropping solo. And therefore if this then constitutes the most abundant play style it will be the pre-mades who will in fact be the filler then don't you think. Though I'm sure the disciplined 12 man groups will still then be able to queue in the same one to add to the pot and be likely more capable in it as a result.

I'm just hoping that PGI/IGP does its best to give incentive and explanation to use teamwork elements and encourage others to be part of organisations for their benefit. This more than a launch tip when dropping perhaps. Though I'm hoping this emerges as part of the revealed details for CW. The natural Darwinism effect of non-premades being rofl stomped by competitive 12 mans should hope to encourage them to join up, at least those who will be close on the scale in skill to these groups. But I guess this leaves the soloists to then bounce up and down the bell curve as they do well and than have to face the likes of these teams.

Funnily enough I don't object to the idea of merging the queues as it will encourage skill, teamwork, groups, social frameworks, improved communications and make games overall better and more fun. But I can see an attrition with some players leaving MWO who wont be able to handle some of this emergent disparity between pre-made and pugs.

Thus I don't consider pre-mades evil at all, and would like to help encourage people to see the value in doing this even if say it is becoming a part of a faction /clan and joining one of their generic organisation TS servers to drop with others in their factions for these kind of benefits whilst not then subsequently having to be a part of a player run group. SOme of this is availabel to players now, but not helpfully promoted more by PGI/IGP, which does seem odd to me when considering how helpful this can be to game play. I guess it might be a case they are leaving it as player choice and the information and options are out there for people to explore MWO as needs.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 February 2014 - 04:18 AM, said:

Can't. Its what the makers of the game has said they will be used as.

Myself and many others think that is PGI's biggest mistake yet. Rather than an accepting and gradual climb into factions and groups they have made it a climb out of the slaughterhouse. They have lost and will continue to lose potential customers that way. I am all for the intent to make the game reflect the vision but in a practical sense how many not familiar with the franchise are going to stick with it long enough to even understand the basics.

The Noob/casual experience is nothing short of hostile here and on the field. I jumped in a few times this weekend and tracked my 18 matches. 12 were short. Never seen that in weekend play before. Out of the dozen I got to join none are left here. That's a very poor track record and is unsustainable.

I know your aching to get clans and all that is promised but in the Smart long view it would pay to delay that and make the game more welcoming to new players.

The fact that PGI is not doing anything of the sort leads me to my original conclusion many months ago. They are using this game as a platform to sell themselves into bigger and better things. We all will be left behind when that happens.