87 replies to this topic

[Thorn Hallis]

Sephlock, on 12 February 2014 - 10:23 PM, said:

What side buffs do you think the clans are going to get, keeping in mind past efforts at balancing?

Their SRMS will hit every time (because they are LRMs).

Sure, Omni'Mechs in MWO are less Omni then in the table top. But being able to build (nearly) the same 'Mech thrice is a big boon to players who want to "level" a certain chassis and much less pain when compared to most IS chassis.

[Sephlock]

Thorn Hallis, on 12 February 2014 - 10:39 PM, said:

Their SRMS will hit every time (because they are LRMs).

Sure, Omni'Mechs in MWO are less Omni then in the table top. But being able to build (nearly) the same 'Mech thrice is a big boon to players who want to "level" a certain chassis and much less pain when compared to most IS chassis.

Nope, there have been hints about their LRMs having a min range of.. 75, I believe it was... and other comments (on reddit) concerning the nerfing of LRMs.... that, plus their stance on LRMs so far, should be more than enough to make one cautious at best about Clan LRMs.

[Vanguard319]

I haven't seen too many 2 AC/20 builds myself as of late. They are there, but they're not as prolific as you seem to think. (Artillery strikes on the other hand...) They are powerful, but they are only devastating at close range, and often they must sacrifice either speed, or armor to carry enough ammo to be useful. They aren't really a mech I would want to be running on a large open map. Once detected, you can bet any intelligent team will prioritize it for destruction before it can get in it's effective range. AC/20s are also among the weapons associated with ghost heat, generating a significant amount when group fired.

I would assume a UAC/20 would always generate ghost heat on the second shot, (essentially being 2 AC/20s) and that a 2 UAC build would effectively double that heat buildup. In short, you may have a mech with a ridiculous in-close damage output, but you will most likely shut down in the process, assuming the guns don't jam first.

Edited by Vanguard319, 12 February 2014 - 11:02 PM.

[Thorn Hallis]

Sephlock, on 12 February 2014 - 10:43 PM, said:

Nope, there have been hints about their LRMs having a min range of.. 75, I believe it was... and other comments (on reddit) concerning the nerfing of LRMs.... that, plus their stance on LRMs so far, should be more than enough to make one cautious at best about Clan LRMs.

The latest post in the forums (and yes, I know, this is not the first place to post) concerning Clan LRMs was that they will have no minimum range but will do less damage below 180 meters. But at least they hit - something that cannot be said about SRMs.

[Sephlock]

Thorn Hallis, on 13 February 2014 - 01:41 AM, said:

The latest post in the forums (and yes, I know, this is not the first place to post) concerning Clan LRMs was that they will have no minimum range but will do less damage below 180 meters. But at least they hit - something that cannot be said about SRMs.

Incidentally, would some of the people who are citing problems with SRM hit detection consider trying the worst locust? (I believe it is the 3s). It really doesn't seem like the hit detection on my 4x SRM2s is off at all when I use it- although the weapons are terrible enough as it is that I will tend to run out of ammo while only barely managing to do respectable damage.

[Craig Steele]

Sephlock, on 12 February 2014 - 10:23 PM, said:

Well we've only really heard about what they're nerfing, and it seems that the reason is because there are many "buffs" (advantages over IS tech) that are more or less unchangeable given PGI's policies (tonnage, etc). What we've gotten so far is an incomplete (and subject to change) list of things to balance out those advantages- hence, nerfs.

What side buffs do you think the clans are going to get, keeping in mind past efforts at balancing?

I think the quirks are going to be very interesting and probably understated. PGI have talked about them lightly and hinted Clans will have 'special" ones.

I can imagine that within the chassis, different pods will have different totals. So for example. If the prime arm had arm twist at + 10 degrees, the variant A might have at + 15 degrees. The hardpoints might be different but for some players / roles the arm twist might be a much greater advantage.)

You are correct though, the staged info release seems to be creating a lot questions. I can't say I'm a fan of how they're doing it, but my final judgement I will keep to I have the full picture.

[Butane9000]

I spent the morning trying to make an IS equivalent to the Dire Wolf in terms of weapons/firepower and I couldn't do it.

This is the closest I've come to making it.

[Lightfoot]

Craig Steele, on 12 February 2014 - 09:30 PM, said:

And you're assuming they don't. Fact is we don't know but yes for the purposes of making an example I used the number 10. It might be 8, the principle is still the same though which is you CAN exchange pods to maximise a particular type hardpoint if that suits your playstyle and the chassis.

The Pods will refect punlished variants, they have said as much already. So there will be a capability of having a Daishi with 6 ballistic hardpoints. (one each arm, 4 in one torso). Are people going to complain because its not 2 in each torso? Probably the min maxes will but it is what it is.

On DHS, ofc its a good thing. Take the Madcat, runs 15 DHS, a 375 engine will soak them all up, no crits required. Add one and it comes off your pod space. EXACTLY THE SAME as IS except its 2 slots not 3. There will be a handful of mechs with 10 DHS in standard form and bigger engines and tbh they are all lights / mediums so you're really making a mountain out a molehill here. With ES and FF being only 7 crits each there is plenty of room in the chassis except the most extreme of min maxing exercises.

The 'fixed' slots will more than likely be the ones published in canon so it won't be just to make your day difficult. Why would they want to redesign a mechanic like that unless it has a dramtic impact on game balance. Thats unlikely across multiple mech chassis but lets say it is true, isn't it a good thing they are balancing the game with that sort of mechanic?

Haven't seen anything about dual UAC 20's breaking the game. In fact, haven't seen anything about UAC20's full stop. What is your source here?

It seems to me that a lot of people are crying about nerf's to Omni mechs without understanding one of the key factors, that Clan tech is a package solution. Crying about nerfs because they're nerf's without understanding or appreciating the buffs that come with it is just making an argument for an unblanced mech / Chassis.

Well no, as stated by PGI, Clan XL Engines will only have 10 DHS in MWO as the maximum they can contain and the other 5 in the Mad Cat you mention will be placed in fixed locations by PGI, to block 2xUAC20 for instance, as well as nullifying the ability to adequately heatsink Clan ER weapons.

I don't really care about the 2xUAC20's, my point is that Clan Omnimechs will be the only mech types in MWO to have size restrictions placed in their arms and torsos and this makes Inner Sphere mechs more adaptable than the Omnimechs which are supposed to be the adaptable on the fly Battlemechs. In MWO that is reversed so some of the Battletech restrictions on Clan Omnimechs have to go to allow for MWO's open Mechlab. Otherwise they are just trying to fool you into believing the Clan mechs have some special adaptability that Inner Sphere mechs don't have. With Inner Sphere I would just pick the Mech with the hardpoint layout I need rather than switch omnipods around.

2xUAC 20s? Do you see any Atlas, Highlander, Victor, Orion, or Cataphract that can carry 2xAC20s? They could easily and in canon they all have Ballistic primary variants. But you do see Catapults and Jagermechs doing this, but only because they really can't do it effectively, and they didn't exist in any form that might be remotely canon in Battletech. But aside from all that the MWO Battlemechs are too weak to damage to allow fast mechs with 2xAC20 anything to be set free. That's all you would see!

And that's the real problem. MWO's mechs are too weak to support Battletech based weapons.




.

Edited by Lightfoot, 13 February 2014 - 09:16 AM.

[TELEFORCE]

Butane9000, on 13 February 2014 - 05:11 AM, said:

I spent the morning trying to make an IS equivalent to the Dire Wolf in terms of weapons/firepower and I couldn't do it.

This is the closest I've come to making it.

I tried making a configuration similar to the Dire Wolf on an AS7-D. I used 3 Large Lasers, 2 UAC/5 with plenty of ammo, and an LRM-10, along with CASE, some DHS, and maximum armor. I designed the configuration with the assumption that I would be unable to fire all of the weapons on the Dire Wolf at once anyway. On table top, I usually fire 3 ER Large Lasers, 2 UAC/5s (on "ultra" mode), and the LRM-10, and that keeps the 'mech mostly heat-neutral.

I find a lot of people are like "OMG look at all those guns! So imbalanced!" without thinking that they will pretty much never be fired at once unless the Dire Wolf pilot wants to boil eggs on his lap in the cockpit.

[Roadkill]

Vanguard319, on 12 February 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:

I would assume a UAC/20 would always generate ghost heat on the second shot, (essentially being 2 AC/20s) and that a 2 UAC build would effectively double that heat buildup. In short, you may have a mech with a ridiculous in-close damage output, but you will most likely shut down in the process, assuming the guns don't jam first.

Why would you assume that? 2nd shot of a UAC comes after the required delay to avoid GH. Unless they deliberately change it to do as you suggest, UAC/20 will not generate GH when double fired.

Thus leaving the UAC/60 Daishi as a monster of a Mech. Twin UAC/20, twin UAC/10 using Prime arms and B torsos. Double fire one UAC/20 and both UAC/10 for 80 damage, then do it again with the other UAC/20 when the UAC/10s recycle 2.5 seconds later.

No ghost heat. 80 damage pinpoint "alpha" every 2.5 seconds, at least until something jams.

There's no solution for this Mech that stays within the current MWO rules framework. They're going to have to come up with something new to prevent it from being overpowered.

[TELEFORCE]

Roadkill, on 13 February 2014 - 09:36 AM, said:

Why would you assume that? 2nd shot of a UAC comes after the required delay to avoid GH. Unless they deliberately change it to do as you suggest, UAC/20 will not generate GH when double fired.

Thus leaving the UAC/60 Daishi as a monster of a Mech. Twin UAC/20, twin UAC/10 using Prime arms and B torsos. Double fire one UAC/20 and both UAC/10 for 80 damage, then do it again with the other UAC/20 when the UAC/10s recycle 2.5 seconds later.

No ghost heat. 80 damage pinpoint "alpha" every 2.5 seconds, at least until something jams.

There's no solution for this Mech that stays within the current MWO rules framework. They're going to have to come up with something new to prevent it from being overpowered.

You forgot ammo

The configuration you specified will only hold 6 tons of ammo for all of the guns. 50.5 tons pod space - (24 for dual UAC/20s) - (20 for dual UAC/10) = 6.5 tons left. Good luck carrying a match with that, much less get into effective range with the UAC/20s before being chewed apart!

[DONTOR]

It will be able to duall Gauss rifles, so theres still that. And still take ALOT of back up weapons.

[Gyrok]

Ahh, but 4xCUAC10 or 4xCUAC5 is going to be interesting...no GH and plenty of ammo, and 4xCUAC5 can carry many other weapons along with 10-12 tons of ammo.

4XCUAC5 + 2xCERLL = Win!

Edited by Gyrok, 13 February 2014 - 11:33 AM.

[Lightfoot]

Gyrok, on 13 February 2014 - 10:59 AM, said:

Ahh, but 4xCUAC10 or 4xCUAC5 is going to be interesting...no GH and plenty of ammo, and 4xCUAC5 can carry many other weapons along with 10-12 tons of ammo.

4XCUAC5 + 2xCERLL = Win!

Ghost Heat is a global nerf, but Clan UAC10's will have a 2.5 second recharge most likely so you could stagger them.

Better make those Battlemechs tougher PGI, Clans will own Ballistics and Missiles no matter what.

Oh well, I think the dye is cast. Alea iacta est. Inner Sphere's only weapons that could threaten the Clans are PPC arrays and Gauss Rifles that work well, but they were too OP for MWO's MechWarriors to handle. Expect forum nerd-rage.

[Roadkill]

TELEFORCE, on 13 February 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

You forgot ammo

The configuration you specified will only hold 6 tons of ammo for all of the guns.

It's not a lot, sure, but when each alpha does 80 points of pinpoint damage you don't need very many of them to wreck face.

Besides, 2 tons of UAC20 and 4 tons of UAC10 gives you 7 double-tap alphas followed by 8 double-taps with just the -10s. Or use the 8 shots with the UAC10s while you close.

Or just drop it back to 4 x CUAC/10 and carry 10 tons of ammo. Still plenty overpowered.

[Roadkill]

DONTOR, on 13 February 2014 - 10:45 AM, said:

It will be able to duall Gauss rifles, so theres still that. And still take ALOT of back up weapons.

Carry 3 Clan Gauss with 8 tons of ammo. Still leaves you 6 tons for backup weapons... like 6 Clan ER Mediums?

[Corvus Antaka]

smart way to cut down boating imho

[Craig Steele]

Lightfoot, on 13 February 2014 - 09:05 AM, said:

Well no, as stated by PGI, Clan XL Engines will only have 10 DHS in MWO as the maximum (1) they can contain and the other 5 in the Mad Cat you mention will be placed in fixed locations by PGI, to block 2xUAC20 for instance, as well as nullifying the ability to adequately heatsink Clan ER weapons.

I don't really care about the 2xUAC20's, my point is that Clan Omnimechs will be the only mech types in MWO to have size restrictions placed in their arms and torsos and this makes Inner Sphere mechs more adaptable than the Omnimechs which are supposed to be the adaptable on the fly Battlemechs. In MWO that is reversed so some of the Battletech restrictions on Clan Omnimechs have to go to allow for MWO's open Mechlab. Otherwise they are just trying to fool you into believing the Clan mechs have some special adaptability that Inner Sphere mechs don't have. With Inner Sphere I would just pick the Mech with the hardpoint layout I need rather than switch omnipods around.

2xUAC 20s? Do you see any Atlas, Highlander, Victor, Orion, or Cataphract that can carry 2xAC20s? (2) They could easily and in canon they all have Ballistic primary variants. But you do see Catapults and Jagermechs doing this, but only because they really can't do it effectively, and they didn't exist in any form that might be remotely canon in Battletech. But aside from all that the MWO Battlemechs are too weak to damage to allow fast mechs with 2xAC20 anything to be set free. That's all you would see!

And that's the real problem. MWO's mechs are too weak to support Battletech based weapons.

(1) This is news, I must have missed it. Can you link me to the source please.

(2) In lore, none of these were designed with 2 x AC20 so no, the hardpoints don't refect that weapon loadout. In lore, swapping weapons configs on an IS mech simply wasn't an option. Even upgrading a laser for a PPC or an AC 20 for an AC 10 was a major thing in an IS mech that required facory work. The MWO mechs we have are virtually Omni's in many ways.

[TELEFORCE]

Lightfoot, on 13 February 2014 - 09:05 AM, said:

Well no, as stated by PGI, Clan XL Engines will only have 10 DHS in MWO as the maximum they can contain and the other 5 in the Mad Cat you mention will be placed in fixed locations by PGI, to block 2xUAC20 for instance, as well as nullifying the ability to adequately heatsink Clan ER weapons.

That doesn't sound right at all. In fact, I think there is a misunderstanding.

The only fixed DHS the Timber Wolf has are within the engine, the standard 10 that are required by the engine in addition to another 5, which are also stored in the engine. PGI could potentially break canon stock builds by making those DHS external. And if they did that with the Timber Wolf, they would have to do that with the rest of the Clan omnimechs, therefore invalidating a LOT of configurations that are especially crit-packed.

Besides, the Timber Wolf can't effectively mount dual UAC/20s. It only has space for 28.5 tons worth of weapons, so you end up using 24 tons for the two UAC/20s with only 4.5 tons left for ammo. I don't think we have to worry about it.

[Sephlock]

TELEFORCE, on 13 February 2014 - 06:23 PM, said:

That doesn't sound right at all. In fact, I think there is a misunderstanding.

The only fixed DHS the Timber Wolf has are within the engine, the standard 10 that are required by the engine in addition to another 5, which are also stored in the engine. PGI could potentially break canon stock builds by making those DHS external. And if they did that with the Timber Wolf, they would have to do that with the rest of the Clan omnimechs, therefore invalidating a LOT of configurations that are especially crit-packed.

Besides, the Timber Wolf can't effectively mount dual UAC/20s. It only has space for 28.5 tons worth of weapons, so you end up using 24 tons for the two UAC/20s with only 4.5 tons left for ammo. I don't think we have to worry about it.

Didn't they something about un-movable heatsinks, endo steel, and ferro slots, as well as certain weapons being unremovable?