87 replies to this topic

[Praslek2]

I realized after checking this that the particular mech I chose doesn't have endo/ferro. The principle is still going to be applied to every other mech, but for the Daishi they are going to have to use the special rule you see below that prevents you from changing which gun is in the arm.

If you read between the lines, they seem to be choosing a way to disallow combinations of large ballistics on Clan mechs.

http://mwomercs.com/...d-construction/

Quote

In all OmniMechs, the following are determined by Design on a per chassis basis and cannot be changed or customized in any way:

Engine type.
Standard vs XL.
Engine rating.
Internal structure type.
Standard vs Endo Steel.
The location of any critical slots occupied by the internal structure.
i.e. Instead of freely floating as they do in standard 'Mechs, slots occupied by Endo Steel are assigned specific locations that cannot be changed. (The slots still compact to provide as much continuous free space as possible. Just the location [left arm, etc] is fixed.)
Armor type.
Standard vs Ferro-Fibrous.
The location of any critical slots occupied by the armor.
i.e. Instead of freely floating as they do in standard 'Mechs, slots occupied by Ferro-Fibrous are assigned specific locations that cannot be changed. (The slots still compact to provide as much continuous free space as possible. Just the location [left arm, etc] is fixed.)
Heat sink type.
Single vs Double.
A minimum number of heat sinks (varies per chassis) have specific locations they must occupy and cannot be moved or removed in any way.
Customization involving adding additional heat sinks beyond the minimum number is allowed.
The heat sinks still compact to provide as much continuous free space as possible. Just the location (left arm, etc) is fixed.
Heat sinks cannot be added within the engine unless they are part of the minimum number that is included in the base configuration.
Canon OmniMechs generally place at least the 10 heat sinks required for all 'Mechs as part of the base configuration, but they do not always place enough to fill extra space in engines rated 275 or greater.
Whether MASC is present.
If not present, MASC cannot be added by the player.
If present, MASC cannot be removed by the player.
If present, the location MASC occupies cannot be changed.
Some OmniMechs, as determined by Design, have specific weapons or other pieces of equipment (such as jump jets) as part of their base configuration.
These weapons and equipment can be neither moved nor removed.

In addition to the limitations of the base configuration, the following rules apply when customizing any OmniMech.

If any of the following weapons are equipped in an OmniMech’s arm, any Lower Arm Actuator or Hand Actuator that was present in the base configuration is automatically removed:
Any Gauss rifle.
Any autocannon.
Any PPC.

Edited by Praslek2, 07 February 2014 - 04:43 AM.

[Sephlock]

"If any of the following weapons are equipped in an OmniMech’s arm, any Lower Arm Actuator or Hand Actuator that was present in the base configuration is automatically removed:
Any Gauss rifle.
Any autocannon.
Any PPC."

I am quite certain that the answer is "no", but... does that mean that I could drag and drop a gauss rifle onto an arm and the mechlab will automatically "delete" those actuators to make space?

(Given that it's PGI, I'm guessing the answer is 'no).

[Hexenhammer]

If an IS mech puts an AC/2 in its arm nothing changes. Put a single AC/2 in a clan arm and it looses the ability to aim left and right with that arm.

No wonder the Inner Sphere wins the war.

[Sephlock]

Hexenhammer, on 07 February 2014 - 05:30 AM, said:

If an IS mech puts an AC/2 in its arm nothing changes. Put a single AC/2 in a clan arm and it looses the ability to aim left and right with that arm.

No wonder the Inner Sphere wins the war.

The Clans were isolated so long that their technology inbred and now has exaggerated features.

[Sabazial]

Hexenhammer, on 07 February 2014 - 05:30 AM, said:

If an IS mech puts an AC/2 in its arm nothing changes. Put a single AC/2 in a clan arm and it looses the ability to aim left and right with that arm.

No wonder the Inner Sphere wins the war.

If this is true, then what exactly is the point in purchasing clan 'mechs when the IS 'mechs will be superior?

[Curccu]

Belphegore, on 07 February 2014 - 06:46 AM, said:

If this is true, then what exactly is the point in purchasing clan 'mechs when the IS 'mechs will be superior?

Superior? Really? Is Yen-Lo-Wang bad because it's arm doesn't have ability to aim left and right?

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Its a bit unclear how that is going to work. Currently we have two examples. The Yen-Lo-Wang loses its ability to free aim the arm but mechs like the victor just get reduced arm mobility. I think they will try to limit combinations such as 2xUAC20 but I imagine you will still be able to mount a single UAC20 somewhere on at least one of the Dire Wolf configurations.

[pbiggz]

I'm fairly certain there is a dire wolf configuration that has omni pods in the torso, so I wouldn't be too worried. However your tone says this post isn't so much about the clans themselves as it is about showing everyone your disdain for PGI.

[TELEFORCE]

The Dire Wolf's Primary Configuration arm pods should be able to accomodate dual UAC/20s. The double heatsinks in the arms aren't fixed. In addition, 2 critical slots will be gained in each arm due to the omission of the lower arm and hand actuators (which aren't actually present in the Primary Configuration's arm pods anyway due to the UAC/5s).

And yes, the Dire Wolf B's side torso pods should also be able to accomodate dual UAC/20s, although you won't be able to stick anything else in the side torsos due to the XL engine and a fixed double heatsink in each side torso. Ammo allocation for this setup can be a problem, since you can only stick two tons of ammo in one of the legs (I think the right leg has a fixed double heatsink in it).

(I have created many different pod configurations for the Dire Wolf on tabletop following the omnimech rules, so I know what's and where stuff is fixed on the chassis and what isn't. It is one of my favorite Clan assault omnimechs.)

Edited by TELEFORCE, 07 February 2014 - 08:13 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Here are all of the canon configurations for the Daishi.
Of those, the Daishi configurations that are available in or before 3050 (and thus, the set from which PGI would select what will be available in MWO) are the Prime, A, B, W, and S (along with Natasha Kerensky's "Widowmaker" and Phelan Kell's "Lone Wolf").

With STD structure, STD armor (at 99% of its maximum value), only three fixed Double Heat Sinks (one in each side-torso & one in the Left Leg), and 50.50 tons of pod space, the Daishi has plenty of interior space & tonnage.

As noted by others, Clan UAC/20s will fit in the side-torsos (with ballistic hardpoints provided by the Daishi B configuration), but Clan LB 20-Xs (which require 9 criticals) will not fit in the side-torsos, and there will be no space for anything else in the side-torsos if Clan UAC/20s are installed there.
The ammunition may be stored in the Right Leg (2 criticals open), Center Torso (2 criticals open), Head (1 critical open), or either arm (8 to 10 criticals open).

The removal of the arm actuators for OmniMechs comes from BattleTech (specifically, page 57 of TechManual):
"On biped OmniMechs, the lower arm and hand actuators are always considered to be pod-mounted, and may be removed to provide additional slots for weapons and other equipment. If the configuration desired mounts any kind or size of Gauss rifle, autocannon or PPC in a given arm, however, the lower arm and hand actuators in that arm must be removed first."

Edited by Strum Wealh, 07 February 2014 - 09:00 AM.

[9erRed]

Greetings all,

The S model carries:
- LBX AC20 (enough to disable most lights)
- LPL
- 5 x MPL
- 2 x SSRM4
- 2 x Mg's
- and wait for it..... 3 x JumpJets (holy carp)

This is a beast.
9erRed

[Albert Cowboy Teuton]

Hexenhammer, on 07 February 2014 - 05:30 AM, said:

If an IS mech puts an AC/2 in its arm nothing changes. Put a single AC/2 in a clan arm and it looses the ability to aim left and right with that arm.

No wonder the Inner Sphere wins the war.

You have to remember that Clan weapons/engines/heat-sinks/FF/ES are lighter and take less critical spaces than IS weapons. So having a couple of hindering unmovable critical slots won't be much of an issue. and that's something PGI can't change because of the canon variants.

What they said you could do is fit a Type-B's arm on a Prime chassis and vice versa, so there you have your alternative hard-points for your favorite chassis. Having a fixed number of heat-sinks, FF/ES in each locations will make that arm-swapping possible.

PGI also said that one of the important keys to balance Clan tech would be through weapon heat, range, beam duration, damage tweaks and recycle times. So I'm pretty confident things will turn up fine or as the pessimistic would say: "no worse than what the game already is"

Which by the way I think is pretty good so far despite it having to grow out of its matchmaking shooter days and it not being EXACTLY the game I hoped it to be (I hoped to see the "stock mech" (with variants) be the norm and the "custom Mech" be something truly expensive, which is not happening)

[Kanatta Jing]

Rouken, on 07 February 2014 - 07:17 AM, said:

Its a bit unclear how that is going to work. Currently we have two examples. The Yen-Lo-Wang loses its ability to free aim the arm but mechs like the victor just get reduced arm mobility. I think they will try to limit combinations such as 2xUAC20 but I imagine you will still be able to mount a single UAC20 somewhere on at least one of the Dire Wolf configurations.

Victor B has a small amount of arm motion. It has one full arm and stubbed arm to make room for an AC 20.

Victor K has a much greater range of arm motion. It has one full arm and one arm with an upper and lower arm actuator because the Guass rifle is a little smaller.

[Dan Nashe]

Random notes:
We don't know 100% sure what is fixed.
They may or may not allow dual AC20s. This is speculation.
Is preventing a dual AC20 assault a bad thing if there are no others in the game?
They may use canon record sheets for fixed stuff - who knows?
The list of stuff removing hand actuators did not include AC20s (suspicious?)

BIG THING:
DO NOT EXPECT THE S VARIANTS.
While canon, these are *not* in the core readouts and are not core variants.
Second, PGI clearly considers (rightly so) Jump Jets a chassis balancing factor.
Adding S configs to mechs that almost never jump otherwise, with the omni system, breaks that.
Conclusion: "S" configs are [probably] not going to be in the game.
Expect only configs from the basic TROs.
The only reason to take the Summoner over the Timberwolf is the jump jets.

Lack of Jump Jets actually balances the maneuverability of all three top weight classes:
Stormcrow/Ryoken.
Timberwolf/Mad Cat
Daishi/Dire Wolf

Edited by DanNashe, 07 February 2014 - 06:37 PM.

[Sephlock]

[Sybreed]

why don't they just give us hardpoint sizes already instead of this

[TELEFORCE]

As many have answered in the past, because hard point sizes would wreck customization. Just look at MechWarrior 4, the worst offender of this.

I think it's great that MWO combines the best of both worlds; fixed hardpoint types and proper BattleTech slots. It does preserve the flavor of individual chassis.

[Lord Perversor]

I can Expect some Chassis be able to carry 2x UAC/20 just don't expect to be able to make it possible on any Mech from 65 tons onward like if they will just become some kind of pseudoJager.

That's the beauty of their ideas (if properly implemented) while requiring a huge oversight on multiple possible configurations, they can just draw the line and ensure no one abuses the Omni rules to allow all Heavy clan mechs or bigger 2x UAC/20 as a possibility.

[TELEFORCE]

Maybe they'll give the UAC/20 (and maybe the UAC/10) some harsh heat treatment. On tabletop, the UAC/20 is the hottest-running ballistic weapon (at least before the Long Tom Cannon came out). I imagine that to offset its potential damage output, it will have a higher chance of jamming when performing a double shot, as well as a longer unjam time (unless the developers change the UAC/s play mechanics).

I really wouldn't worry a lot about dual UAC/20 omnimechs. The only Clan omnimech out of the bunch that's on sale right now that can run dual UAC/20s effectively is the Dire Wolf, and maybe the Warhawk depending on which pods are available for it. The rest of them neither have the space nor the pod capacity to run such a configuration effectively (like packing enough ammunition for the guns).

Sure they'll have more armor than the JagerMechs we've seen running the configuration, but I think it's up to teams to coordinate and stay out of their weapon range to concentrate fire and pound them to dust.

[Ghogiel]

Dual UAC20s aren't happening very often, just look at their pod space and hard points. It's 1 max for pretty much every mech unless it's a troll build.

Dual UAC10s are probably going to be where it's at for everything that isn't an assault mech. Even the Madcat can only mount 2 of them enough ammo and a few lasers as back up and it has loads of podspace compared to most other clan mechs it's size or smaller.

Dual UAC10 Dual CERPPC with SSRM6 and all the ammo to back it up on a daishi I think would be legging every mech in the game with its 500m effective, 70dam pin point, fast projectile speed, 2.5sec reloading on the UACs.

Any thing wants to test that up close gets half a streakcat of SSRMs in the gob for lulz.

Of course that's dreaming as they won't allow CERPPCs to do 15 dam and ghost heat or some other crap will cripple UACs no doubt.