139 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

I like em. Was on Crimson the other night, and ended up drawing fire for the scouts while we combined to bulldoze a clear path to the base. Likewise, I watched two of the Trial Stalkers in another game clear the path in no time by letting a scout wake up the turrets and then blasting it with combined salvos as the light ducked into cover.

What they DO make it tough to do is solo-cap the base, although as noted there ARE blind spots if you don't blunder in.

[Khobai]

Instead of capping the object of base assault should be to destroy the other teams mobile hq. base assault should also have respawns as long as your mobile hq is intact. That puts the focus on assaulting the enemy base rather than just killing the enemy team: which is already a game mode called skirmish.

If all three gamemodes are just going to be variations of skirmish we might as well just have skirmish as the only gamemode.

Edited by Khobai, 09 February 2014 - 03:09 PM.

[BrockSamsonFW]

Xanilos, on 09 February 2014 - 12:40 PM, said:

I dont like the turrets for 2 reasons.

1: They have LRMs so they become less of defenders and more of support units at times (esp on river city).

This happened to me last night on river city. Our team started on the side that is connected to the central tower area. Any time I popped out from behind one of the buildings IN MY OWN BASE one of the LRM turrets IN THEIR BASE would fire at me.

I only ever saw one of our ML turrets fire back at them despite them all being in the open and much closer to our base than we were to theirs.

It wasn't a very satisfying experience, but I was also only able to get one match with turrets despite playing assault for several hours, so maybe it was a fluke.

I would much rather see ML and SRM turrets. It makes much more sense for a defensive purpose.

Edited by BrockSamsonFW, 09 February 2014 - 05:04 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Gladewolf, on 09 February 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

Those "idiots", driving whatever they may be driving, only made it to your base because some "idiots" did not defend it. Make absolutely no mistake I LOVE these turrets, I think they should add a set of Long-Toms to the bases as well(computer controlled Artillery strikes every 20 seconds...until you make it stop...OH MY), just to make sure EVERYONE is on the same page as to the win conditions of the game they are playing.

The problem with those 'idiots' is they don't tell you what they're doing. You start off with 12 'mechs, then as soon as the battle is engaged, and while you're focusing on surviving and eliminating the enemy, you don't realize that 4 pilots of death machines have decided they are not actual warriors, but instead chauffeurs.

Then YOU die, but sure, they get to the base and if you're 8 remaining 'mechs have done a 'decent' enough job of keeping the enemy busy, by the time the enemy gets done killing you, it's too late.

Unfortunately, you didn't HAVE to die just so those 4 idiots could pad their stats.

As far as the "long tom" addition... Hmmm, if both sides had 'em going, definitely could be interesting!

Prezimonto, on 09 February 2014 - 11:59 AM, said:

Better question: why can't LRM's fire into ECM, ever(for effect), when every other weapon system can.

You can fire LRM's into ECM. It's called 'dumb firing', where you're not waiting for a lock. When I've piloted a missile boat, I've done that where an enemy has ECM, holding a ridge and practically stationary, expecting me to NOT be able to fire at them.

You can fire LRMs without a lock, you're just a lot less likely to hit, ESPECIALLY if firing at a moving target...

Khobai, on 09 February 2014 - 03:06 PM, said:

Instead of capping the object of base assault should be to destroy the other teams mobile hq. base assault should also have respawns as long as your mobile hq is intact. That puts the focus on assaulting the enemy base rather than just killing the enemy team: which is already a game mode called skirmish.

If all three gamemodes are just going to be variations of skirmish we might as well just have skirmish as the only gamemode.

First, I like the idea you have there. It would be a neat option.

Second, you can't have a big stompy robot game mode where the potential for a 'skirmish' type ending isn't possible.

Sometimes people just don't feel like standing on squares.

[Prezimonto]

Dimento Graven, on 09 February 2014 - 05:18 PM, said:

You can fire LRMs without a lock, you're just a lot less likely to hit, ESPECIALLY if firing at a moving target...

So worse than worthless when movement of any sort + giant spread = no damage and wasted missiles.

It is actually worse than just not being able to fire in most cases. You need an AFK, and or a really dumb assault pilot to get any useful damage out of dumb-fired LRMs.

Again, if direct fired weapons had a spread put on them, or even a "time to convergence" that's dictated by acquiring a target lock, ECM would be seen a totally and wildly broken by every person in the game, not just people using LRM's. It's a system that for all intents and purposes totally shuts down a main weapon in the game... for 1.5 tons, no risk, and no skill.

Edited by Prezimonto, 09 February 2014 - 08:53 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Prezimonto, on 09 February 2014 - 08:49 PM, said:

So worse than worthless when movement of any sort + giant spread = no damage and wasted missiles.

Not really, no. Less effective, yes, but definitely NOT worthless.

I suppose you have to be skilled enough to not be completely reliant upon computer guidance.

Most of the LRM users I've seen aren't skilled, just sit there and lob round after round hoping the computer gets the kill for them so they can feel more '1ee7z', or whatever...

Quote

It is actually worse than just not being able to fire in most cases. You need an AFK, and or a really dumb assault pilot to get any useful damage out of dumb-fired LRMs.

Yes this is most effective against unskilled pilots, but it's also effective against distracted players not paying attention to what's going on around them. After all, non-locked missiles fired on a target, as far as I know, don't give an "Incoming Missiles" warning from Bitching Betty, and that can really perturb people.

Quote

Again, if direct fired weapons had a spread put on them, or even a "time to convergence" that's dictated by acquiring a target lock, ECM would be seen a totally and wildly broken by every person in the game, not just people using LRM's. It's a system that for all intents and purposes totally shuts down a main weapon in the game... for 1.5 tons, no risk, and no skill.

Missiles are little risk, and little skill weapons, so why shouldn't the counter (limited to a very few 'mechs, btw, unlike your LRMs) also require no risk and no skill? Of course one SKILLED spotter can eliminate all your troubles, but of course, you're reliant on HIS skill, not your own in that situation.

I don't feel sorry for people who use missiles as their primary weapon.

Anything that is a simple, "point in the general direction of your target, let the computer do the rest", doesn't really deserve to any more easy than it already is.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 09 February 2014 - 09:07 PM.

[Prezimonto]

Dimento Graven, on 09 February 2014 - 09:06 PM, said:

Yes this is most effective against unskilled pilots,

Missiles are little risk, and little skill weapons,

The largest problem with unguided LRM's is that they can't be guided... if you fire at the feet of a tall slow mech as they advance you have a decent chance to hit the torso by the time the missiles arrive. Any mech moving faster than "slow" or turning will completely avoid them. Any mech standing still in a fight "distracted" is piloted by someone who's not very good.

So yes, unguided LRM's only work against bad assault pilots.

If you think missiles are little risk and little skill you haven't played with LRM's lately. It takes a great deal more map and situation awareness than any direct fired weapon to use them to any good affect. Also, "skill" as you seem to think it should be defined is moving your cross-hair over a target and pushing the mouse button. Hardly more difficult that using LRM's.

If you're just disdainful of players using something other than the "best' weapons then you've made my case for me.

If, however, you truly feel that "skill" in this game is dictated by the ability to put your cross-hair over a mech and click a button then wouldn't it take even more skill to learn the game if we didn't have perfect and automatic convergence? Wouldn't any good direct fired user have a giant point of pride if he could juggle 3 different aim points to achieve perfect convergence? It sounds to me like your direct fired weapons are, "point in the general direction of your target, and let the computer do the rest" already because your mech magically aligns every one of your weapons to hit your cross hair with no time lag, wait period, target information, or... oh.. .skill.

[M0rpHeu5]

Turrets are op couse they don't suffer from hit registration problems.

[Rovertoo]

I love them! (Though they could stand to be a slight bit less accurate) It makes Assault feel like your team is actually Assaulting a base! I do think that capturing the base should preferable to killing everyone on the map in assault, now that bases feel like bases.

[Gladewolf]

Dimento Graven, on 09 February 2014 - 05:18 PM, said:

The problem with those 'idiots' is they don't tell you what they're doing. You start off with 12 'mechs, then as soon as the battle is engaged, and while you're focusing on surviving and eliminating the enemy, you don't realize that 4 pilots of death machines have decided they are not actual warriors, but instead chauffeurs.

Then YOU die, but sure, they get to the base and if you're 8 remaining 'mechs have done a 'decent' enough job of keeping the enemy busy, by the time the enemy gets done killing you, it's too late.

Unfortunately, you didn't HAVE to die just so those 4 idiots could pad their stats.

Your base capture team are not the only players on the field responsible for communication. We could all use more of it in PuGs no matter the mode or tactic involved. So maybe I should just expand this to let's not pretend base cappers caused all of the woes in the universe? I mean what's next? Base cappers are responsible for the Affordable Care Act? Water Gate? Perhaps even the second shooter on the grassy knoll? Winning a match is not stat padding...stat padding is shooting at players for kills instead of defending ones base as one should....and as a result, LOSING the match.

[ShinVector]

Dimento Graven, on 07 February 2014 - 07:43 AM, said:

I'm going to do something I rarely do, and give away a 'winning' strategy, one that works, one that works even with pugs (having done it myself at least twice, so far), so here you go:

How to Deal with Turrets (the cheap and easy way):

1. Get one semi-decent light or fast medium pilot.
2. Get one semi-decent long range equipped (ERPPC/PPC, ERLL, AC) 'mech of any other size.

The light/fast medium gets within the 450m "pop up" zone of the first turret. Long range 'mech sits at around 800m and does 150 points of damage to popped up turret. Between 3 and 5 rounds later, dead turret, move on to next one.

The nice thing is, as your attacking the turrets, the enemy receives base under attack messages and potentially you have broken the 'death ball', even if you don't kill off all the turrets.

Actually I believe the laser turrets can be possibly easily dealt with 'alone' with the use of buildings and timing.
Turret fires at you, you hide behind building...
Turret cool down ? You shoot turret...

However ! Enemy mechs and the LRM turrets won't let you do this in peace though.

[Team Leader]

I haven't touched the game for months, but I think turrets are great.

[Void Angel]

Personally, I find the turrets to be a good thing overall - they may need to adjust the number/mechanics of the turrets a bit, but it provides an obstacle to just running around the edge of the map and camping on the base. The turrets are still easily destroyed, especially through teamwork - which they should be. They're just there to lend a bit of complexity for the base capture mechanic and move base capping from being a trivial task to simply being easy.

[Dimento Graven]

Prezimonto, on 09 February 2014 - 09:23 PM, said:

The largest problem with unguided LRM's is that they can't be guided... if you fire at the feet of a tall slow mech as they advance you have a decent chance to hit the torso by the time the missiles arrive. Any mech moving faster than "slow" or turning will completely avoid them. Any mech standing still in a fight "distracted" is piloted by someone who's not very good.

So yes, unguided LRM's only work against bad assault pilots.

And that's how you tell the difference between a SKILLED LRM user and a NON-skilled LRM user. A SKILLED LRM user will fire missiles to where the target 'mech will most likely be. The UNSKILLED LRM user absolutely can't function without a lock.

Quote

If you think missiles are little risk and little skill you haven't played with LRM's lately. It takes a great deal more map and situation awareness than any direct fired weapon to use them to any good affect. Also, "skill" as you seem to think it should be defined is moving your cross-hair over a target and pushing the mouse button. Hardly more difficult that using LRM's.

Oh PUH-LEASE, of the 70 odd 'mechs in my garage, I've got AT LEAST 7 different missile boats, I "KNOW" quite a bit about missile boats, and what it takes to pilot one, and what it takes to get kills.

In levels of skill required, we have starting with the LEAST skilled required order:

1. Arti/Air strikes, MG's, Flamers
2. LRMs
3. Streaks
4. Lasers
5. AC/2, AC/5, Ultra AC/5
6. AC10, LBX10
7. ERPPC/PPC and AC20 (both equally difficult due to extremely slow speed)
8. Gauss
9. SRM

I've racked up kills with LRMs and I can tell you they're some of the EASIEST kills I've ever got. Sit back 800m behind cover, wait for people to target, launch a round, see if the lock holds, and if it hits. Then begin the salvos until that situation changes or the target is dead.

The HARDEST part about LRM boats is NOT running out of ammo.

Quote

If you're just disdainful of players using something other than the "best" weapons then you've made my case for me.

No, I'm disdainful of anyone who attempts to make it seem like LRM use is a '1337' skill and that the way missiles work now needs to be changed to make it even easier.

You want to discuss missiles with any real objectivity, I'm all for it, but don't sit there and intimate that it's too hard to use LRMs and they need buffs. Quite the contrary, I believe they're currently about as balanced as they have ever been.

Quote

If, however, you truly feel that "skill" in this game is dictated by the ability to put your cross-hair over a mech and click a button then wouldn't it take even more skill to learn the game if we didn't have perfect and automatic convergence? Wouldn't any good direct fired user have a giant point of pride if he could juggle 3 different aim points to achieve perfect convergence? It sounds to me like your direct fired weapons are, "point in the general direction of your target, and let the computer do the rest" already because your mech magically aligns every one of your weapons to hit your cross hair with no time lag, wait period, target information, or... oh.. .skill.

Yeah and with that comment alone, you've shown how little experience you have with using gauss, or any slow moving ballistic/energy weapon (AC20, AC10, ERPPC/PPC) at 'range.'

The difficulty in hitting a moving target while moving with any non-laser direct fire is such a different order of magnitude than with LRMs it's really not even worth discussing. In the open, anything that isn't a fast moving light/medium is going to be hit by LRMs. With LRMs, all you have to do is hold your cursor in the box while missiles are in flight, and unless the target moves out of range, or is able to find cover, or is taking advantage of craptastic hit detection of very fast 'mechs, you're guaranteed a hit. Now, try the same with an AC10, AC20, gauss, or PPC where you are dependent on your own judgment on how far to lead the target, worry about terrain moving you or your target unexpectedly and you begin to see just how much the computer is doing for you with those LRMs.

Attempting to compare the skill needed to hit with LRMs verses hitting with those other weapons is ludicrous...

Edited by Dimento Graven, 10 February 2014 - 12:41 AM.

[NextGame]

Ghost Badger, on 07 February 2014 - 07:06 AM, said:

So, after dropping nothing but Assault last night for several hours, I was only able to get a map with turrets once.

In that one map I was piloting an Ember. I played around in a brawl for a little bit near the saddles, and took a few hits, but armor was only yellow.

Then I decided to take a peek at their base with another light...

And the turrets there hit more accurately and with longer duration than any of the opposing team.

The turrets stripped armor off, and turned things cherry red. I was not directly engaging them...I was chasing a spider around who was ignoring me...I was moving at 136 kph and giving the turrets only occasional opportunities for shots...which they never missed.

I admit...I was surprised at their effectiveness...and I'm not terribly sure I like it. The lasers hit and stayed on target every shot, for the full duration. As a light...that's an issue. I can see capping in assault getting ignored...a hypothetical a few days ago I didn't give any credence.

Community, your thoughts?

Base apparatus is something thats going to evolve, and crimson/river city day assault are just a trial run, so im not overly worried at this point.

However:

Having watched some tart in a raven go and hide amongst his turrets for the last 8 minutes from a match vs 6 guys and wait out the game, wasting everyone's time, im not particularly favourable towards their current iteration.

Turret operators should "abandon their posts in fear" if your team has fewer than #x mechs.

Edited by NextGame, 10 February 2014 - 12:47 AM.

[Cavendish]

As mostly light pilot, I think the turrets are "ok", but the LRMs should be replaced with SRMs due to the whole "fire support base" thing thats a slight problem now. They are there to defend the base, not to act as bonus LRM cover.

When it comes to the whole LRM/Balistic/Energy skill debate, I have to disagree with you when it comes to two weapons Dimento.

Gauss, skill? Really? It takes skill to press down your button for a second to get a lightspeed projectile to hit? Against a locust maybe but not against anything at medium or above. Main skill for a gauss user is to not waste shots.

AC20s are now back to where they belong, brawling (and AC40 instakilling lights who dont move) and as such require less skill then LRMs or Gauss. Of course, if you insist on trying to use it as a sniper weapon, it requires rediculous amounts of skills and do very little damage at such ranges in any case compared to close quarters.

That being said, LRMs are in a good place now from what Ive seen using them on and off /shrug. Potential to hurt people caught in the open, very difficult to use effectivly agains people using terrain and cover.

[Prezimonto]

Dimento Graven, on 10 February 2014 - 12:39 AM, said:

And that's how you tell the difference between a SKILLED LRM user and a NON-skilled LRM user. A SKILLED LRM user will fire missiles to where the target 'mech will most likely be. The UNSKILLED LRM user absolutely can't function without a lock.

Oh PUH-LEASE, of the 70 odd 'mechs in my garage, I've got AT LEAST 7 different missile boats, I "KNOW" quite a bit about missile boats, and what it takes to pilot one, and what it takes to get kills.

In levels of skill required, we have starting with the LEAST skilled required order:

1. Arti/Air strikes, MG's, Flamers
2. LRMs
3. Streaks
4. Lasers
5. AC/2, AC/5, Ultra AC/5
6. AC10, LBX10
7. ERPPC/PPC and AC20 (both equally difficult due to extremely slow speed)
8. Gauss
9. SRM

I've racked up kills with LRMs and I can tell you they're some of the EASIEST kills I've ever got. Sit back 800m behind cover, wait for people to target, launch a round, see if the lock holds, and if it hits. Then begin the salvos until that situation changes or the target is dead.

The HARDEST part about LRM boats is NOT running out of ammo.

No, I'm disdainful of anyone who attempts to make it seem like LRM use is a '1337' skill and that the way missiles work now needs to be changed to make it even easier.

You want to discuss missiles with any real objectivity, I'm all for it, but don't sit there and intimate that it's too hard to use LRMs and they need buffs. Quite the contrary, I believe they're currently about as balanced as they have ever been.

Yeah and with that comment alone, you've shown how little experience you have with using gauss, or any slow moving ballistic/energy weapon (AC20, AC10, ERPPC/PPC) at 'range.'

The difficulty in hitting a moving target while moving with any non-laser direct fire is such a different order of magnitude than with LRMs it's really not even worth discussing. In the open, anything that isn't a fast moving light/medium is going to be hit by LRMs. With LRMs, all you have to do is hold your cursor in the box while missiles are in flight, and unless the target moves out of range, or is able to find cover, or is taking advantage of craptastic hit detection of very fast 'mechs, you're guaranteed a hit. Now, try the same with an AC10, AC20, gauss, or PPC where you are dependent on your own judgment on how far to lead the target, worry about terrain moving you or your target unexpectedly and you begin to see just how much the computer is doing for you with those LRMs.

Attempting to compare the skill needed to hit with LRMs verses hitting with those other weapons is ludicrous...

For the record, I've argued, passionately, in many threads that LRM's need a total rework. I understand that large missile boats (40+ missiles) are way too good against large targets, particularly with effective support. The problem with LRM's is that they're very not good when using low numbers of missiles (which is what most mechs are designed to carry). All the counters make lobbing smaller numbers of missile very ineffective and combined with the long lock and flight times they're, again, worse than worthless as you have to expose yourself and/or at least not defend yourself with much torso twisting.

The problem arises because there is a disparity between lots of missiles and few missiles in their usefulness. Most direct fire weapons scale up linearly in viability (or more in the case of AC weapons). Meaning a few is okay and more is better. With LRM's a few is wasted tonnage in most situations and more is useful, but not great. Compare to AC's/PPC's where for the most part they're good weapons when used singly, and become great weapons used in multiples.

So the problem becomes LRM boats, and the solution could include many parts. The game has been totally broken in favor of missiles at several points, but the problem has almost always been the mechs with huge amounts of missiles.

I usually argue that LRM's need some kind of a limit/nerf that will reign in the bulk utility of many tube mechs, but allow for the addition of faster or accelerating flight times, damage tweaks, and a restructuring of ECM so it significantly slows locks and speeds up the loss of locks instead of totally eliminates locks.

Limits to boats that I've seen include bone targeting, This solution is hated by lots of players for the randomness, but I'd gladly trade the ability to actually hit and deal damage(buff speed/damage ect.), somewhere, on a mech instead of maybe hitting and doing some damage spread around the upper portion of the mech.

The other idea I've seen is heavily limiting the number of tubes that mechs have on launchers so there are very few actual LRM boats (40+ tubes). This could take several forms, including limiting the number of tubes to stock variant and/or limiting SRM/LRM hardpoints to that type of missile. This would make the handful of purpose built variants in the game more appealing, and also limit the ability of mechs like the stalker to keep from filling up on LRM60+.

I'll also note that I play with all weapons in the game (and have for a long time) and I agree SRM's are in really bad place, but the gauss is just fine, I regularly rack up 400+ damage with single gauss builds and usually manage around 3 kills with dual gauss, even post charge mechanic. The trick is to stop brawling with it, you need 300 to 400m range, you'll get chewed up by better brawling weapons/explosion/ the need to make trick shots in close with the limited hold time.(which is adding in a layer of skill, much like LRM's that has nothing to do with aiming and everything to do with positioning and awareness) The buff to the speed of the round was a huge deal. The AC20 is still my go to weapon as well for brawling... stop trying to use it over 270 meters and it's barely changed in lead time from before. I acknowledge that the AC10 is a bit of dog at the moment, but the LBX10's are great weapons if you can aim and hit stripped armor (punch like at least a gauss for less tons and more ammo).... so they're really quite good when mixed with other weapons.

Anyway... the long and short, it's not okay to say LRM's are easy mode without taking a look at more issues. They're not really in a good place under the conditions that most mechs can equip them, to the point that the tonnage spend on LRM's is almost always better spent on something else, unless all you're doing is using LRM's.

Last thought. You ignored the fact that direct fire weapons are essentially computer driven skill as well(perfect, automatic convergence for all hardpoints). LRM's actually to take real skill to use, but the skill isn't hand-eye coordination, it's timing, map knowledge, ammo conservation, range judgement, learning to dance while keeping a cross hair on a target for 10 seconds without dying. Just because direct fire weapons require a modicum more hand-eye coordination does not make them more "skillful" weapons. It doesn't even make using them "hard" because you have much fewer variables to deal with, like... exposure time of both yourself and the enemy, the enemies proximity to ECM, numbers of AMS in the area. Any mech that's not moving fast and in the open(where you say LRM's are good) is a free lunch for direct fire weapons as well as LRM's, which will be fired faster and arrive sooner, deal pin-point damage, expose the person attacking for much less time and not be countered by a variety of other mechanics. So suggesting that mech's in the open get eaten alive is fine... but any weapon with decent range can mange that.

PS: after reading this I realize I'm way off topic here, and I agree there's better places to have this discussion. I wanted to toss a last post in so you know I'm just a rosy "LURMs need love" guy. There's layers here that need addressing.

Edited by Prezimonto, 10 February 2014 - 06:20 AM.

[Bhelogan]

I would just like to see a good reward for destroying turrets. That would provide motivation to destroy them beyond just to get to their base and cap it.

[Tenpin]

I find it a crying shame that PGI had to put AI turrets into Assault because a majority of people can't wrap their heads around dedicated base defense as a role to play during a match.

The game mechanics weren't broken, the players were.

[Prezimonto]

Tenpin, on 10 February 2014 - 06:12 AM, said:

I find it a crying shame that PGI had to put AI turrets into Assault because a majority of people can't wrap their heads around dedicated base defense as a role to play during a match.

The game mechanics weren't broken, the players were.

The issue isn't players, it's more than the most effective thing to do in most matches is to ball up and kill the other guy in favorable terrain. That leads to about 1:5 matches being a loss to cap (particularly on huge maps).

I think turrets are a good first step to actually differentiating the Assault, as they beef up the "main objectives" into tough nuts to crack I predict that we'll start to see the team that camps the best be the winner.

I would love to see them add actual bases, with secondary objectives. So the advancing team would have to hunt down things like radar sites, power supplies, bonuses... give players incentives to doing something other than death ball, once the meta gets stale again.