110 replies to this topic

[Jman5]

There has been a lot of hemming and hawing over the last year about what to do about jump snipers, pinpoint precision weapons, and PPCs specifically.

If PPCs are central to a lot of these problematic builds, why not just reduce the raw damage of PPC's? This way you reduce the overall damage of these high alpha pinpoint builds, increase Time to Kill, lower the amount of 1-hit item crits, and create better balance for weapons that aren't as accurate.

Instead of 10 damage, make the PPC do 8 damage.

PGI has shown they are willing to alter damage values for SRMs, LRMs, machine guns, and lasers. Why not change the PPC to something a little lower? 10+ precision damage introduces a whole new advantage that doesn't exist on weapons that are less than 10. You automatically 1-hit kill items any time you crit an exposed component.

Even if alternative lasers+ballistic builds have technically better DPS or damage/heat, you can't just slap Large Lasers on a jump sniper and continue business as usual. You have to use PPCs for your energy slots.

KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid)

Edited by Jman5, 07 February 2014 - 01:45 PM.

[627]

have to admit sometimes a simple solution is a good idea...

[Roughneck45]

Because PPC's only dominate when combined with JJ's.

JJ's need a nerf.

SRMs need a buff/fix.

Then we can look at changing other weapons. The PPC may not be a problem if they address those other two issues first.

Edited by Roughneck45, 07 February 2014 - 01:58 PM.

[Mcgral18]

I think that was one of the biggest mistakes when it came to weapons, the PPC should be doing 10 damage over 10 seconds, or 20 damage with doubled armor to be it's TT equivolent. Now, an extra 5 damage isn't game breaking, but the fact all the weapons hit the same pixel is the issue. Had they made it do 5 damage every 5 seconds, we would have a different outcome including no doubled armor needed.

Changing the damage and the recycle would be a nice place to start, since they won't be touching convergeance.

[Stelar 7]

JJ do not need a nerf. Seriously..

PPC reduced damage is a better fix than any other's I've read but I don't see they are broken. ER PPC, super hot, regular, useless at <90 meters. (Well they will still strip ECM at that range but basically useless).

[Trauglodyte]

The PPC doing 10 damage is really fine. The issues that the game has really revolve around pin point damage (PPC), range (PPC), certain mechs being able to abuse the first two mechanics while retaining cover (JJs), the lack of heat penalties, and broken weapons (SRMs and Pulse weapons) or weapons with poor mechanics (LRMs). The PPC could use a bit of splash and a lot of us, and I've been one of the louder ones I think, are for it. Hell, a lot of the top groups are tired of using the damned things. It isn't so much the PPC that is the issue but rather that you gain a lot and lose nothing for bringing one to the fight. It's akin to using a .22 in combat was the M-4 is a much better weapon (ie, never shoot a large caliber man with a small caliber weapon).

I guarantee you that if we had appropriate heat penalties, JJs weren't as monstrous as they are, and other weapons worked much better than they do, nobody would worry about PPCs.



PS> On the ER, you could still apply splash but reduce the diameter of the splash while also making the velocity a bit faster. You've improved the weapon three ways without making it the next go to weapon.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 07 February 2014 - 02:23 PM.

[Bhael Fire]

JJ do not need a nerf...and neither do PPCs.

The offending mechs that abuse these things need the nerf.

More specifically, JJ should not make heavy and assault mechs as agile as they do. It should literally require twice as many JJ as it currently does to make these mechs this agile.

[xMEPHISTOx]

Roughneck45, on 07 February 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

JJ's need a nerf.

SRMs need a buff/fix.

No reason to go all in, I think that a buff to brawlers, primarily srm's would be sufficient in alleviating whatever problems are imagined with jump snipers, and if not maybe then look into other avenues of change.

[Trauglodyte]

Bhael Fire, on 07 February 2014 - 02:25 PM, said:

JJ do not need a nerf...and neither do PPCs.

The offending mechs that abuse these things need the nerf.

More specifically, JJ should not make heavy and assault mechs as agile as they do. It should literally require twice as many JJ as it currently does to make these mechs this agile.

Well, I think it is a combination of both things, Bael. Right now, there isn't a balanced equation for building mechs. We've got rules but no point allocations for the combination of armor, weapon points, JJs, speed capabilities, agility, modules, and stats. It is why so many mech vs mech comparisons are all over the place. But, we're also saddled by canon so there isn't much that you can do about it in some cases. The Jenner shouldn't be the moster that it is but it is because it isn't balanced against other mechs like it. The Highlander is the best Assault mech, period, and obsceletes the Atlas because of hard points, hard point locations, and JJs.

That being said, right now, the biggest baddest and best mechs are all JJ capable. The primary issue really revolves around 1) fuel is constant and recharges too fast, 2) there are physics for everything in game except for thrust acceleration, and 3) forward speed translates to and with JJing. We're playing in a world where 1 JJ is the same as 12 and some mechs have better weapon locations (Highlander) than others. Plus, JJ turning speed is equal to torso twisting speed which is based on a calculation of mech weight and engine size which ISN'T impacted by the number of JJs or, as mentioned earlier, thrust acceleration or capacity. JJs will get nerfed but it really just needs to get put back to pre-buff (Open Beta) levels with an acceleration addition and a turning fix.

[3rdworld]

I am of the opinion that there is not just 1 right answer. I think there are many changes they could make to change the effectiveness of poptarting.

But thus far they have chosen the "set on my hands" method.

[Deathlike]

3rdworld, on 07 February 2014 - 02:48 PM, said:

But thus far they have chosen the "sit on my hands" method.

Fixed for you.

Let's be honest, sometimes even people like PGI like to overengineer solutions to simple problems. Ghost heat is #1 in everyone's mind.

[Trauglodyte]

If poptarting was difficult akin to how people perceive the new Gauss Rifle and AC20s, then it would be acceptable. Fighting you guys last night was actually fun, 3rd, and while you had the typical 12v12 drop mix of Highlanders and 3Ds, I still didn't notice you all doing that much poptarting. It has a level of effectiveness when needed but it shouldn't be THE best game play. So, PGI has to figure out a way to get JJs to be more maneuver based, ranged weapons to be used more for just range, and fix the weapons that work best up close. LOTS of moving parts and I wonder if they're not suffering from paralysis of analysis where they're worried too much about screwing things up with such a beloved franchise. I can't say that I blame them.

[Deathsani]

I think it could work. But I think their is a better solution that will limit the viability of these builds.

Edited by Deathsani, 07 February 2014 - 03:00 PM.

[Rebas Kradd]

I don't necessarily have a problem with the meta Ghost Heat has created (assuming JJ get a common-sense nerf).

I just want to know WHY it was implemented. That's the frustrating thing. We're not told WHY about things often enough. Reducing PPC damage does seem to make a lot of sense...although, TBH, it's not the only energy weapon that can tilt the field if boated.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 07 February 2014 - 03:01 PM.

[TehSBGX]

I'm leaning more towards half of a PPCs damage get spread out in a splash effect. It seems like a good comprimise. :/

[Varent]

Roughneck45, on 07 February 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

Because PPC's only dominate when combined with JJ's.

JJ's need a nerf.

SRMs need a buff/fix.

Then we can look at changing other weapons. The PPC may not be a problem if they address those other two issues first.

This.

Why is it so hard for people to realize jump jets are the problem here.

[Bishop Steiner]

Because with doubled armor, we should not have to? Some of us fear that damage reduction will simply lead to PapercutWarrior Online, in which all weapons essentially do laughable damage (kind of like the medium laser in MW4)

Equally easy a solution would be to simply extend the cooldown. Yes, the DPS might be the same or worse than if you reduce the damage, but DPS has never been a reliable way to judge efficacy.

What's truly laughable to me though, is that the PPC should NEED further nerfing. It's projectile speed is pathetic, so it is mediocre at long range. I has a 90 meter minimum range, so it is useless at PBR and Light mechs laugh at you. Even more so, it doesn't even do EMP damage under 90 meters anymore (or is that upcoming? TBH, I forget), so you can't even use it to negate ECM and fire streaks at the little boogers anymore.

You call for simple (which IS a nice step away from Paul's convoluted Bizarro World solutions.), but those "solutions" are still just bandaids for the underlying arterial flow (and leaves other issues like the ballistics front loaded damage and poptarting unaddressed). In reality what you think is simple is a compromise, and compromise "solutions" almost always leave nobody satisfied.

Proper sized hard points, removal of pinpoint convergence for a start are needed solutions, along with a rethought heat threshold. Slow down the cooldown of ALL weapons a second or two, (which worked lovely in MW3 and 4) and you have fixed 90% of the combat mechanic issues. (of course bad hti box design, HSR and other things are a differing tale)

You even conceivably could bring armor back in line with TT and this in turn would finally make mechs like the Panther actually viable in MWO. Final step would be a smart fix to the JJs, which is quite simply scaling their thrust in line with the number they have, weighted toward the upper end, instead of the bottom, so a single JJ would be next to useless,while the last few JJs added would actually significantly increase thrust. This would simultaneously hit poptarting relatively hard (especially in tandem with convergence being addressed).

Sorry for diverging so heavily from your idea, but while simple in and of itself is good, I think what we want to call the "simple fixes" really are not the fixes this game needs.

[Zolaz]

Dude, PGI needs to do something about the pop tart meta ... a shame the devs cant get a game or two in. Hell, I'd love to see a 12 man PGI team do anything, besides get smoked. Oh well, if you cant play the game or program it, I guess you can still collect a paycheck. GJ PGI.

[LastPaladin]

Roughneck45, on 07 February 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

Because PPC's only dominate when combined with JJ's.

JJ's need a nerf.

SRMs need a buff/fix.

Then we can look at changing other weapons. The PPC may not be a problem if they address those other two issues first.

Makes sense. Poptarting within 270m would be a bit harder if people were firing clouds of "surface to air" missiles at you, instantly, without having to lock on.

As for the jumpjets, I like the suggestion others have made to just make the thrust scale logarithmically, so you get more benefits from equipping multiple jump jets. I don't mind assaults getting a good maneuverability increase from packing a single jump jet, but they should have to invest more tonnage in jets to make a viable poptart, so that strictly ground-based fighters can get a significant firepower advantage over them.

[Khobai]

Roughneck45, on 07 February 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

Because PPC's only dominate when combined with JJ's.

JJ's need a nerf.

SRMs need a buff/fix.

Then we can look at changing other weapons. The PPC may not be a problem if they address those other two issues first.

No. JJs arnt the problem. Even if JJs didn't exist at all, ppcs and acs would still utterly dominate. The problem is the same as it's always been: pinpoint alphas. Reduce pinpoint damage and poptarts will no longer be a threat. More than 20 damage to one location just shouldn't be allowed. And you don't even have to lower damage on ppcs just make them spread a portion of their damage to adjacent locations.

Also srms need far more than a buff. They need a complete overhaul. Srms arnt dumbfire and should be guided like lrms. Only mrms and rockets are dumbfire in battletech.

Edited by Khobai, 07 February 2014 - 04:55 PM.