PGI has always been straight forward about most aspects of the game, i.e. explaining exactly how ghost heat works and its effects, they were fairly clear on how ELO is implemented and calculated for the most part. Its also kept certain things from us to protect the integrity of the game like Elo values to limit exploitation of the match maker. Ghost heat obviously doesn't qualify as protected information since every single time a value changed its been so clearly explained in all the patch notes where changes to it have been made.
I see some people wanting to keep pertinent information from new players that would adversely limit their effectiveness in the field. What's worse, and I suspect the big unspoken motivator behind these expressed desires is that beyond limiting new players ability to compete, it would allow experienced players who have the knowledge, and no scruples, to actively exploit newer players ignorance.
Knowing the effect making that information difficult to find has, I can only conclude that the motivations of those against informing new players is disingenuous to put it mildly.
All that said, this long after launch, its a pretty sad state of affairs when the official site can't hold a candle to smurfy. They should just put smurfy on payroll or offer him every item in the game for free to use his site as part of the official FAQ....
3
It Is Ludicrous That "heat Scaling" Is Not Documented.
Started by Victor Morson, Feb 07 2014 12:46 PM
174 replies to this topic
#142
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Posted 09 February 2014 - 02:11 PM
Victor Morson, on 09 February 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:
All good points; warning boxes for more things than Ghost Heat would be exceptional. "Warning: You have no ammo for <X Weapon>" would be a great thing for everyone.
I'm sure everyone here has done that before!
Sandpit, on 09 February 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:
While that may be true, that doesn't apply to this kind of example. Those examples are purely subjective and based on personal opinion, not a fact such as the known thief example
LOTS of people say energy weapons are useless (along with SRMs, SSRMs, LRMs, NARC, etc., etc., etc.) but that doesn't make it true. It only makes it true for them personally. Those opinions will vary based on experience, macth records, loadouts (a loadout on a mech may not work for a player while another one will on the same mech)
This is why collecting meaningful data is so difficult, especially when you don't have factual data to work from. The whole "Every game ends in a stomp" thread is actually what kicked a lot of this off for me. I like to be an optimist. Therefore I like to think (until proven different) that most people simply don't understand how statistics and data collection work and why
40+ matches over 48 hours resulting in 4 stomps does not in any way shape or form prove anything other than the player was involved in 4 stomps.
So I posted information on how statistics actually work and why you can't perform data collection like that and have it taken seriously by anyone that is either unbiased OR understands how stats work. That's getting a bit off-topic though but I'm just trying to get more people to understand why it isn't personal and better yet why their data isn't always taken seriously
Agreed. I've completely forgotten to load ammo when putting a new build together before
This should get posted in the feedback thread. +1
LOTS of people say energy weapons are useless (along with SRMs, SSRMs, LRMs, NARC, etc., etc., etc.) but that doesn't make it true. It only makes it true for them personally. Those opinions will vary based on experience, macth records, loadouts (a loadout on a mech may not work for a player while another one will on the same mech)
This is why collecting meaningful data is so difficult, especially when you don't have factual data to work from. The whole "Every game ends in a stomp" thread is actually what kicked a lot of this off for me. I like to be an optimist. Therefore I like to think (until proven different) that most people simply don't understand how statistics and data collection work and why
40+ matches over 48 hours resulting in 4 stomps does not in any way shape or form prove anything other than the player was involved in 4 stomps.
So I posted information on how statistics actually work and why you can't perform data collection like that and have it taken seriously by anyone that is either unbiased OR understands how stats work. That's getting a bit off-topic though but I'm just trying to get more people to understand why it isn't personal and better yet why their data isn't always taken seriously
Agreed. I've completely forgotten to load ammo when putting a new build together before
This should get posted in the feedback thread. +1
http://twitter.com/r...637444433784832
It's on it's way Victor!
Edited by Imperius, 09 February 2014 - 02:12 PM.
#143
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Posted 10 February 2014 - 07:20 AM
Quote
not one new "green" player lending their voice to proclaim the existence and the mechanics behind ghost heat to be so vexing as to leave them dumbfounded.
Generally because said green players have no idea why they shut down easier some games than others. I've had people on Terra Therma who didn't comprehend what environmental heat was and why they melted in lava.
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Posted 10 February 2014 - 07:33 AM
wanderer, on 10 February 2014 - 07:20 AM, said:
Generally because said green players have no idea why they shut down easier some games than others. I've had people on Terra Therma who didn't comprehend what environmental heat was and why they melted in lava.
And these people are the reason toasters have stickers that inform them to not use in the shower and hot coffee should not be poured over ones genitals...
Pure unadulterated hyperbole.
Yes, "some" people have comprehension issues with simple things and need to be lead around by they pink chubby hands. Far more people have at the very least a modicum of critical thinking and grasp it, even in an abstract sense.
Jeeeezus... You guys make it sound like our player base is comprised of people who have to be reminded to breath.
Edited by DaZur, 10 February 2014 - 07:34 AM.
#145
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Posted 10 February 2014 - 07:33 AM
@ Pages 4 - 8 in this thread
If I were a moderator, I woulda closed this thread a while ago. Alas I'm not, so please -- keep arguing over nothing.
If I were a moderator, I woulda closed this thread a while ago. Alas I'm not, so please -- keep arguing over nothing.
#146
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Posted 10 February 2014 - 08:34 AM
Quote
Jeeeezus... You guys make it sound like our player base is comprised of people who have to be reminded to breath.
You are now aware that you are breathing manually.
And speaking of that, without a source, how does the player know?
Walking over the caldera in Caustic causes extra heat. People don't realize it, smarter player lure them into the hotspot.
Ghost heat isn't documented. Guy next to me in the same Trial 'Mech shuts down constantly because group fire, while I mow down target after target.
Information is ammunition, and the newbie oft only has a half-filled clip at best.
#147
Posted 10 February 2014 - 08:42 AM
DaZur, on 10 February 2014 - 07:33 AM, said:
Jeeeezus... You guys make it sound like our player base is comprised of people who have to be reminded to breath.
#148
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Posted 10 February 2014 - 11:00 AM
wanderer, on 10 February 2014 - 08:34 AM, said:
You are now aware that you are breathing manually.
And speaking of that, without a source, how does the player know?
Walking over the caldera in Caustic causes extra heat. People don't realize it, smarter player lure them into the hotspot.
Ghost heat isn't documented. Guy next to me in the same Trial 'Mech shuts down constantly because group fire, while I mow down target after target.
Information is ammunition, and the newbie oft only has a half-filled clip at best.
And speaking of that, without a source, how does the player know?
Walking over the caldera in Caustic causes extra heat. People don't realize it, smarter player lure them into the hotspot.
Ghost heat isn't documented. Guy next to me in the same Trial 'Mech shuts down constantly because group fire, while I mow down target after target.
Information is ammunition, and the newbie oft only has a half-filled clip at best.
To clarify... I have never said MW:O does not need some transparency and clarity. I do have issue however with the intelligentsia's premise that all new players are incapable of drawing some abstract from the cause and effect from general game play.
Absolutely... Give them some form of warning or a brief caution that what they are about to do has repercussions...
They don't need a graphical formulary and GUI slide rule to allow them to calculate the flipping additional heat index.
New players new "help" and "explanation"... Not their bottoms wiped and boo-boos healed with butterfly kisses.
#149
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Posted 10 February 2014 - 11:36 AM
I don't think you guys appreciate how f***ing convoluted the heat scale system is. Its not like you can tell the noobs: "Hey don't fire more than X weapons at the same time or else you'll generate too much heat."
This stupidly unnecessary complex system has exceptions upon exceptions with hidden rules imbedded in them. A "form of warning or a brief caution" won't even begin to scratch the surface of the true mess that is the heat scale. Every single weapon in this game has its own unique heat penalty threshold. That's 24 weapons that generate heat (excluding mg and gauss), 24 different heat penalty thresholds that you think will be sufficiently explained with a warning/caution for new players (hell...even the veteran players too)??? Hell! I haven't even touched what happens when you fire certain combinations of weapons or chain fired others.
It is amazing that we as a community have to even DISCUSS documentation of the heat-scale system. That's an automatic, no-brainer, must have item for any game with a complex system as the heat-scale. This is basic cow paddies for crying out loud. PGI has had 6 months to document this "feature" in-game, in a tutorial, and on the website. 6 months later what does PGI have to show for their documentation efforts...a couple of forum posts...
This stupidly unnecessary complex system has exceptions upon exceptions with hidden rules imbedded in them. A "form of warning or a brief caution" won't even begin to scratch the surface of the true mess that is the heat scale. Every single weapon in this game has its own unique heat penalty threshold. That's 24 weapons that generate heat (excluding mg and gauss), 24 different heat penalty thresholds that you think will be sufficiently explained with a warning/caution for new players (hell...even the veteran players too)??? Hell! I haven't even touched what happens when you fire certain combinations of weapons or chain fired others.
It is amazing that we as a community have to even DISCUSS documentation of the heat-scale system. That's an automatic, no-brainer, must have item for any game with a complex system as the heat-scale. This is basic cow paddies for crying out loud. PGI has had 6 months to document this "feature" in-game, in a tutorial, and on the website. 6 months later what does PGI have to show for their documentation efforts...a couple of forum posts...
Edited by Jez, 10 February 2014 - 11:37 AM.
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Posted 10 February 2014 - 11:44 AM
DaZur, on 10 February 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:
To clarify... I have never said MW:O does not need some transparency and clarity. I do have issue however with the intelligentsia's premise that all new players are incapable of drawing some abstract from the cause and effect from general game play.
Dude, what is the point of requiring them to experiment and empirically determine what the underlying game mechanics are? I mean, sure, they COULD do those things.. but most folks won't bother.
Absolutely no value is gained, by anyone, through forcing people to figure out on their own how the game works.
Just explain how ghost heat works, exactly. There's absolutely no reason not to.
#151
Posted 10 February 2014 - 11:50 AM
Roland, on 10 February 2014 - 11:44 AM, said:
Dude, what is the point of requiring them to experiment and empirically determine what the underlying game mechanics are? I mean, sure, they COULD do those things.. but most folks won't bother.
Absolutely no value is gained, by anyone, through forcing people to figure out on their own how the game works.
Just explain how ghost heat works, exactly. There's absolutely no reason not to.
Absolutely no value is gained, by anyone, through forcing people to figure out on their own how the game works.
Just explain how ghost heat works, exactly. There's absolutely no reason not to.
I guess the simple question I keep coming back to Roland is, "Why?"
WHy does 3 weapons that generate 30 get penalized but Joe's 5 weapon Alpha get no penalty?
Well your 30 point shot all hit the same location because of how convergence works.
Joe's Weapons don't converge the same way?
No. He uses a different mix of weapons.
So why don't they fix this Convergence Problem?
Cause Ghost heat!
My 13 year old son looks at me and asks if PGI is koo koo!
#152
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Posted 10 February 2014 - 12:16 PM
Jez, on 10 February 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:
I don't think you guys appreciate how f***ing convoluted the heat scale system is. Its not like you can tell the noobs: "Hey don't fire more than X weapons at the same time or else you'll generate too much heat."
Hyperbole!
The functional abstract is just barely more complicated than telling them to not fire more than X weapons... It's the act of trying to summarize the fuzzy math behind it that is confusing. I wish folks would stop interchanging the two to justify how complicated Ghost Heat is.
You tell a 2 year-old to not touch fire because fire is hot... You don't have to explain that fire is the result of a chemical reaction and a catalysis.
Roland, on 10 February 2014 - 11:44 AM, said:
Dude, what is the point of requiring them to experiment and empirically determine what the underlying game mechanics are? I mean, sure, they COULD do those things.. but most folks won't bother.
Absolutely no value is gained, by anyone, through forcing people to figure out on their own how the game works.
Just explain how ghost heat works, exactly. There's absolutely no reason not to.
Absolutely no value is gained, by anyone, through forcing people to figure out on their own how the game works.
Just explain how ghost heat works, exactly. There's absolutely no reason not to.
Absolutely... educate them, caution them, warn them... They don't need a thesis in thermal dissipation! And this is what chaffs my arse.... Threads like this keep popping up that are prefaced like the are heralding Armageddon and the implication that every single new player is fumbling around like blind mice in a shoe box...
It's not anywhere near as complicated in application as it is in theory...
Edited by DaZur, 10 February 2014 - 12:17 PM.
#153
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Posted 10 February 2014 - 01:06 PM
DaZur, on 10 February 2014 - 12:16 PM, said:
the implication that every single new player is fumbling around like blind mice in a shoe box...
Um they are?
You can see it. I dominate champion mechs and trial mechs. I don't bother to try when I fight them, it's easy kills.
The old UI was pretty bad, the new one. Even though I know where everything is, it hurts to move through. I actually get tired of playing due to the new UI just being such a chore to use.
I don't even change mech's anymore.
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Posted 10 February 2014 - 01:20 PM
Nicholas Carlyle, on 10 February 2014 - 01:06 PM, said:
Um they are?
You can see it. I dominate champion mechs and trial mechs. I don't bother to try when I fight them, it's easy kills.
The old UI was pretty bad, the new one. Even though I know where everything is, it hurts to move through. I actually get tired of playing due to the new UI just being such a chore to use.
I don't even change mech's anymore.
How duplicitous...
They are NEW players, they could be in Trials or could have dropped major coin and kitted a meta-build... that is not going to change the fact that they are green and have to hone the fundamentals to be competent players.
A GUI that grabs their nose-ring cannot directly change that fact but I will concede that if it has the warnings and alerts as previously discussed, that would at least make them cognate of the repercussions of Ghost Heat affected builds.
No argument that the present GUI has it's deficiencies...
#155
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Posted 10 February 2014 - 01:34 PM
DaZur, on 10 February 2014 - 01:20 PM, said:
How duplicitous...
They are NEW players, they could be in Trials or could have dropped major coin and kitted a meta-build... that is not going to change the fact that they are green and have to hone the fundamentals to be competent players.
A GUI that grabs their nose-ring cannot directly change that fact but I will concede that if it has the warnings and alerts as previously discussed, that would at least make them cognate of the repercussions of Ghost Heat affected builds.
No argument that the present GUI has it's deficiencies...
They are NEW players, they could be in Trials or could have dropped major coin and kitted a meta-build... that is not going to change the fact that they are green and have to hone the fundamentals to be competent players.
A GUI that grabs their nose-ring cannot directly change that fact but I will concede that if it has the warnings and alerts as previously discussed, that would at least make them cognate of the repercussions of Ghost Heat affected builds.
No argument that the present GUI has it's deficiencies...
Major coin and kitted a meta build? A new player? I mean I guess? Maybe?
Seems like you are talking about a very small portion of new players that come to a F2P game, which lets be frank does not have stellar reviews right now, and would do that.
Most normal people will play a few games in the free mech and see if they like it before dropping "major coin".
And that's even if they can figure out how to drop in the new UI?
I haven't tested, but if you're a new player and log in for the first time, does it force you to select a mech? Or does it default to a mech? What happens?
But man, this UI...every time I play it, I get frustrated and I know what I'm doing.
I can only imagine for a new player.
And then throwing hidden game mechanics ontop of it? Dear lord.
The transparency is bad, so bad. Little tool tips at the begining of a match are not enough.
#156
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Posted 10 February 2014 - 01:47 PM
DaZur, on 10 February 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:
They don't need a graphical formulary and GUI slide rule to allow them to calculate the flipping additional heat index.
New players new "help" and "explanation"... Not their bottoms wiped and boo-boos healed with butterfly kisses.
New players new "help" and "explanation"... Not their bottoms wiped and boo-boos healed with butterfly kisses.
At the least, ghost heat needs to be accounted for in the heat efficiency. When ghost heat is enough to rapidly overwhelm a 'Mech, indicating it becomes important in Mechlab to the guy who piles four large lasers on, expecting far better cooling with all the sinks he strapped in...and then rapidly fries while chainfiring the same quartet doesn't bother him at all.
Without knowing what ghost heat is or even some kind of inkling in the Mechlab, it's gotta be confusing as heck to the non-forum types. And that's all that needs to be done. Show ghost heat in the Mechlab, explain it briefly in the loading screens. Problem solved.
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Posted 10 February 2014 - 01:50 PM
Why isn't there just big red letters...when you highlight a PPC or ER PPC it states:
If you fire 3 PPC's or ER PPC's in any combination within 2.5 seconds, you incur a heat penalty.
It's simple. And if they want more information than that, they know to come look for it.
Nothing crazy. Just simple text.
If you fire 3 PPC's or ER PPC's in any combination within 2.5 seconds, you incur a heat penalty.
It's simple. And if they want more information than that, they know to come look for it.
Nothing crazy. Just simple text.
#158
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Posted 10 February 2014 - 02:16 PM
Victor Morson, on 07 February 2014 - 12:46 PM, said:
If Ghost Heat is going to stay, GIVE IT A FREAKING UI.
it may not stay. it could just be a hot fix to gain some time to fix UI2.0, CW and clan mechs. Once profitability is obtained then a MWO 2.0 can be attempted.
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Posted 10 February 2014 - 02:16 PM
Nicholas Carlyle, on 10 February 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:
Why isn't there just big red letters...when you highlight a PPC or ER PPC it states:
If you fire 3 PPC's or ER PPC's in any combination within 2.5 seconds, you incur a heat penalty.
It's simple. And if they want more information than that, they know to come look for it.
Nothing crazy. Just simple text.
If you fire 3 PPC's or ER PPC's in any combination within 2.5 seconds, you incur a heat penalty.
It's simple. And if they want more information than that, they know to come look for it.
Nothing crazy. Just simple text.
That would be brilliantly simple... And accomplish it's goal elegantly.
That was a far more appropriately leveled question to pose in place of the "OMG my hairs on fire and isn't it ludicrous that heat scaling in not documented?!"
#160
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Posted 10 February 2014 - 11:08 PM
mwhighlander, on 10 February 2014 - 07:33 AM, said:
@ Pages 4 - 8 in this thread
If I were a moderator, I woulda closed this thread a while ago. Alas I'm not, so please -- keep arguing over nothing.
If I were a moderator, I woulda closed this thread a while ago. Alas I'm not, so please -- keep arguing over nothing.
My post should have ended the thread as solved/taken care of.
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