143 replies to this topic

[Goose]

OK: So how do you build an LuRM Boat, then?

[GalaxyBluestar]

Sandpit, on 07 February 2014 - 02:43 PM, said:

So you assume that players are newbs because they're running a trial mech?

That's interesting since I've been using that Stalker quite a bit since it was put in rotation (doing well with it also)

This is yet another example of why anecdotal evidence isn't much int he way of evidence. You have NO idea how long those players have been playing. None. 0. Not even a slight clue. To say "This has to stop, it's bad balancing because these stalkers are trial mechs and that shows me new players dropping with high elo (never mind the argument that YOU don't know YOUR elo much less anyone else's) players"

it also doesn't help that the trial mechs are also the c-bill bonus purchase mechs, some vets with their fav loadout wanting a c-bill boost maybe using it and get mistaken for new players.

[Deathlike]

GalaxyBluestar, on 07 February 2014 - 03:45 PM, said:

it also doesn't help that the trial mechs are also the c-bill bonus purchase mechs, some vets with their fav loadout wanting a c-bill boost maybe using it and get mistaken for new players.

All Champion mechs give an XP bonus (10%). Trial Champion mechs however give 0 ZERO bonus.

Edited by Deathlike, 07 February 2014 - 03:46 PM.

[Prezimonto]

627, on 07 February 2014 - 02:18 PM, said:

I get more and more matches like this.

Not only is that trial stalker ridiculously bad designed, overcomplicated to use and a death trap.

The matchmaker matches at least 6 new players against what looks like 2 3man teams and experienced players.

I'm really no one who rants on these forums and there is really much QQ - but please fix this.

At least fix the Trial mech, build a simple stalker and hotfix it in. PLEASE!

And not for me. For those new players. Who get humiliated out there. Slaughtered.


We the players can write guides and make videos and what not but this won't help those poor souls.
If you let us, we will make those damn tutorials for you but this needs to be in game, not in a thread in the forums. Help them PGI. You're our last hope!




I for one refuse to shoot at another trial stalker from now on till they are fixed.

I don't care if I lose but I won't help frighten off new players anymore.

It's entirely because they don't start new players on the bottom of the ladder, they start them in the middle. And since everyone can be matched ±1400 elo, it's entirely possibly to be matched with a bunch of new players vs. experienced.

[HeavyRain]

Give this guy a job if you haven't already, he puts in the hours anyway, white knighting all threads.

Edited by HeavyRain, 07 February 2014 - 03:48 PM.

[627]

GalaxyBluestar, on 07 February 2014 - 03:45 PM, said:

it also doesn't help that the trial mechs are also the c-bill bonus purchase mechs, some vets with their fav loadout wanting a c-bill boost maybe using it and get mistaken for new players.

This is true for the dragon or cicada but the stalker isn't released as champion yet. So 100% trial mech if you see a 3F©.

Goose, on 07 February 2014 - 03:45 PM, said:

OK: So how do you build an LuRM Boat, then?

Doesn't matter - I wouldn't for a starter mech. Despite being called noskill autoaim weapon, LRMs are not easy to use without knowing how.

Sandpit, on 07 February 2014 - 03:44 PM, said:

If you're REALLY that concerned about new players not understanding how to use it properly then give advice and tips when you see a player making mistakes.

I do. And I already did:
http://mwomercs.com/...ou-stalker-3fc/

Edited by 627, 07 February 2014 - 03:54 PM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Sandpit, on 07 February 2014 - 03:44 PM, said:

It is NOT a brawler of any kind. It's a support mech.

Man, when back when SRMs were still good, the Stalker was a goddamn monster of a brawler. 5 SRM6 + 5 ML was no freaking joke.

I miss having effective SRMs.

[FactorlanP]

Prezimonto, on 07 February 2014 - 03:47 PM, said:

It's entirely because they don't start new players on the bottom of the ladder, they start them in the middle. And since everyone can be matched ±1400 elo, it's entirely possibly to be matched with a bunch of new players vs. experienced.

I've always wondered why that is... Why put the new guy higher in the Elo rankings?

I say, stick him in at the very very bottom. Give him the very best chance to win his very first match. Hook him by letting him win more in the beginning.

If he has any skill, or is a quick study, he will jump up the Elo food chain in short order.

[Sandpit]

Kaeb Odellas, on 07 February 2014 - 03:50 PM, said:

Man, when back when SRMs were still good, the Stalker was a goddamn monster of a brawler. 5 SRM6 + 5 ML was no freaking joke.

I miss having effective SRMs.

I didn't mean Stalkers weren't brawlers, just that this particular build is not. It's a support mech. The XL engine is a good addition to this particular type of mech because it shouldn't be up front slugging it out. It should be at the rear melting faces with 60 LRM tubes and it's TAG

FactorlanP, on 07 February 2014 - 03:52 PM, said:

I've always wondered why that is... Why put the new guy higher in the Elo rankings?

I say, stick him in at the very very bottom. Give him the very best chance to win his very first match. Hook him by letting him win more in the beginning.

If he has any skill, or is a quick study, he will jump up the Elo food chain in short order.

Simple answer is that's not how elo works. You start with a base and move up or down from there.

[FactorlanP]

Sandpit, on 07 February 2014 - 03:53 PM, said:

Simple answer is that's not how elo works. You start with a base and move up or down from there.

Well, maybe for MW:O, it would be better if elo put the new guys at the bottom. Why do something simply because that's how they do it in the Chess community?

If putting a new player at the bottom of the food chain would make those early games more fun for the new player, then I say do it. Who cares that that isn't how it is normally done?

[Roland]

Sandpit, on 07 February 2014 - 03:53 PM, said:

Simple answer is that's not how elo works. You start with a base and move up or down from there.

And it was developed for chess, where a new player's pieces are exactly the same as a grand master's.

This is not the case in MWO, where a new player's mech is basically trash compared to a long time player.

[Stelar 7]

627, on 07 February 2014 - 03:24 PM, said:

...
And this is not anecdotal evidence, this is an example what I experience in the last days more and more....

I don't think you know what anecdotal evidence means, if you did not do a formal study collecting data from a broad pool with as little bias as possible, and controls for the bias, you didn't get data, you have an anecdote, or perhaps several of them. That means lots of confirmation bias.


To everyone in the stalkers side torso nonsense.

Sure they are hittable, yes I too aim for them. HOWEVER they are less hittable than most assault side torsos. Especially head on. Not an impossible shot, but twisting is very effective. If you want to teach noobs about XL this is a good mech. If you don't want noobs to have firepower, sure let em drive zombie cents. Most mechs are pretty useless after one side torso drops, especially with the gimped movement or firepower that comes with not having an XL and Endo.

Second, until there is an ez mode any mech they drop in will require skill. Until there is a every map tutorial that takes them through the likely attacks, and defense zones and teaches movement, speeds, situational awareness and all the rest, it does not matter if we give noobs a 200% armor bonus they will get rolled. And if they are smart, they will spend the next few minutes ghosting the teammates who are not dead watching.

That is the reason to let noobs drop with experienced players, they can learn from them. Take that away and noobs just get blasted a little longer along in their play experience.

[PropagandaWar]

then don't use the Stalker. Duh. New players should stay away from assaults in the first place.

[Deathlike]

I hate having to write a second reply to people who aren't getting it through their heads about why this Trial mech is bad... it has nothing to do with effectiveness in the right hand, it has everything to do with newbies not getting it on the first go.

I am a labrat... the kind some people would "affectionately" call a min/maxer. I like trying to optimize mechs like the next guy. HOWEVER, I know that people have their own styles, preference, and ideals on how they would like a mech to operate. I'm not for one to tell them that they are "wrong" in building it. I would only give "suggestions" on how to improve upon it based on what I think would help (if not just improving it the best I can w/o breaking it altogether).

The one key thing about XL engines is that the surviveability aspect that is literally traded for more firepower and ammo. The newbie typically knows nothing about this. Then, they also have to learn about LRM minimum range. Also, they will eventually find out one way or another that it isn't fire and forget, which is a core of a lot of bad LRM debates.

I'm not saying this mech isn't viable... but for a newbie, these mechanisms are not obvious to them. So what I tend to see is people making their opinion known based on their experience instead of based on what a newbie would see.

It's like arguments made from a portion of people of society that has never stepped into their target's shoes before and making comments to the contrary. It doesn't always work.

There is a reason why tutorials made these days assume you have no idea. Chances are, you might not. That is primarily why the new trial Stalker is generally not a good mech. If it had a Standard engine, it might not be a great missile boat, but a much nicer and more friendly newbie build.

[Sandpit]

Deathlike, on 07 February 2014 - 04:05 PM, said:

I hate having to write a second reply to people who aren't getting it through their heads about why this Trial mech is bad... it has nothing to do with effectiveness in the right hand, it has everything to do with newbies not getting it on the first go.

It's "bad" because that's your opinion. We get it, we just don't agree with you

Newbies can do just fine in that mech. It's also a great free mech for them to learn how to use LRMs with plenty of ammo and how TAG affects them and Artemis.
Just because YOU don't think it's a good mech doesn't make it so for everyone, nor does it mean it's a bad mech for new players just because your opinion says it is.

You're talking tutorials, not mechs. As I said earlier, if you're really concerned with new players, then when you see them dropping in game with you help them out and give advice.

[627]

Stelar 7, on 07 February 2014 - 03:59 PM, said:

I don't think you know what anecdotal evidence means, if you did not do a formal study collecting data from a broad pool with as little bias as possible, and controls for the bias, you didn't get data, you have an anecdote, or perhaps several of them. That means lots of confirmation bias.

Killer argument. You expect a scientific study or everything I say on this issue are just the memories on a bad day?
Ok how is that: Take a look into the new players forum. Just look for threads about the 4 trial mechs.

Stelar 7, on 07 February 2014 - 03:59 PM, said:

To everyone in the stalkers side torso nonsense.

Sure they are hittable, yes I too aim for them. HOWEVER they are less hittable than most assault side torsos. Especially head on. Not an impossible shot, but twisting is very effective. If you want to teach noobs about XL this is a good mech. If you don't want noobs to have firepower, sure let em drive zombie cents. Most mechs are pretty useless after one side torso drops, especially with the gimped movement or firepower that comes with not having an XL and Endo.

Actually it is hard to hit center torso on a stalker. It has some of the biggest side torsos. Oh and as a proof I'd like to direct you to the hitbox thread so this is not anecdotal.

And here another thing:
twisting is very effective

Yes it is. You know that. I know that. Probably everyone posting in this thread knows that. And now, please without any thought of insulting or offending you just think about a new player who just downloaded this game and played the movement tutorial. Just one minute.

Stelar 7, on 07 February 2014 - 03:59 PM, said:

Second, until there is an ez mode any mech they drop in will require skill.

The dragon was pretty good before the gauss change. Only two weapon groups, direct fire (point and shoot) a no heat weapon and no hidden ghost heat mechanics.

Stelar 7, on 07 February 2014 - 03:59 PM, said:

Until there is a every map tutorial that takes them through the likely attacks, and defense zones and teaches movement, speeds, situational awareness and all the rest, it does not matter if we give noobs a 200% armor bonus they will get rolled. And if they are smart, they will spend the next few minutes ghosting the teammates who are not dead watching.

That is the reason to let noobs drop with experienced players, they can learn from them. Take that away and noobs just get blasted a little longer along in their play experience.

First part: yes.
Second one: I don't know... if you get shot out of your mech in the first 2 minutes of the game without even seeing an enemy, over and over I doubt you have enough fun to stay and watch others who are doing so much better in tricked out mechs.

[Deathlike]

Stelar 7, on 07 February 2014 - 03:59 PM, said:

To everyone in the stalkers side torso nonsense.

Sure they are hittable, yes I too aim for them. HOWEVER they are less hittable than most assault side torsos. Especially head on. Not an impossible shot, but twisting is very effective. If you want to teach noobs about XL this is a good mech. If you don't want noobs to have firepower, sure let em drive zombie cents. Most mechs are pretty useless after one side torso drops, especially with the gimped movement or firepower that comes with not having an XL and Endo.

Stalker side torsos are hit often, and not just because people target them... they tend to "misfire" on the CT (it is a slim target), and subsequently hit the side torso. It isn't just a random phenomenon. Smart players tend to finish off a side torso to reduce firepower, so the retaliation won't be so severe from the target.

Also, teaching XL is with light mechs. They are the optimal platform for XL, so noone faults light mechs for going that route. In many cases, going XL in an assault is a crime (please, bring out that stock XL engine on the Boar's Head or Atlas-K, I dare you).

Quote

Second, until there is an ez mode any mech they drop in will require skill. Until there is a every map tutorial that takes them through the likely attacks, and defense zones and teaches movement, speeds, situational awareness and all the rest, it does not matter if we give noobs a 200% armor bonus they will get rolled. And if they are smart, they will spend the next few minutes ghosting the teammates who are not dead watching.

That is the reason to let noobs drop with experienced players, they can learn from them. Take that away and noobs just get blasted a little longer along in their play experience.

Not all newbies will get it the first couple games. Sure, they should drop with experienced players... if they are in the same premade. That's what voice coms are for. It is hard to teach a newbie in game chat, because you have no idea what they know, or what they should know. It would take more than the time spent in a match to figure out a lot about the game... and that's unfortunately what built-in-game tutorials that we have access to are lacking.

[Stelar 7]

Basically everything Sandpit just said, but also, Deathlike, you are saying the right thing for the wrong reason. ANY mech we drop newbies in will have a steep learning curve. We have also, all, been that newbie at some point. I didn't quit when I got poop stomped early, I just kept at it. When playing a new PVP game new players should expect to get rolled. Anyone who logs in the first time thinking they will own is delusional.

If you are worried about newbies, write guides, engage PGI for more new player content and spend time helping them. This is silly.

[Deathlike]

Sandpit, on 07 February 2014 - 04:10 PM, said:

It's "bad" because that's your opinion. We get it, we just don't agree with you

Newbies can do just fine in that mech. It's also a great free mech for them to learn how to use LRMs with plenty of ammo and how TAG affects them and Artemis.
Just because YOU don't think it's a good mech doesn't make it so for everyone, nor does it mean it's a bad mech for new players just because your opinion says it is.

It's not even a personal opinion. If we put a vote together, I'm willing to bet people will side on my end more than your end. It has less to do with being a missile boat. It is everything to do with it making the mech a newbie death trap.

Quote

You're talking tutorials, not mechs. As I said earlier, if you're really concerned with new players, then when you see them dropping in game with you help them out and give advice.

They don't ask for advice, that's the problem. It's either that they are shy or that they simply don't know what to ask.

I do answer questions newbies give in game, as rare as that occurs.

[Sandpit]

627, on 07 February 2014 - 04:12 PM, said:

Killer argument. You expect a scientific study or everything I say on this issue are just the memories on a bad day?
Ok how is that: Take a look into the new players forum. Just look for threads about the 4 trial mechs.

That's still anecdotal. You're getting too defensive. All that's being said is that the evidence you provided is purely anecdotal. In this particular case you provided a screenshot showing several pilots in the new Stalker and assuming they were new pilots with low elos and that's why that match was one-sided.
There isn't a single player on here that can provide more than anecdotal evidence. It's impossible because they don't have the data to support their evidence and no matter how many screenshots and matches you record data for it's still anecdotal because it's such a small sample size and includes your personal bias (in this case things like ELO, builds, etc.) as opposed to information garnered from the entire population.
The same goes for new player threads. Have you seen the number of "new" players that are nothing more than alts to try and garner support because now the idea is coming from a "new" player? You cannot rely on things like that because there's no way of verifying the validity of those claims

PGI can verify them. PGI has the data. PGI makes decisions based on that data. Any data submitted as factual evidence of anything in this game is nothing more than anecdotal simply because of the data gathering process and again because of the whole bias discussed earlier.