152 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

MadcatX, on 08 February 2014 - 02:04 PM, said:

It definitely applies here. the only problem is that the standard deviation in the curve are a bit off.

Nah, that standard deviation holds true regardless. Standard deviation is called standard for a reason

Now that standard deviation can be a different amount depending on the population size but it's still going to be the standard deviation. You're still going to have the vast majority falling into the averages while the extremes have a different experience. Point being that "PGI and their MM sucks" does nothing. It helps nothing.
Suggestions that don't take into account that 90+% of the entire population has a very balanced game. That means suggestions that cater to the minority but throw off things for the majority simply aren't feasible.

[KharnZor]

wwiiogre, on 08 February 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

I define a stomp as winning by a 50% margin. Meaning if your side won and has at least 6 mechs still working that is a stomp, winning by more than 6 mechs is a roflstomp. Of all the games I have played since ELO was first added I am still over a 2/1 win loss and same for k/d.

You are wrong.
Sometimes the scoreboard doesn't accurately reflect what went on during a match.

Edited by KharnZor, 08 February 2014 - 02:49 PM.

[Profiteer]

The first fix should be:

Your first 100 games are played in a separate queue against only others playing their first 100 games.

This would stop a lot of seal clubbing which I'm sure drives off new players and ruins games for everybody.

[Davers]

Blowouts happen. Look at the Super Bowl.

The LA Kings had shut outs on 15.25% of their games this season. 14% of baseball games were shutouts in 2013.

Why do people think this is a rare thing? The only place where games are always 'nail biters' is the movies.

Maybe if people spent a little more time learning how to be a 'team player' instead of 'forum whiner' their play experience will improve? Oh, I forgot. Everyone on here is an expert player with a stratospheric elo who somehow get stuck on teams of 'noobs'.

[Domoneky]

Are you mad because of Stomps in general or mostly because you end up on the wrong side of it? A Match is a Match is a Match. instead of QQing about it why not either get better by practicing or simply make your own goal of trying to do the most damage on your team? I pilot an AS7-D-DC sometimes pugging others in a lance. As long as I'm making at least 300 damage I'm happy. Yeah some victories would be nice but Face it OP.....Sometimes you're gonna run into a Match that your gonna just get rolled. At least try to bloody their noses for it.

[MischiefSC]

Chris;

I get that you want to win more often. I really do. I get that you feel like there is some force, some evil group or person or entity or system or whatever that's keeping you down and preventing you from winning as much as you deserve to win.

I hate to say this but the problem isn't the matchmaker, it's you. This isn't intended as an attack or to be directly offensive but the issue you're putting forward is one of your personal perception and the psychology behind it.

The matchmaker does not seek you out to punish you. It works exactly the same for you, exactly the same, as it does for every single other player in the game. The matchmaker seeks to put you in situations where you're as likely to win as you are to lose, the only way to escape that is to get continually better. It's intended both to create a constant challenge and to prevent experienced players from constantly rolling new players. It doesn't care about you personally - nor should it. If you want to play in an environment where you win all the time go play a single player game.

Stomps are even more common in 12mans, in fact 12mans are almost universally a stomp. It's very rare to see a better than 12 to 2 outcome even if the relative skills of both teams were almost identical. It's not about 12 sets of 1 v 1, it's about organized teams using focused firepower.

In any case this isn't the first time you've had this discussion and the flaws and incorrect statements in your argument have been pointed out and addressed quite a few times. I could link them for you but there are 3 or 4 threads of them on the first page alone.

The short version - you're wrong, Chris, in saying the matchmaker is broken. Stomps happen regardless of matchmaking. Sometimes you play well, sometimes you don't. Sometimes your team does well, sometimes they don't. The matchmaker does what it's supposed to - try to keep things balanced in terms of weight and relative skill levels between players. Sometimes, due to availability of players within the needed weight classes, it has to go further afield in skill levels to fit tonnage and vice versa as it looks for an average but you're going to end up with around 50/50.

That you tend to take anecdotal extremes and blow them out of proportion is the issue here. Not the matchmaker.

[IIIuminaughty]

Sometimes I wish I could have the attention span to read an OP's rage post...

[Roland]

Sandpit, on 08 February 2014 - 02:13 PM, said:

Nah, that standard deviation holds true regardless. Standard deviation is called standard for a reason

Now that standard deviation can be a different amount depending on the population size but it's still going to be the standard deviation.

I think you are getting some of your terms regarding statistics confused.
Specifically, you seem to be confusing the standard deviation with a normal distribution. Or something. What you're saying doesn't really make a lot of sense, so I'm not really sure what it is you're trying to say.

The standard distribution for a population is just the amount of deviation from the average in a population or data set, and there isn't some kind of standard for it across all data sets.. that's really NOT why it's called "standard". For different datasets, you're going to have different standard deviations... Ones with a small SD have most of their values close to the average. Ones with a large SD are spread out more.

[Rebas Kradd]

If tonnage matching were the answer, matches involving roughly equal tonnage would generally be more balanced. Yet they experience stomps all the time. (Nobody watches for this phenomenon, of course - people these days are really bad at knowing how to test a theory).

Stomps are just the nature of MWO. Fall behind by four kills and your team is hosed, because the players are big, slow targets that are easily converged upon, and anything that's not big and slow is a light lacking firepower. MWO games are always likely to be decided in the first three minutes of the match.

Reducing damage output would help and I'd like to see it happen, but nobody can suggest ways to do that without changing the fundamental systems of the game, which isn't going to happen at this point.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 08 February 2014 - 04:38 PM.

[FenixK17]

Ok, I've been trying to keep track of the games I play but I don't think I had kept record of all games in the past 4 days. Anyways here is the breakdown of the past 14 matches I had (does not include those I quit early after death, so take the results with a pinch of salt):

Games that ended 12-1: 2 matches (Both vicotries) (Skirmish and Assault)
Games that ended 12-3: 2 matches (One defeat and one victory) (Assault)
Games that ended 12-5: 4 matches (Three victories and one defeat) (Assault)
Games that ended 12-7: 2 matches (One each) (Assault)
Games that ended 12-8: 1 match (Victory) (Conquest)
Games that ended 12-10: 3 matches (Three victories) (Assault)

So if stomps = 12-4 and below (including 12-0), 4 of 14 matches end in stomp. While 4 matches end with with 12-11 and below (up to and including 12-8). The other 6 matches end in between the two extremes. Ideally, I would love to have more games end 12-19 and above more often.

While I can't say MM has become worse or better (I don't keep track of my matches that much last time), I would say it currently is still bad. Tonnage needs to be closer. Yes, games can be won by a side that is way lighter but that usually means that the opponent team needs to be either inept or your team having a Kai Allard-Liao.

P.S: The results could be skewed by the fact I do not always sit out games in spectator mode.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Off-topic:

I've been wondering what has been bugging me about the forum for so long and I finally realised that a lot of us can be extremely snide when posting. It's helping no one to be antagonizing each other.

[Sandpit]

Roland, on 08 February 2014 - 04:31 PM, said:

I think you are getting some of your terms regarding statistics confused.
Specifically, you seem to be confusing the standard deviation with a normal distribution. Or something. What you're saying doesn't really make a lot of sense, so I'm not really sure what it is you're trying to say.

The standard distribution for a population is just the amount of deviation from the average in a population or data set, and there isn't some kind of standard for it across all data sets.. that's really NOT why it's called "standard". For different datasets, you're going to have different standard deviations... Ones with a small SD have most of their values close to the average. Ones with a large SD are spread out more.

I understand it. That's why I said the amount going into a standard deviation might change but the standard deviation is still the standard deviation.
The standard deviation changes depending upon the data set. The actual numbers change. The standard deviation forumla never changes though. no matter if that standard deviation equates to 1 or 1000. It scales based on the total population numbers, data sets, etc.

The point being that the ones experiencing stomps as a more common end to their matches are not the average result of games based on a bell curve. Therefore sutff like "Every game ends in a stomp" or having the mentality that because you as an individual experience more of them than others does NOT equate to them being the norm or average result for the other 90% of the people who play the game. Which means that no matter how many times duplicate threads pop up about this and no matter how many times the same central people "debate" this issue, it doesn't change those facts.

It also doesn't take into account that by all indications (IE direct quotes from the devs themselves) only a VERY small portion of the population even visits the forums, as crappy as it may be some people are going to experience them more often. As long as it's a very minor portion of the population (under 10% if we just go with a standard bell curve) then it's not indicative that's it's a major problem for the rest of the players who play this game.

I also understand that for those players that fall into that small category it's an issue. The only thing I've said is that PGI has constantly looked into and made adjustments to the MM in order to try and alleviate the issues and that just because an idea might fix it for that 10%, if it throws things out of whack for the other 90% it simply is not a good idea.

[Dudeman3k]

Sandpit, on 08 February 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

I understand it. That's why I said the amount going into a standard deviation might change but the standard deviation is still the standard deviation.
The standard deviation changes depending upon the data set. The actual numbers change. The standard deviation forumla never changes though. no matter if that standard deviation equates to 1 or 1000. It scales based on the total population numbers, data sets, etc.

The point being that the ones experiencing stomps as a more common end to their matches are not the average result of games based on a bell curve. Therefore sutff like "Every game ends in a stomp" or having the mentality that because you as an individual experience more of them than others does NOT equate to them being the norm or average result for the other 90% of the people who play the game. Which means that no matter how many times duplicate threads pop up about this and no matter how many times the same central people "debate" this issue, it doesn't change those facts.

It also doesn't take into account that by all indications (IE direct quotes from the devs themselves) only a VERY small portion of the population even visits the forums, as crappy as it may be some people are going to experience them more often. As long as it's a very minor portion of the population (under 10% if we just go with a standard bell curve) then it's not indicative that's it's a major problem for the rest of the players who play this game.

I also understand that for those players that fall into that small category it's an issue. The only thing I've said is that PGI has constantly looked into and made adjustments to the MM in order to try and alleviate the issues and that just because an idea might fix it for that 10%, if it throws things out of whack for the other 90% it simply is not a good idea.

Dude, Im just going to throw this out there. I've held my tongue long enough.

You are like Russ's lap dog, almost near blind to the fact that this game does in fact suck badly when compared to other titles. The only real appeal this game has over anyother is the fact it's a mech game, a BT title, and its F2P, but holy damn, this game sucks in terms of being a "game".

I read forum posts, sometimes I respond, sometimes I dont, but in every single one of them YOU are there... the junk yard dog of PGI. The one who is so blatantly blind to their incompetence in many things.

by all means, deffend them. To each their own, PGI needs more people like you....... but dude, you should really get out there and play more games to understand what being a gamer is.

Edited by Dudeman3k, 08 February 2014 - 04:59 PM.

[NextGame]

FenixK17, on 08 February 2014 - 04:41 PM, said:

I've been wondering what has been bugging me about the forum for so long and I finally realised that a lot of us can be extremely snide when posting. It's helping no one to be antagonizing each other.

You're right, but I suppose its partly the internet anonymity and partly the fact that we can all discuss these things until we are blue in the face, its not like anyone will ever change their opinions over it regardless of what points are made

[Corvus Antaka]

12-4 doesnt mean a stomp. it can easily mean 8 enemy mechs left with 1 hit to die.

[MischiefSC]

Dudeman3k, on 08 February 2014 - 04:59 PM, said:

Dude, Im just going to throw this out there. I've held my tongue long enough.

You are like Russ's lap dog, almost near blind to the fact that this game does in fact suck badly when compared to other titles. The only real appeal this game has over anyother is the fact it's a mech game, a BT title, and its F2P, but holy damn, this game sucks in terms of being a "game".

I read forum posts, sometimes I respond, sometimes I dont, but in every single one of them YOU are there... the junk yard dog of PGI. The one who is so blatantly blind to their incompetence in many things.

by all means, deffend them. To each their own, PGI needs more people like you....... but dude, you should really get out there and play more games to understand what being a gamer is.

So.... I'm just curious, do you understand what's being discussed? Do you have a point or a purpose other than an ad hominem set of insults?

The 'understand what being a gamer is' bit, what does that mean? Acting entitled? I'm just at a loss here as to what your point is.

I've got tons of complaints about MW:O and I've voiced them. I've done my best to do so in a constructive manner and provide details as to what I'd change. Can you point to me where you've done that? Because making passing ad hominem insults and saying 'it sucks' isn't in any way, shape or form useful. It's literally the opposite of useful, it is literally useless. I mean that in the fundamental use of the term, as in having no use.

I'm all for criticism, I'm all for airing complaints about stuff, I'm all for recommending changes. In this instance Sandpit is right - while the matchmaker has a lot of room to improve and there are some things that I think would help the Elo aspect of it (Gaussian distribution, match to range not target, split pug/premade Elo) it works well and the matchmaking should not be adjusted for the top and bottom 2%.

Your response though.... really? That's what you had to contribute? Can't you do that in PM or something? Go yell at your neighbors dog or the like?

'understand what being a gamer is'. The entitlement mentality inherent in that, the assumption about how your opinion is the majority opinion, about the value of your perspective, I mean that statement is so rich in wrongness it boggles. me.

Don't do that. Don't be that guy. Or, at least, if you are, do it in PMs or something. I just lost some faith in humanity from that post. I need to take a break and watch videos about people knitting sweaters for rescue penguins or something.

[Hellen Wheels]

Dudeman3k, on 08 February 2014 - 04:59 PM, said:

this game does in fact suck badly

[Dudeman3k]

MischiefSC, on 08 February 2014 - 05:07 PM, said:

So.... I'm just curious, do you understand what's being discussed? Do you have a point or a purpose other than an ad hominem set of insults?

The 'understand what being a gamer is' bit, what does that mean? Acting entitled? I'm just at a loss here as to what your point is.

I've got tons of complaints about MW:O and I've voiced them. I've done my best to do so in a constructive manner and provide details as to what I'd change. Can you point to me where you've done that? Because making passing ad hominem insults and saying 'it sucks' isn't in any way, shape or form useful. It's literally the opposite of useful, it is literally useless. I mean that in the fundamental use of the term, as in having no use.

I'm all for criticism, I'm all for airing complaints about stuff, I'm all for recommending changes. In this instance Sandpit is right - while the matchmaker has a lot of room to improve and there are some things that I think would help the Elo aspect of it (Gaussian distribution, match to range not target, split pug/premade Elo) it works well and the matchmaking should not be adjusted for the top and bottom 2%.

Your response though.... really? That's what you had to contribute? Can't you do that in PM or something? Go yell at your neighbors dog or the like?

'understand what being a gamer is'. The entitlement mentality inherent in that, the assumption about how your opinion is the majority opinion, about the value of your perspective, I mean that statement is so rich in wrongness it boggles. me.

Don't do that. Don't be that guy. Or, at least, if you are, do it in PMs or something. I just lost some faith in humanity from that post. I need to take a break and watch videos about people knitting sweaters for rescue penguins or something.

lol, The point was to make it vocal, and heard by everyone. Thus a PM wouldnt do it's justice.

A gas station sub is a sandwich.
A jimmy johns sub is a sandwich.

Both are sandwiches..... but one is clearly more superior to the other.

Video games are no different.

MWO is a video game
Valkyria Chronicles is a video game

you can boil it down to genre if you really really want to, but the fact still remains its a "video game".... and a bad video game, regardless of genre, is a bad video game.

Like I said before, PGI needs all the defending it can get. The only thing that really keeps me in is the fact its a MW title.... but I'm also keen enough to understand a bad game is a bad game.

[Sandpit]

Dudeman3k, on 08 February 2014 - 04:59 PM, said:

Dude, Im just going to throw this out there. I've held my tongue long enough.

You are like Russ's lap dog, almost near blind to the fact that this game does in fact suck badly when compared to other titles. The only real appeal this game has over anyother is the fact it's a mech game, a BT title, and its F2P, but holy damn, this game sucks in terms of being a "game".

I read forum posts, sometimes I respond, sometimes I dont, but in every single one of them YOU are there... the junk yard dog of PGI. The one who is so blatantly blind to their incompetence in many things.

by all means, deffend them. To each their own, PGI needs more people like you....... but dude, you should really get out there and play more games to understand what being a gamer is.

Thank you for your informative feedback, suggestions, ideas, etc. on how to improve the game.Always nice to meet a fan *waves*

[Sandpit]

Dudeman3k, on 08 February 2014 - 05:26 PM, said:

lol, The point was to make it vocal, and heard by everyone. Thus a PM wouldnt do it's justice, because I didn't want to actually contribute anything to the conversation or offer any ideas, I just wanted some attention and a pat on the back from the "I hate Sand fanclub"

FTFY

[Karl Marlow]

Lopsided victories are quite common in games like this Once you knock out an enemy mech you tip the odds in your favor starting a snowball effect. The main difference here is we only get one life per match so when our team gets wiped we don't respawn and head back in.