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Triple Deuce Mechs


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#1 eleazr

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 10:58 PM

The Mechs

There are few things more fun than unloading on somebody half way across the map and watching them squirm and run for cover. There are few weapon loadouts better at this than a rapid firing triple AC2.

My first mech was a Hunchback 4G (mastered) and I've just got my Shadow Hawk 2H elited. Both of these mechs have high ballistic mounts which is what first drew me to them. The 4G is slower since the Hunchie really shouldn't run an XL engine, and it doesn't have jump jets. It's not all roses for the 2H however. Without the Hunchback's massive cowling that everybody always curses, the high shoulder mounted AC2s on a 'Hawk have a hellaceous muzzle flash that occludes most of the front window, making it very hard to see what I'm shooting at when I'm rapid firing my Deuces. That said, the AC2 can't be rapid fired for more than a short burst anyway due to the stupidity that is ghost heat.


Hunchback 4G Triple Deuce (by memory, I sold it to make room for my 'Hawks)
Shadow Hawk 2H Triple Deuce (current)
Shadow Hawk 2H Triple Deuce (future design, once I get an XL 340)


I've not worked with any of the other mechs that can run a Triple Deuce loadout, so I'm not sure how they work, but I'd be very interested in other people's experiences.

Rapid Fire Woes

By 'rapid firing,' I mean firing your Deuces at less than .52 second intervals. This can be accomplished manually (by grouping one in one group and the other two in a second group then triggering the second group before the first group reloads), or with a macro. I've used the manual method for a while, and I've only recently started using a macro. However, I have not (subjectively) noticed a difference in the suppression effect; the macro is just 'prettier'.

Which brings me to the evils of the extraneous, arcane, counterintuitive, arbitrary, and badly implemented ghost heat. Ghost heat usually applies to weapons that PGI has decided to nerf when said weapons are group fired in one large alpah strike. However, as skulk of daemur deigned to explain 'explain,' any time a weapon affected by ghost heat (which includes AC2s) is fired within .5 seconds of another such weapon, that weapon is counted in that alpah strike. So, if you're rapid firing your Tripple Deuces for 3+ seconds you've sent 18 rounds down range and all 18 rounds count for ghost heat as if you had fired off 18 AC2s all at once! The only way around this is to rapid fire in short bursts only, pausing for a beat (.52 seconds) before firing the next short burst. Because of all this confusing mess, if you want to maximize DPS, you have to group fire your AC2s.

After consulting with Smurfy's, (God bless Smurfy) I've derived this table:

Time (sec.) 0.00 0.18 0.36 0.54 0.72 0.9 1.08 1.26 1.44 1.62 1.8 1.98
shot number 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
heat 1 2 3 4.18 5.45 6.81 8.29 9.95 11.85 14.05 16.85 20.85
ghost heat 0 0 0 0.18 0.45 0.81 1.29 1.95 2.85 4.05 5.85 8.85
ghost heat% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 4.31% 8.26% 11.89% 15.56% 19.60% 24.05% 28.83% 34.72% 42.45%


I set up my macro to fire each AC2 at 0.18 sec delay with a .52 second delay after six rounds. This seemed to fit well with the loadout and resets the alpha count with a minimum of fuss before the ghost heat starts to really take hold. But even if you don't use macros, short bursts should do the trick nicely. (To reference my above manual example, keep the second group (with 2 AC2s) continuously firing and add in the single AC2 for short bursts for a rapid fire effect. All of this malarky could be done away with if PGI would simply design their game correctly in the first place.

edit: spelling of 'deuce'

Edited by eleazr, 10 February 2014 - 03:28 PM.


#2 Bront

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 09:36 AM

Try it in the Victor 9B if you like it. JJs, arm mounted for better aim, and the tonnage to mount other weapons as well (ERLLs, PPCs, LRMs).

Also, the 2 AC2 1 AC5 builds work very well. Over 10 seconds, you sacrifice 13 damage for 13 heat, which seems like a pretty fair trade. Works great in the BLR-1D.

Edited by Bront, 09 February 2014 - 09:37 AM.


#3 1453 R

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 09:48 AM

I run triple-Deuces in my SHD-2H, and frankly I see no issue with group-firing the guns to avoid ghost heat issues. 6 damage downrange every half-second is more than sufficient, and if it's not as bone-rattling as faux-rotary AC fire, it's also significantly more effective. Something stands still for a second and a half, you can plug more than twenty damage into it if your aim's good. The muzzle flash issue on the SHD is a bother, though. The Hunchback's ridiculous hunch doesn't suffer the same problem?

#4 NRP

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 09:50 AM

The AC/10+2 AC/2 build also works great on the Victor 9B, as I recall. It's basically Gauss rifle damage, only better.

Anyway, from what I've seen, the "triple deuce" is popular on the SHD-2H, the Jagers, and the Battlemaster 1D.

#5 Macksheen

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 09:51 AM

No, it doesn't (though I've sold my hunchback). Worse still is if you cram 3 MGs in the Shadowhawk ... you basically lose half your screen to flash (and god help you if you have heat vision on)

#6 Cappricorn

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 10:39 PM

Hi!

Thanks for your heat management tips. I really like 3x AC2 Dakka builds. I use it on my Dragon 5N and I will try to have a closer look on that dang heat generation. But.....how do you manage a solid DAKKA with just 375 rounds? I use 600 on my Dragon and on long range heavy maps it still could happen that I run dry. The minimum amount of rounds for me seems to be 525 rounds?

#7 eleazr

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 03:28 PM

View Post1453 R, on 09 February 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:

I run triple-Deuces in my SHD-2H...

there, fixed. I should know better than to rely on spell check...

View PostCappricorn, on 09 February 2014 - 10:39 PM, said:

But.....how do you manage a solid DAKKA with just 375 rounds?


uh... fire control? if you can't hit it don't shoot at it? or perhaps only shoot single rounds to work on my marksmanship? I do run dry, but less than 10% of the time.

(usually I die first though)

#8 Bront

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 09:01 AM

View PostCappricorn, on 09 February 2014 - 10:39 PM, said:

Hi!

Thanks for your heat management tips. I really like 3x AC2 Dakka builds. I use it on my Dragon 5N and I will try to have a closer look on that dang heat generation. But.....how do you manage a solid DAKKA with just 375 rounds? I use 600 on my Dragon and on long range heavy maps it still could happen that I run dry. The minimum amount of rounds for me seems to be 525 rounds?

That's part of where the AC5/2AC2 build is nice. AC5 needs 2 tons of ammo and no real HS. a third AC2 will need a few HS and 2-3 tons of ammo, so you can actually reduce overall loadout weight when moving from an AC2 to an AC5 in a multi-gun setup. If you can manage it, I highly recommend it.

#9 That Dawg

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 05:34 AM

my only gripe, its great at distance, but when the battle inevitably boils down to a skirmish, someone in the same mech running ONE AC 20 and a stack of ML's will win if we both start with the same damage
You really have to stay back and plan accordingly inspite of the claims of high damage, jus' sayin' your .02 may differ.
I'm waiting for the first time someone manages 3 AC20's, oh the caterwauling will be epic LOL

#10 DONTOR

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 11:45 AM

I think you might want to try the BLR-1D, i have used it with 3 ac2s 10 tons ammo 2MLs and i think 24 or so DHS. Fires 2 AC2s forever and can fire 3 for a FULL 2 MINUTES! before overheating. Maybe this would allow for some longer duration of rapid firinfyour AC2s? Im not sure as i havent tried it.

#11 Amsro

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 05:16 AM

Yes, I must admit that Triple Two + Quad Mediums on my 1D Battlemaster is my best mech.

Truly an Overlord.

#12 Bagheera

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 05:24 AM

Triple deuce is a ton of fun on most platforms that can carry it. The 4g is a pretty poor choice for that loadout though. I love my 4g, but not with t he 3/2.

Also, imo ditch the chain fire. Even macroed it was still less dps than 3 group fired, set a group to use just one or two of them to plunk at range or for when you get hot and they are more than manageable.

#13 Amsro

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 05:31 AM

View PostThatDawg, on 13 February 2014 - 05:34 AM, said:

my only gripe, its great at distance, but when the battle inevitably boils down to a skirmish, someone in the same mech running ONE AC 20 and a stack of ML's will win if we both start with the same damage
You really have to stay back and plan accordingly inspite of the claims of high damage, jus' sayin' your .02 may differ.
I'm waiting for the first time someone manages 3 AC20's, oh the caterwauling will be epic LOL


But 12 dmg per second for 2 minutes is brilliant! :)

#14 Modo44

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 05:42 AM

View PostAmsro, on 18 February 2014 - 05:31 AM, said:

But 12 dmg per second for 2 minutes is brilliant! :)

It will never be that long in clutch moments. Either you kill for free while completely unmolested, or you must dodge/twist away to not get cored yourself.

#15 Amsro

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 05:56 AM

View PostModo44, on 18 February 2014 - 05:42 AM, said:

It will never be that long in clutch moments. Either you kill for free while completely unmolested, or you must dodge/twist away to not get cored yourself.


3xAC2 @ 12 DPS for 5 sec = 60 DMG
AC20 @ 5 DPS for 5 sec = 25 DMG

I'll take those odds any day, lets not get into the 20 dmg from the 4 Mediums just yet.

In my experience its the other mech that panics and tries to run for the hills. :)

Edited by Amsro, 18 February 2014 - 05:57 AM.


#16 ImperialKnight

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 05:57 AM

Did someone say TRIPLE DEUCE?!?!

#17 Redshift2k5

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 06:06 AM

I generally just link-fire al lthree AC2s together. Ripple firing them doesn't give you any more DPS, it just pisses people off. Occasionally, for a short burst, I will use a ripple fire (by manually firing one AC2 and then hammering the group fire group, it ain't pretty but it works) but I know it's going to exponentially rack up heat

#18 1453 R

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 06:17 AM

What people always forget, when they badmouth Triple Deuce set-ups, is that the triple deucer does not need to constantly be going all over rotary on the other guy. We can twist-and-shout just as easily as the next guy, regardless of what you think.

EXAMPLE:

You're in a a Weird Al DakkaVic 9B against a conventional flying AC/20 9S. The other guy's primary weapons are on a 4-second cooldown cycle, and for the moment we'll disregard both 'Mech's lasers. This means that you can focus on your own aiming for three seconds - racking up 36 damage from your Triple Deuce - before twisting aside to shield from his AC/20. Certainly he can twist as well, to spread out your damage and preserve his own existence, but each individual shot from your own cannons deals 6 damage. When that 6 damage hits every half-second, it stacks up with scorching speed.

Also means you're much better able to put damage on light 'Mechs, as well as contributing potshots to everyone else's engagements. You can also correct your fire much easier than with an AC/20 - if you miss your first shot with an AC/20 or hit a component you didn't want to, you get to wait 4 seconds before you can try again. With Triple Deuces, you wait half a second.

Yeah, Triple Deuces is a serious weight investment. Eighteen tons for the weapons alone, with a minimum ammunition requirement of 2 tons/gun. DuAC/5s are more weight-efficient, and the AC/20 is more weight-efficient yet. But the AC/2s are more space-efficient - as evinced by the fact that my Weird Al DakkaVic can take FERRO-FIBROUS FRICKIN' ARMOR - and provide a flexible choice of engagement styles. You can rattle off long chains of fire if a target gives you the chance, or you can play duck-and-weave skirmisher as well as anyone else. I've won plenty of close-quarters fights in my DakkaHawk, and the DakkaVic's epic ridiculousness speaks for itself. Even if its jump capability is *****. Stupid space restrictions...

#19 Joey Tankblaster

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 06:21 AM

Triple deuce on a Jager is the way to go as it allows running standard engine rather than XLs.

JM6-DD

Damage output is around 150 rounds before overheating (300 damage). Try this with PPCs..

#20 Modo44

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 06:26 AM

View PostAmsro, on 18 February 2014 - 05:56 AM, said:

3xAC2 @ 12 DPS for 5 sec = 60 DMG
AC20 @ 5 DPS for 5 sec = 25 DMG

Not my point. I get high burst DPS. It is high DPS for 2 minutes straight that sounds useless.





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