32 replies to this topic

[Roadkill]

... without Jump Jets?

I know that the Victor is a great Mech, but I'm wondering how much of its worth is tied up in the fact that it's a jumping assault. I'm tempted to buy the Dragon Slayer while it is on sale, but I'm epically bad at using Jump Jets so if that's the real reason to own a Victor then I shouldn't bother.

Let's put it this way... I'm so bad with Jump Jets that I haven't even bothered to put them on my Shadowhawks. The Jump Jets on my Cataphract 3D are wasted tonnage because I forget to use them. My Highlanders are all land-bound.

So if there's 0 chance that I'd ever jump in a Victor, are they even worth buying?

[Bishop Steiner]

Roadkill, on 10 February 2014 - 12:03 PM, said:

... without Jump Jets?

I know that the Victor is a great Mech, but I'm wondering how much of its worth is tied up in the fact that it's a jumping assault. I'm tempted to buy the Dragon Slayer while it is on sale, but I'm epically bad at using Jump Jets so if that's the real reason to own a Victor then I shouldn't bother.

Let's put it this way... I'm so bad with Jump Jets that I haven't even bothered to put them on my Shadowhawks. The Jump Jets on my Cataphract 3D are wasted tonnage because I forget to use them. My Highlanders are all land-bound.

So if there's 0 chance that I'd ever jump in a Victor, are they even worth buying?

Short answer?

No.

I'd take a Battlemaster at that point. Sure it can't do the ac20, but that is the only downside (and if that is important, Stalker-Misery)

The feature that allows JJ mechs to be as good as they are IS the JJs, IMO. There are plenty of mechs that are better at being groundpounderz (a medium mech example (being a medium junkie) would be taking a ShadowHawk without JJs vs a HBK-4G. Sure the Shad gets the 5 tons more mass still, though about 3 gets ate up in engine, structure, etc. But the HBK as a ground based unit has much better twist rate and agility, and better FoV, and thus is still better.)

Honestly, before I bought a flightless Victor, I would go with either an Orion (again, those 5 tons don't really translate to 5 tons) or a Battlemaster. (I happen to love all 3 chassis though). The VTR is still a little more agile than the BLR, but the BLR can flat out gun it. And the Orion is pretty much a perfect match to the VTR for ground agility.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 10 February 2014 - 12:10 PM.

[Stelar 7]

I love the Victor. If you are not going to jump though you are missing out on a lot of the utility of the mech. The only major advantage it has w/o JJ over the onion and the BM is that your weapons are in the arms and that means faster targeting. If you are comfortable with arm lock, I would get the BM instead.

[Felbombling]

Road, I'm totally rusty and haven't played more than ten games in months, but my suggestion to you would be to maintain a jump jet or two on your jump capable Mechs and try using little bursts to get up smaller hills, try a few mid-air turns and ease into their use. Being able to gain some height advantages can really be useful, and being able to hop over a low hill when you're trying to get away from someone and create some distance is a huge bonus. Like Bishop noted, the ground capabilities of the Victor and other jump capable Mechs are not as good as ground pounders, so you're giving up their true advantage by dumping the jump jets altogether.

[xe N on]

I bought the dragon slayer just recently and it's amazing! Much more agile compared to my DDC. The dragon slayer has the unique advantage of all victors beeing able to mount all relevant weapons to the right side (corner sniping).

Edited by xe N on, 10 February 2014 - 12:26 PM.

[Roadkill]

Thanks for the advice. Sounds like my suspicions were basically correct, so I'll just save the MC and pass on the Dragon Slayer. I got an Ilya and a Firebrand in the sale, so I'm set for a while now anyway.

StaggerCheck - that's about all I use JJ for. And then typically only after I've run into the cliff and started cursing at the level designer, then it dawns on me... oh wait, I have Jump Jets!

Yeah, I'm that bad about them.

[Roughneck45]

Roadkill, on 10 February 2014 - 12:03 PM, said:

So if there's 0 chance that I'd ever jump in a Victor, are they even worth buying?

If you are not going to use JJ's the Dragonslayer is the best one. You can stack a side and work a corner. The standard variants make you split the firepower between two arms.

Edited by Roughneck45, 10 February 2014 - 12:34 PM.

[SgtMagor]

NO, No, nO, nooo! I would never buy a Victor without jump jets.

[EyeOne]

I prefer the Victor to Battlemasters and Highlanders. Battlemasters are also "fast assaults" but I don't like them to be speedy. I have slowed all my BM down a little. But the Victors I use at high speeds (71kph - 78kph). They are better for XL engines in my opinion and you can mount good weapons with a Standard also. Victors are one of the few chassis types where I've kept all the variants.

Except for Heavy Metal (which is set up like a Victor...hmmm) I'd take a Victor out over any Highlander or Battlemaster any day.

[Bishop Steiner]

EyeOne, on 10 February 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:

I prefer the Victor to Battlemasters and Highlanders. Battlemasters are also "fast assaults" but I don't like them to be speedy. I have slowed all my BM down a little. But the Victors I use at high speeds (71kph - 78kph). They are better for XL engines in my opinion and you can mount good weapons with a Standard also. Victors are one of the few chassis types where I've kept all the variants.

Except for Heavy Metal (which is set up like a Victor...hmmm) I'd take a Victor out over any Highlander or Battlemaster any day.

but would you do so without JumpJets?

[Roadkill]

EyeOne, on 10 February 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:

I prefer the Victor to Battlemasters and Highlanders. Battlemasters are also "fast assaults" but I don't like them to be speedy. I have slowed all my BM down a little. But the Victors I use at high speeds (71kph - 78kph). They are better for XL engines in my opinion and you can mount good weapons with a Standard also. Victors are one of the few chassis types where I've kept all the variants.

At that point, though, how different are they than Orions? (Remember, no jump jets on the Victor for me.)

[Amsro]

Roadkill, on 10 February 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

At that point, though, how different are they than Orions? (Remember, no jump jets on the Victor for me.)

Having played Trebuchet and the Cataphract, its obvious to me that a chassis can be very useful without using JJ. Sure the JJ version can offer a different play style but the mech is still great without them.

The Victor has great speed, agility and armor. So even if you opt out of the JJ you still have a well rounded mech.

I think you can make it work well.

[Gladewolf]

I think this is a question everyone has to ask themselves(what am I best with?)...I myself (if not sniping) am best with striker/slashing or ambush tactics...which means I pretty much suck in ALL assault mechs(bought battle masters just to try them anyway...sigh). That said, even if you don't use the JJs for combat, you may still find them useful for getting over terrain to get you into fights faster, just a thought.

[EyeOne]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 February 2014 - 12:52 PM, said:

but would you do so without JumpJets?

Yes

Roadkill, on 10 February 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

At that point, though, how different are they than Orions? (Remember, no jump jets on the Victor for me.)

I don't know. I kind of hate Orions, so I'd still prefer Victors. I remember the day I finally saw the light on JJs. You can do what you will with JJs, but I'd highly recommend you practice with them and use JJs on the Victors. I don't see how you could be bad at using JJs. I use JJ-Assaults to get over rocks or help with hills. It's not really something I use in combat like with Mediums and Lights.

Bottom Line: With no JJs would I still take a Victor...
Over a Battlemaster? Yes (AC20 advantage)
Over a Highlander? Yes (Speed advantage)
Over a Heavy Metal? 50/50, hardpoint layouts are almost identical so I'm not sure it really matters. More armor vs more speed.

But of course this is all personal opinion. I don't have facts, or hard numbers to tell you that Victors are better (with no JJs). They probably aren't, but I like them better. In fact my average KD for the three goes: Highanders> Victors> Battlemasters. But even so, the only Highlander I kept after Basics is the Heavy Metal (which is mastered). I have all 3 cbill Victors and I use them regularly.

So, I guess I don't know what to tell you. Maybe I shouldn't have said anything at all.... Hmmmm

Edited by EyeOne, 10 February 2014 - 01:41 PM.

[DarthPeanut]

Picked up a DS on sale, played it a bit so far and very much like the JJ. I am not much for poptarting so for me I dropped it down to 1 JJ so I could use it to help twist and hill climb.

Unfortunately though it has been said recently by Paul (the Lead Designer) in another thread that Victors are getting some changes along with Highlanders to lessen their abilities.

Edited by DarthPeanut, 10 February 2014 - 01:37 PM.

[DONTOR]

Well a DS can still go 90KPH and that is pretty mobile if you ask me. Part of the survivability Victors have is the ability to jump roll damage and that can really save your ass in a tough situation. So if your going with a 400XL in a DS it can work but for the standard varants Id say no.

[Bishop Steiner]

DarthPeanut, on 10 February 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

Picked up a DS on sale, played it a bit so far and very much like the JJ. I am not much for poptarting so for me I dropped it down to 1 JJ so I could use it to help twist and hill climb.

Unfortunately though it has been said recently by Paul (the Lead Designer) in another thread that Victors are getting some changes along with Highlanders to lessen their abilities.

depends on what they mean by lesson. Though I don't have hard facts, if they are simply reducing the thrust and burst from the initial JJs and forcing them to mount multiple to get much benefit, I am all for it as the 1JJ poptart is the cheeziest crap in the game. I am all for THAT meta being kicked in the nads. And TBH, much as I love my Victor, it might be a little too agile for an assault. At the very least you should have to load up on the JJs to get real benefits, so that the tonnage spent on them IS a legit tradeoff to firepower lost, which ATM (and since closed beta) it has never been.

[Bishop Steiner]

DONTOR, on 10 February 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

Well a DS can still go 90KPH and that is pretty mobile if you ask me. Part of the survivability Victors have is the ability to jump roll damage and that can really save your ass in a tough situation. So if your going with a 400XL in a DS it can work but for the standard varants Id say no.

well, just going to use the "base" speed as a base line, BUT out of the 5 tons you "gain" with the VTR over the ON1, .5 goes to IS and the difference between a 300XL and 320XL is 3 tons, so you net a 1.5 ton benefit.

380XL is the largest reasonable engine to mount in a VTR, unless you want the firepower of a Centurion, this allows the VTR to hit 80.2 after speedtweak. Orion needs a 340 for similar speed bringing the toonage gain to 1 ton.

Real world, the only advantage the VTR has is 1) preference (and nothing wrong with that) 2) Can still carry an ac20 with an XL if that is your thing (it does happen to be mine) and 3) arm mounted ballistic if you prefer that to torso.

And, I do think the VTR tanks damage a skosh better.

Don't see any point with all the DS mentions though, because it seems crazy to get a Hero on a chassis you probably aren't gonna love anyhow.

Anyhow, it really is preference more than a hard statistical edge. But seeing VTRs and HGNs without JJs hurts my soul and I am forced to kill them. VTRs with LRMs are on that list too.

(also the ON1-V is one of the better LRM boats, and can clear canyon walls and angles that few if any other mech can..... something about their arm design, you fire dang near straight up. Just a thought for where it excels)

[Jman5]

I think even if you're not very good with jump jets, they provide enough out-of-combat advantages that you should always have at least one. Think about Canyon Network. Being able to jump up a ledge without having to run all the way over to a ramp is great asset.

Canyon, Alpine, Terra Therma, Tourmaline are all full of annoying little ledges that are not scalable in an assault. I'd recommend a JJ even if you never use them in combat.

I know it wasn't your question, but I think you should reconsider your stance on Jump Jets.

Edited by Jman5, 10 February 2014 - 02:05 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Jman5, on 10 February 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

I think even if you're not very good with jump jets, they provide enough out of combat advantages that you should always have at least one. Think about Canyon Network. Being able to jump up a ledge without having to run all the way over to a ramp is great asset.

Canyon, Alpine, Terra Therma, Tourmaline are all full of annoying little ledges that are not scalable in an assault. I'd recommend a JJ even if you never use them in combat.

I know it wasn't your question, but I think you should reconsider your stance on Jump Jets.

it's a legit point. I may dislike the current JJ mechanic, but while it's there, it is a huge advantage even just for terrain crossing. I REALLY hate trying to move across some parts of Canyon Network without them