29 replies to this topic

[Mad Elf]

Hi,

Sorry if these have been suggested already (I haven't seen this exact collection anywhere), but having noodled over the problem a fair bit recently I thought I should share.

This nerf is in four parts:

1. Target reticle shake when jump-jets are active.

Of course, this is already in place, and is working to some extent. I'm listing it because it's a necessary part of the system: it prevents targetting on the way up.

2. Increase convergence time for all weapons.

For all weapons (arm-mounted or otherwise) to hit the same spot, the 'mech must compensate for the range to the target. This compensation must take significant time (several tenths of a second), and must not be possible when the reticle is shaking all over the place.

Implementing this will mean that if the pop-tart fires a snap-shot at the apex of the jump, some of the rounds will miss the target area (or miss altogether).

3. Implement correct physics re. projectile speeds.

If I'm running at 80kph and fire directly sideways, the round (including PPC blast) should also be moving sideways at 80kph. If I'm falling at 10m/s and fire, the round's velocity should also have an extra downward component of 10m/s. This is simple physics, easy to implement, but the last time I checked it hadn't been.

Adding this extra realism will mean that if the pop-tart holds fire to allow their weapons to converge, they will have to take the extra projectile drop into account, making the shot more difficult (though still possible for a skilled player).

4. Implement correct physics re. weapon recoil.

I ran the numbers: assuming that any shock absorbers are perfectly elastic, if you mount a twin-Gauss Catapult on roller skates and fire an alpha strike, the 'mech would end up moving backwards at 22kph!

Realistically, any shock absorbers will more likely be inelastic (which means the recoil is dispersed via something like gas venting, rather than transferred completely to the 'mech body -- a system that must be reset after each use), but they won't be perfectly so. A fair proportion of the recoil would be transferred to the 'mech. The recoil would be worse if the 'mech wasn't grounded.

If this was implemented, firing large projectile weapons (including PPCs) would rock the entire cockpit up (and either left or right, unless the weapons are fired symmetrically, as in the Gaussapult). Unless they were exceptionally skilled, pop-tarts would only have one opportunity to fire while in the air, regardless of recycle time or chain-fire.

Conclusion:

All these suggestions are improvements to the game's realism (as opposed to inexplicable made-up nerfs like ghost heat). If they were all implemented, they wouldn't stop pop-tarting completely, but they would reduce the accuracy, remove the pin-point alpha damage, and increase the skill required to pull it off. I think that's the fairest way to deal with the issue, and it makes the game more realistic overall.

(I would especially like to see the recoil implemented. Currently, if I fire a Gauss Rifle, there's a small noise. If I fire an AC20, there's a much louder noise, and a bit of a flash. If at the same time the cockpit rocked noticeably as the entire 'mech absorbed the recoil, I would know, in my gut, that I'd just discharged a massive, high-powered projectile!)

Edited by Mad Elf, 12 February 2014 - 04:51 AM.

[HammerMaster]

The recoil mechanic was properly implemented in the MW3 in my opinion. They need to take a look at that for the base and work off of that. Reticle bloom I belive was in CB but somehow disappeared. The other speeds...I don't know. Sounds resonable. Though the PPC speed should be so fast should not be relevant.

[MustrumRidcully]

Alpha Striking is not affected by recoil - the recoil will affect you after you already fired your gun.

The reticule shake would need to happen while you're in air, regardless of whether the jets are firing or not.

Non-instantenous convergence sounds like a sensible approach, but there are two problems:
- I think it works badly if there is nothing in the UI to suggest what your current convergence point is.
- Lag is unavoidable, and convergence with a time delay will make the impact of lag even worse, as you now have an uncertainity on where you actually pointed and how long you pointed at it (meaning where your calculated convergence point actually was).

[Willard Phule]

I'll throw this one out there.....not sure how it could be implemented.

Seems that the problem is the concept of "poptarting," correct?

I say either bring back collision damage (at least for the legs only) and modify the falling damage. If you're using your Jump Jets to navigate difficult terrain, there's very little reason for you to fly up to your maximum height. If you're just "poptarting" in place, odds are pretty good you're going up pretty high in the air. If you don't save some of that jump fuel to feather the landing, then you're coming down HARD.

If that's the case, your legs should take some damage. If you continue in this behavior, eventually, your going to kill yourself because your legs snapped off.

[poopenshire]

Willard Phule, on 12 February 2014 - 05:13 AM, said:

I'll throw this one out there.....not sure how it could be implemented.

Seems that the problem is the concept of "poptarting," correct?

I say either bring back collision damage (at least for the legs only) and modify the falling damage. If you're using your Jump Jets to navigate difficult terrain, there's very little reason for you to fly up to your maximum height. If you're just "poptarting" in place, odds are pretty good you're going up pretty high in the air. If you don't save some of that jump fuel to feather the landing, then you're coming down HARD.

If that's the case, your legs should take some damage. If you continue in this behavior, eventually, your going to kill yourself because your legs snapped off.

Now thats not true, I use a Spider and pop-tart often with the ER Large Laser. You do not need to go full jump jets to pop-tart. I find a spot that has some cover where I only need to use about 1/3 of my jump jets up to half at most. then fire and while falling pour on the jump jets again. This is called a controlled descent. Look it up. NASA used this on all Moon landings and it is quite safe and effective.

As for the complaints about pop-tarting.... get over it. Its a real and useful strategy. Yes its annoying as all hell, but seriously, do you really expect a person piloting a 35T mech to run full force into an 85T or 100T mech? Learn to fight as a team with your own scout mechs or with people who know how to hunt pop-tarters.

[SpiralFace]

1: The shake is good enough. I personally feel its an issue with the way JJ's have been implemented mechanically. The slow thrust up makes it easy enough to compensate for it making it tougher to shoot. I personally feel that JJ's should be a shorter "Burst" with a higher climb rate that will make it tougher to Adjust the aim, especially when the shake is active.

2: I really wish they played around with this more. Its an interesting scenario that only MW would have because most shooters only focus on one weapon at a time firing at one location at a time. There might be some technical reasons relating to the fact that "Other games don't use this" that might see the code for that kind of functionality un-supported. Which means they would have to build it up from scratch if they wanted to implement it.

3: This will never happen, and it should never happen. If you think HSR is bad now, this will make is MUCH worse. Having the physics "pre-canned" / baked into the game allows the game to just pull up the numbers that have already been calculated. Having dynamic physics would mean that you need to calculate every projectile, "On the fly." Most modern shooters can get away with it because you are usually just calculating one gun per player, but with players that can easily have up to 5-10 unique weapons plus many of those weapons fire multiple projectiles, the memory load and lag that will come with it will not be worth the effort.

4: Recoil will not solve the issue, only compound on it. All recoil will do is make mechs who alpha strike MORE powerful then they already are because you can just alpha all at once and not be effected by recoil. I get what you are saying, but this is a situation where if they want to draw people away from "high alpha" builds, recoil is a bad game design decision because it only makes high alpha strikes that much more powerful.

Realism has its place, but BT already takes enough liberties with them to where its not the end of the world to take a few more. In the end its a game, so how the game physically plays should be the first concern of theirs.

My personal feelings is that JJ's should be more of a burst and less of the "gentle climb" to make target tracking with the shake that is already there much harder. In addition, when they add collision and falling back into the game, (they said they would eventually) They should make it where if a mech is airborne, he is much more prone to falling and taking damage from that fall. This doesn't invalidate poptarting, but instead makes it a risk reward system for them where if an opponent is expecting it, he is ultimately punished with falling taking him out of the fight and taking fall damage itself, as a deturant from the extreme use you see for it now.

[Kaldor]

All great ideas to be honest. Implementation is the issue.

[Willard Phule]

poopenshire, on 12 February 2014 - 05:17 AM, said:

Now thats not true, I use a Spider and pop-tart often with the ER Large Laser. You do not need to go full jump jets to pop-tart. I find a spot that has some cover where I only need to use about 1/3 of my jump jets up to half at most. then fire and while falling pour on the jump jets again. This is called a controlled descent. Look it up. NASA used this on all Moon landings and it is quite safe and effective.

Completely agree, just need to point out something real quick.

The "poptart" issues that are going to be addressed by PGI's next round of nerfing are going to be the Highlanders and Victors. They tend to use just a wee bit more than a single ER Large....which is the cause of the whining.

Should there be a difference in a 30 ton mech plummeting to the ground from, say 100 feet as opposed to an 80-85 ton mech? I don't know, I'm a grumpy old man, not a physicist.

Tell you what, I've got a little experiment for you to try...post your results here. Take a 3 pound item from your refrigerator and drop it on your foot. Then take an 8 pound item from the 'fridge and drop it on your foot. Tell me which one does more damage. I have a hunch I know the answer, but I'll withhold my opinion until I hear back from you with your scientifically concluded data.

poopenshire, on 12 February 2014 - 05:17 AM, said:

As for the complaints about pop-tarting.... get over it. Its a real and useful strategy. Yes its annoying as all hell, but seriously, do you really expect a person piloting a 35T mech to run full force into an 85T or 100T mech? Learn to fight as a team with your own scout mechs or with people who know how to hunt pop-tarters.

Yep, gotta agree with you there, too. Poptarts don't bug me at all. If someone is hopping up in the air, lobbing Gauss rounds and ERPPCs at me....I either find a bigger teammate to hide behind or....and I know this is a radical concept.....I get out of the line of fire. That whole "cover and concealment" thing they taught us in the Army.

I know...it sounds stupid because standing still in the open while people shoot at you is so much more attractive...but, you never know, it might catch on.

[SpiralFace]

I'm not bothered by the existence of the pop tart strat, but at the same time, the way it is currently implemented, there is no "risk or reward" behind it. Its just overall better in every way.

In the BG, chronic jumping was never used because it heavily affected both your ability to hit and your ability to make pilot skill rolls. It was super useful and powerful in the right hands, but there was a "risk reward" associated with it.

I realize that this is not the BG, but with the lack of knockdown and Jumps that "gently lift you" rather then shoot you up in any way that would make it difficult to aim, there is no risk reward system behind it. Its just in every way better than mechs without JJ's.

I'm personally not overly bothered by its existence so much as bothered that its simply a clearly better option then any other alternative by a long shot. With an insane amount of benefits with nearly 0 downsides to it.

I'm curious to see what the JJ changes will bring. I'm betting there will probably be a hit to mid air turning (probably only allowed to turn while you are engaging the JJ's,) and I'm HOPING there is a relook at the mechanics to possibly see jumps be more of a "burst" then a gentle climb.

[Nick Makiaveli]

Or treat pop-tarts lime clays at the range....just yell Pull!!! when you see one.

They can't change direction once they in the air unless they drop early (which messes up their shot) all of which means you can set up a shot for where they will be a light them up.

[Jaguar Prime]

I'm noticing how folks just don't want to make poptarting harder, they want to eliminate it all together.

Why not just make it require more skill to use. It should be a viable playstyle. Just not the dominant playstyle. Of course there are going to be a few pilots that will excel but that is with any playstyle.

I would suggest reverting JJ's back to having the take off delay like back in CB. Maybe not to that extreme but maybe a .5 - 1 sec. delay. And base the delay on the number of JJ's equipped. This won't kill poptarting but adds a little more difficulty to it without killing it. Those that get good at dealing with the jump delay will be rewarded by still being able to do it while discouraging any and everyone from doing it.

From my recollection, It was after the removal of the take off delay in CB that poptarting started to proliferate.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

I don't want to see poptarting disappear all together but at the moment it does seem to outclass other methods of play.

I've been thinking that reticle shake on the way down might do it. Not nearly as much shake on the way up but enough to allow you to hit a mech at say 500m but not really allow you to pick the location of the hit. Might be going a bit too far though.

[poopenshire]

do not forget most maps have spots where you can walk up to a peak and shoot pop-tart like shots without JJ. I hope people are confusing walking vs. JJ. I bet most players who you think Use JJ are actually just walking up to a peak.

[Gaan Cathal]

Mad Elf, on 12 February 2014 - 04:50 AM, said:

2. Increase convergence time for all weapons.

For all weapons (arm-mounted or otherwise) to hit the same spot, the 'mech must compensate for the range to the target. This compensation must take significant time (several tenths of a second), and must not be possible when the reticle is shaking all over the place.

Implementing this will mean that if the pop-tart fires a snap-shot at the apex of the jump, some of the rounds will miss the target area (or miss altogether).

SpiralFace, on 12 February 2014 - 05:33 AM, said:

2: I really wish they played around with this more. Its an interesting scenario that only MW would have because most shooters only focus on one weapon at a time firing at one location at a time. There might be some technical reasons relating to the fact that "Other games don't use this" that might see the code for that kind of functionality un-supported. Which means they would have to build it up from scratch if they wanted to implement it.

Once upon a time MW:O did have convergence time, hence there being a pilot skill to reduce it. However, it was removed due to some unspecified technical issues and PGI have made it clear it is staying gone. A huge amount could be fixed if convergence worked the way it did in early Beta: this anti-poptart solution, having slower convergence when not locked, having convergence distance be dictated by locked target as opposed to pixel-under-cursor and so on. However, it's apparently unworkable.

[NRP]

Rather than Nerf JJs to hell (which will hurt light mechs a lot more that poptarting assaults by the way), I would rather PGI give us more brawler-oriented maps like HPG and Crimson. On those two maps, I see a lot of good old fashioned "in your face" brawling.

[SpiralFace]

Nick Makiaveli, on 12 February 2014 - 07:10 AM, said:

Or treat pop-tarts lime clays at the range....just yell Pull!!! when you see one.

They can't change direction once they in the air unless they drop early (which messes up their shot) all of which means you can set up a shot for where they will be a light them up.

See, I do think you should be able to twist mid air, as that is something that is from the BG that did indeed make JJ's useful, and THAT aspect should be preserved.

Now that being said, I don't think you should be able to have so much flexibility that you can make pin point turns half way through your jump. I mean, I did some tests last night using my jenner, and on a level plane in the water of river city, I was able to twist in a full rotation 2.75 times in my jenner before I hit the ground. This is insane.

If anything, you should be capped at 180 throughout the jump duration. This will allow you to still make adjustments to your landing facing, but it won't be so flexible that you can just turn on a dime mid air like you can now.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

poopenshire, on 12 February 2014 - 08:00 AM, said:

do not forget most maps have spots where you can walk up to a peak and shoot pop-tart like shots without JJ. I hope people are confusing walking vs. JJ. I bet most players who you think Use JJ are actually just walking up to a peak.

This is unlikely. The mechs that poptart almost universally have waist level hard points. Then you must consider the slower pace of walking up hill in a heavy or assault mech compared to jumping, and the slower retreat speed of walking down hill vs. falling back to the ground.

[Fut]

Jaguar Prime, on 12 February 2014 - 07:47 AM, said:

I'm noticing how folks just don't want to make poptarting harder, they want to eliminate it all together.

Why not just make it require more skill to use. It should be a viable playstyle. Just not the dominant playstyle. Of course there are going to be a few pilots that will excel but that is with any playstyle.

Exactly this.
Although I'm not a poptarter myself (I actually think it's pretty silly, and boring to watch on Spectator mode), I don't think it should be eliminated as a play style.
However, when you think about what's actually going on, this jump/shoot/land technique should require a lot more skill than it currently does.

Two things that I would modify to make Poptarting more of an art:
- Weapon Convergence: Increase the time needed to get your weapons on target.
- Falling Damage increase: Increase the amount of damage taken from falling. It's ridiculous to see massive Mechs climb into the sky, take a shot, then crash back into the ground like it's nothing. Jumping should require a controlled decent, or the leg assembly of the Mech is going to take heavy damage.

(New Module Idea: Advanced Shock Absorbers: Reduce the amount of falling damage taken by 10%)

Quick anecdote regarding JumpJets:
Was playing on Canyon the other night, stuck with my team in the Killzone (lower left of the map). We were holding both sides decently, until 5 or 6 of the enemy came hopping over the big ridge. My god, what a sight that was! Very impressive, very intimidating. As soon as they started coming over, I knew we were finished. We all died horrible deaths, but I'll never forget that sight, or the "uh-oh" feeling I had as they crested the hill.

To me, this is what Jump Jets are for. Increased mobility, the ability to get up and over terrain that would stop normal Mechs. I'm not against people using JJs for shooting, I just think that it shouldn't be so easy to accomplish.

[MeiSooHaityu]

I always wondered if going to limited JJ fuel per match would be a descent fix too.

* Amount of JJs also affects the amount of fuel on-board
* Heavier mechs use more fuel and therefore could jump less per match than lighter mechs. Assaults might only be able to jump around 6 or so times before fuel is out, where as Lights could jump around 40 times. Heavy and Mediums in between where Mediums are closer to lights (maybe about 25 times) and Heavies closer to Assaults (maybe about 12 times). Again, excat times would vary per amount of JJs installed.
* Module for additional JJ fuel or skill tree unlock for additional fuel

The amount of times a mech could jump could be tweaked from the numbers I posted, I just posted numbers as an example.

Wouldn't stop poptarting, but would make its usage a decision instead of a no brainer. Do I keep some fuel for manuverability, or do I use it for jump sniping?

The amounts would also need to be skewed a bit so Lights still maintain their ability to evade, but heavier mechs can still use it to climb difficult terrain and still potentially have fuel for jump sniping (but only a bit more to keep occurences limited).

I think ideally a Light should have enough fuel to JJ a descent amount and not run out in a match, but Assaults and Heavies would have enough JJs to climb terrain the about the average amount of times per match one would expect.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 12 February 2014 - 08:55 AM.

[Stelar 7]

Fut, on 12 February 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

Exactly this.
Although I'm not a poptarter myself (I actually think it's pretty silly, and boring to watch on Spectator mode), I don't think it should be eliminated as a play style.
However, when you think about what's actually going on, this jump/shoot/land technique should require a lot more skill than it currently does.

If you don't do it why do you think you know how much skill it takes? People talk about jump sniping as if all you do is hit the space bar and damage is magically applied to your enemies with no risk. That is false. To get the shot you have to hang your mech in the air, and you are vulnerable doing it. The jumper has to find a target and hit it in small fractions of a second, UNLESS the target is standing in the open like a fool. Standing in the open w/o moving should be punished. It is. Jumping up and down in place also comes with pain, folks can line up and wait for the "Pull". I do it all the time.