239 replies to this topic

[stjobe]

Craig Steele, on 13 February 2014 - 01:13 AM, said:

You see whats happening here. If IS tech isn't balanced to Clan's, why would people use IS.

Because 12 'mechs means having two more 'mechs on the field than 10?

One would hope that the technical advantage of Clan tech could be balanced such that being numerically inferior would make the matches even. I won't hold my breath for PGI to pull that one off though.

Oh, and I realize I'm not "most players", but I'll never use a Clan 'mech. Ever. I've loathed that crap since it first arrived in 1990.

[Gaan Cathal]

stjobe, on 13 February 2014 - 01:18 AM, said:

One would hope that the technical advantage of Clan tech

Technical advantage of Clan Assaults. UAC/20 (and SSRM6, probably) are the only things on the cards that will anywhere near make up for the massive nerfhammer the actual mechs (less so the assaults) are getting.

[Khobai]

Quote

When a player chooses his mech, the majority of competitive players will choose a mech that gives them an advantage, in this case, Clan mechs.

The majority of competitive players may choose clan mechs. But the majority of players are not competitive players. Thats the key fact you seem to be missing.

Go pug some games, the majority of players dont use meta highlanders/victors. For most players, branching out and playing other mechs, even if they're inferior, is completely normal. Its only the 14-18 year olds swinging their epeens around that only pilot highlanders/victors every single game. But thankfully theyre not the majority.

There will be more than enough IS players, simply because so many people have invested in IS mechs already.

Edited by Khobai, 13 February 2014 - 01:36 AM.

[Thorn Hallis]

Ain't gonna work.

Khobai, on 13 February 2014 - 01:30 AM, said:

The majority of competitive players may choose clan mechs. But the majority of players are not competitive players. Thats the key fact you seem to be missing.

Go pug some games, the majority of players dont use meta highlanders/victors. For most players, branching out and playing other mechs, even if they're inferior, is completely normal. Its only the 14-18 year olds swinging their epeens around that only pilot highlanders/victors every single game. But thankfully theyre not most players.

But they know the Timber Wolf. And they keep askin' for it since November 2011. And they will always chose what "looks" best on paper.

Keep 10 vs 12 for those who want to roleplay in private matches, but in PuG games it will never work.

[KharnZor]

I see oceans of tears from dead clanners ahead

[Khobai]

Quote

But they know the Timber Wolf. And they keep askin' for it since November 2011. And they will always chose what "looks" best on paper.

The Timberwolf cant even use large ballistics. I dont see how it looks best on paper.

[stjobe]

Thorn Hallis, on 13 February 2014 - 01:36 AM, said:

10 vs 12 [...] in PuG games it will never work.

That's mostly because the game actively hinders the communication needed to take advantage of being two 'mechs up.

[Khobai]

Quote

That's mostly because the game actively hinders the communication needed to take advantage of being two 'mechs up.

Yeah but for all we know clanners might not even be able to share sensor information. Downsides like that could be more than enough to tip the scales back towards IS. I believe 10v12 can be balanced if its handled properly, and asymmetrical balance typically makes games more tactical and enjoyable. but PGI could just as easily screw it up bigtime... because its well... PGI.

Edited by Khobai, 13 February 2014 - 01:46 AM.

[Reno Blade]

Before the Dev Vlog2, I had the impression that we all just buy clanmechs and everything will be mixed up in our 12v12 matches.

But in the Vlog2, it sounded like we will actually fight Clan vs IS.
Now the question is, what happens if a group of IS mercs with 12 Clanmechs will have to fight 10 claners with clanmechs?

Does that mean if I want to play a clan mech then everyone on my team has too... more a of a deal breaker to me that 10vs12. Then by that reasoning house exclusive mechs should only be allowed to fight with xyz house :/

[GalaxyBluestar]

Craig Steele, on 13 February 2014 - 01:13 AM, said:

Your deduction wasn't my assertion so label away as much as you like.

I'll be clearer.

Most players will want to play the most competitive mech every game they play.

so that's why every single mech in game is a poptart highlander... oh wait.

Craig Steele, on 13 February 2014 - 01:13 AM, said:

Clan tech will need to be a superior tech base to even consider a 10 v 12 environment.

When a player chooses his mech, the majority of competitive players will choose a mech that gives them an advantage, in this case, Clan mechs.

so you're saying clan tech needs to be superior, which it will be as half the scaremongers here are convinced, in order to be balanced with 10vs 12 but then you say that they're not balanced by being OP so people will play them more even though you're saying they are balanced with 10vs12? so you've just cancled out you're own argument, they're either balanced or they aren't they can't be both.

10vs12 is sounding more sensible than ever now.

Reno Blade, on 13 February 2014 - 01:47 AM, said:

Before the Dev Vlog2, I had the impression that we all just buy clanmechs and everything will be mixed up in our 12v12 matches.

But in the Vlog2, it sounded like we will actually fight Clan vs IS.
Now the question is, what happens if a group of IS mercs with 12 Clanmechs will have to fight 10 claners with clanmechs?

Does that mean if I want to play a clan mech then everyone on my team has too... more a of a deal breaker to me that 10vs12. Then by that reasoning house exclusive mechs should only be allowed to fight with xyz house :/

i would guess if that situation arrives all you're clan mechs would be sent to a 10vs10 clan vs clan with 2 people being booted. clan tech would be indistinguishable whether you're lonewolf, clan affiliation or run a mix team of wolf's dragoons {i supect they'd be the only team allowed to do so}

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 13 February 2014 - 02:21 AM.

[Gaan Cathal]

Reno Blade, on 13 February 2014 - 01:47 AM, said:

Before the Dev Vlog2, I had the impression that we all just buy clanmechs and everything will be mixed up in our 12v12 matches.

But in the Vlog2, it sounded like we will actually fight Clan vs IS.
Now the question is, what happens if a group of IS mercs with 12 Clanmechs will have to fight 10 claners with clanmechs?

What happens is Inner Sphere mercs don't have Clan mechs.

Reno Blade, on 13 February 2014 - 01:47 AM, said:

Does that mean if I want to play a clan mech then everyone on my team has too... more a of a deal breaker to me that 10vs12. Then by that reasoning house exclusive mechs should only be allowed to fight with xyz house :/

No, that reasoning does not follow. All Inner Sphere mechs follow essentially the same tech base, and the Houses (and mercs) can, will and do use captured mechs on a fairly regular basis (kill the meat, save the metal). Clan technology is a different, albeit related, tech base with a lot more advancement. Obligatory real life example: Put a WW2 era Luftwaffe pilot in a Mig-3 and, presuming he could read Russian, he'd do fine. Put him in a Mig-35 and he'd have no clue what he was doing.

[xengk]

10v12 is lore friendly and all, but are we forgetting the players behind the keyboard/joystick are not vat grown super warrior honed from a life time of battle?
Once the first 1 or 2 Clan mech goes down, Clan team is going to experience stomping from the IS horde.
.

[Craig Steele]

Gaan Cathal, on 13 February 2014 - 01:17 AM, said:

You're behind the times. In MW:O Clan Mechs have less speed, less armour and slightly lighter weapons.

Seriously, the Summoner has less armour than a Hunchback, and both Lights will be plodding along at 97kph. Maybe half of the Clan mechs currently announced will escape being DoA, and two of them are in the same weight class.

PGI have already said Clan mech armour can be increased so yes pound for pound a Summoner has a much higher armour value potential than a Hunchback and can still have more weapons and mobility and heatsicks.

Khobai, on 13 February 2014 - 01:30 AM, said:

The majority of competitive players may choose clan mechs. But the majority of players are not competitive players. Thats the key fact you seem to be missing.

Go pug some games, the majority of players dont use meta highlanders/victors. For most players, branching out and playing other mechs, even if they're inferior, is completely normal. Its only the 14-18 year olds swinging their epeens around that only pilot highlanders/victors every single game. But thankfully theyre not the majority.

There will be more than enough IS players, simply because so many people have invested in IS mechs already.

Maybe its poor terminology on my part but I don;t use the term competive in this context as "meta". What I am saying is that is a player logs on to MWO he will want to play to win (most of the time). And often that will mean for a big slice of the population choosing a technology advantage.

Right now, how many players are asking for match after match where they are 100 tons down on total drop weight. No one. Cause they are competitive and they want to win. Most player will not ask to be on a disadvantaged side, and at the time they are picking the their mech (before team, before mission etc) their tendenancy will be to pick the mech that pound for pound gives them the best chance of winning.

GalaxyBluestar, on 13 February 2014 - 02:10 AM, said:

so that's why every single mech in game is a poptart highlander... oh wait.



so you're saying clan tech needs to be superior, which it will be as half the scaremongers here are convinced, in order to be balanced with 10vs 12 but then you say that they're not balanced by being OP so people will play them more even though you're saying they are balanced with 10vs12? so you've just cancled out you're own argument, they're either balanced or they aren't they can't be both.

10vs12 is sounding more sensible than ever now.

I am saying that if PGI are suggesting 10 v 12 is going to happen they are conceeding Clan tech will be superior, otherwise how can 10 v 12 be balanced. One v one they have to be, and most players will think the same.

Theory crafting about what value team play brings into the equation is all well and good, but fundamentally unless the player knows the other strengths (such as dropping with 8 freinds or some such) of his team then they will choose a mech that gives him the best chance of contributing, and that will be clan tech.

How many Locusts do you see out there? I see maybe one in every 5/6 matches on average. Players won't choose what they know is going to be contributing less to their game.

[Gaan Cathal]

Craig Steele, on 13 February 2014 - 02:29 AM, said:

PGI have already said Clan mech armour can be increased so yes pound for pound a Summoner has a much higher armour value potential than a Hunchback and can still have more weapons and mobility and heatsicks.

Wait, what? When the hell did that change?

[Boymonkey]

Craig Steele, on 12 February 2014 - 09:37 PM, said:

Absolute rubbish.

That means Clan tech will have to be superior to IS tech.

Players will gravitate to Clan mechs, player population is mostly Clan, we fight over Pentagon and Clan space, IS warfare dies.

Only the weak minded will move FRR will fight and destroy the clan scumbags!!!

[stjobe]

Craig Steele, on 13 February 2014 - 02:29 AM, said:

PGI have already said Clan mech armour can be increased

Not exactly. They said in vlog2 that Clan 'mech armour can be re-distributed, but they never said explicitly that it can be increased:

Quote

We realize that the Table top armor placement is not necessarily the best armor placement for our game, so this is one of the instances where we’re going to break those rules and allow you to redistribute your armor as you see fit in order to best protect your ‘mech for our game…. But the type, whether it is going to be standard or ferro-fiborous is going to be fixed, and there won’t be any change to that.

[Craig Steele]

Gaan Cathal, on 13 February 2014 - 02:31 AM, said:

Wait, what? When the hell did that change?

Last week I think, I saw some Clan update. Armour types are still fixed, but you can add more.

I think the unwritten rule is nothing goes below TT specs, but if you want to reduce weapons for extra heatsinks / armour then they're happy for that.

EDIT: Rechecking thread now, will eat my words if it;s not there

Edited by Craig Steele, 13 February 2014 - 02:43 AM.

[Lupin]

Craig Steele, on 13 February 2014 - 01:01 AM, said:

Unless that clan mech with more speed, more armour, more weapons and more heat sinks comes up behind you with his ecm (which weighs less) and shoots you in the back.

Are you assuming the both sides/teams will not be mixed IS & Clan. As it seems PGI aiming for mixed teams.
So likely will some down to skill and tactics GOD HELP US ALL

[GalaxyBluestar]

Lupin, on 13 February 2014 - 02:47 AM, said:

Are you assuming the both sides/teams will not be mixed IS & Clan. As it seems PGI aiming for mixed teams.
So likely will some down to skill and tactics GOD HELP US ALL

well they said no mix tech and it looks like clan vs IS, all as it should be, we're just waiting for confirmation that balancing help will arrive in the form of 2 star vs 3-4 lances or not.

xengk, on 13 February 2014 - 02:29 AM, said:

10v12 is lore friendly and all, but are we forgetting the players behind the keyboard/joystick are not vat grown super warrior honed from a life time of battle?
Once the first 1 or 2 Clan mech goes down, Clan team is going to experience stomping from the IS horde.
.

as it should be, be skilled to survive, but hey clans are the OP scarry tech that'll break the game. come on scaremongers chant with me IS GOT SCRAPED CLANS ARE OP!

Craig Steele, on 13 February 2014 - 02:29 AM, said:

PGI have already said Clan mech armour can be increased so yes pound for pound a Summoner has a much higher armour value potential than a Hunchback and can still have more weapons and mobility and heatsicks.



Maybe its poor terminology on my part but I don;t use the term competive in this context as "meta". What I am saying is that is a player logs on to MWO he will want to play to win (most of the time). And often that will mean for a big slice of the population choosing a technology advantage.

Right now, how many players are asking for match after match where they are 100 tons down on total drop weight. No one. Cause they are competitive and they want to win. Most player will not ask to be on a disadvantaged side, and at the time they are picking the their mech (before team, before mission etc) their tendenancy will be to pick the mech that pound for pound gives them the best chance of winning.



I am saying that if PGI are suggesting 10 v 12 is going to happen they are conceeding Clan tech will be superior, otherwise how can 10 v 12 be balanced. One v one they have to be, and most players will think the same.

Theory crafting about what value team play brings into the equation is all well and good, but fundamentally unless the player knows the other strengths (such as dropping with 8 freinds or some such) of his team then they will choose a mech that gives him the best chance of contributing, and that will be clan tech.

How many Locusts do you see out there? I see maybe one in every 5/6 matches on average. Players won't choose what they know is going to be contributing less to their game.

well sorry to break it too ya but clans with less weight and tonnage will always be better, PGI can't nerf 'em to 1vs1 without totally ruining stock configs. that's why they need the 10vs12 to even it up. of course scaremongers wouldn't even be satisfied with that. clan xls UAC's they'll kill us all wah! where as poptarting which offers long range hits with little retaliation oppotunity hasn't screwed the game at all...

for sure people will gravitate at first. new tech oh so better but then they get in them and find the heat horrible the lowslung arms on virtually all of them, the ghost heat, the lack of numbers advantage, they'll have to know what they're doing like in everything else in order to win. many won't have those skills thinking they got a golden ticket to derp mode and won't understand the nerfs and drawbacks and will fail. i can't wait for their tears as IS populations swell up again.

there will always be the bad mechs, they are out there like awesomes and stuff, clans will have theirs {the lights are big candidates} and not everyone runs the uber mech, the nerfs like ghost heat and the latest one on JJ's will mean everything is just as crap as the other, clans will suffer from these rules too, ghost heat will really hurt 'em. better tech but at such a cost only the patient and skilled will survive to carry on using them. at least that's what pgi are hoping for i just think the nerf hammer will be too hard on 'em.

Craig Steele, on 13 February 2014 - 02:41 AM, said:

Last week I think, I saw some Clan update. Armour types are still fixed, but you can add more.

I think the unwritten rule is nothing goes below TT specs, but if you want to reduce weapons for extra heatsinks / armour then they're happy for that.

EDIT: Rechecking thread now, will eat my words if it;s not there

don't worry on that score, it's armour distribution points, the clans won't be gaining anything over IS counterparts, infact some clan mechs will still be a little less armoured than some IS mechs. atlas still has uber amount of armour.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 13 February 2014 - 03:10 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

that's why they need the 10vs12 to even it up

they dont need 10v12 to balance it. it just makes sense because two stars vs three lances.

they could also balance it 12v12 by giving the clan side less tonnage. So like the IS might get 720 tons while clan side only gets 600 tons.