285 replies to this topic

[YueFei]

Joseph Mallan, on 15 February 2014 - 10:55 AM, said:

You wanna fast Hunch you're going to give up something, So what is it, cause you would not be happy to try and flank most of my Mechs. I have a 6/9/12 Berzerker that would like to see your Hunchie on a dark street!

Can we talk about what is in *this* game when discussing MWO gameplay balance? My HBK runs 98 kph in this game, with STD engine, what mech bigger than me can catch up to me? Dragons and Quickdraws using XL? A Shadowhawk that can either take a big STD engine (and sacrifice loadout) or pack a vulnerable XL? I'm carrying pretty much my full payload at that speed.

See? I have the choice to disengage from most mechs bigger than me. Too bad there's nothing on the map to re-engage because we're fighting in these tiny boxes with very little objective gameplay.

You watch American Football, Joe? What do you think would happen to the sport if the field was 30 feet wide (instead of 160 feet wide) and the forward pass was made illegal? Suddenly you think all those receivers, running backs, and corner backs will still have a job? What was changed? The athletes and their abilities didn't change. It's the design of the sport that promotes the diversity of athletes' body types in football. There's no need to "balance" the athletes in head-to-head contests of brute strength. No one expects the wide receivers to put a block on a defensive end.

You like history, Joe? I already cited one instance where superior strategic speed was used to defeat a foe with more firepower. You were in the military, so you should appreciate that. Do you think what I'm asking for is ridiculous?

[Jman5]

YueFei, on 15 February 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

Guys, due to "ELO", almost *any* loadout you choose will be able to perform decently, with occasional games of brilliance. The matchmaker is trying to make sure you have a good time and perform decently.

I could run a crappy mech and consistently drag my team down until the matchmaker finds a way for me to win.

If you really want to know where you stand, and you genuinely have the courage to do it, pit yourself against the best pilots in this game, the guys who play competitive 12s and win tournaments. At least with those guys, you know "ELO" has nothing to do with their success.

This is what makes the whole argument about balance frustrating. You can find personal success with literally anything and at any skill. Elo compensates for your strengths and weaknesses by trying to find equal opponents/teammates. Without knowing what your score is, you don't really know where you stand. This only breaks down at the very upper and very lower ends of the Elo spectrum because there is no where for the matchmaker to go anymore.

When all the good meta players are locked away in High-Elo and 12-mans, it's real easy to get a warped sense of balance. Sometimes I wish I could grab all these naysayers, put them into a 12-man and just have them face RHOD competitive teams for a week straight.

Edited by Jman5, 15 February 2014 - 11:37 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

See? I have the choice to disengage from most mechs bigger than me. Too bad there's nothing on the map to re-engage because we're fighting in these tiny boxes with very little objective gameplay.

I would actually argue that 98kph isnt quite fast enough to disengage from a Victor chasing you at 80kph with jumpjets. And that pretty much illustrates the entire problem with mediums right there... you cant go fast enough to disengage at will.

[Trauglodyte]

Quite frankly, Jman, I'd love to face SoK, SJR, HoL, etc every match. The one thing that really frustrates me about this game is that you don't have the ability to actually know who the best are and then pick their brains about what is and isn't working and what you're doing right or wrong. I've only been top 1% in any game and that was Everquest as a pulling monk. The rest of the games that I've played, I've been close to the top because I worked at it, asked questions, and read everything that I could. Here, it isn't as straight forward. There isn't an Elitist Jerks site where people theory craft and model stuff out. The Training Grounds are really really lacking in what we need to test and try things. And the game is so basic in that you point, pull the trigger, and you either do or don't do damage based on what happened in between.

Now, as to the argument about engaging and disengaging a target in combat. There are a couple of things that people are missing out on. First off, the maps aren't never ending. This, combined with the fact that fights aren't 1v1 duels, means that they've got friends and, even if you do disengage, you're only going to temporarily evade them before you either get cornered due to running out of terrain or you run into their backup. In either case, whether you're going 70, 90, or 110, you're stuck with the issue of "you can run but you can't hide". Secondly, while you might be able to outrun that Atlas, being able to outrun the LRMs, ballistics, or long ranged beam weapons is something entirely different. That combined with the first point limits the entire concept of getting in and out of range. So, when we talk about Lights and fast Mediums/Heavies (Dragons and Quickdraws) skirmishing in fights, you're really talking about skirting the edges, firing a few times, and the pulling back to your own lines. There is no real vangarding like the lore speaks where you sneak behind the lines and blast people in the back and set up camp there. You can do that against bad teams but not against people that know what they're doing.

That last point brings me back to what I said, rather harshly, before. Damage done is a horrible vector upon which to base skill, capabilities, etc. I came out of a game earlier in my meta-Victor (<sigh> I know) and I did 750 some odd damage with 7 kills and 5 assists. I felt ok about it but I missed a lot of my shots. I put a few on the arms when I aimed for side torsos which means that I wasted ammo, heat, and time. I also went for legs a few times because it was faster due to damage already existing. That extended the time it took to kill the target because legs are harder to hit, depending on the mech, and you've got to burn through two to get the kill. The number was nice and the kills were great but a lot of that was due to the opposing team splitting up (go go gadget lances ramboing into full teams). Context is everything.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 15 February 2014 - 11:55 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

YueFei, on 15 February 2014 - 11:13 AM, said:

Can we talk about what is in *this* game when discussing MWO gameplay balance? My HBK runs 98 kph in this game, with STD engine, what mech bigger than me can catch up to me? Dragons and Quickdraws using XL? A Shadowhawk that can either take a big STD engine (and sacrifice loadout) or pack a vulnerable XL? I'm carrying pretty much my full payload at that speed.

Pretty Baby With tweaks 89 Kph/

Quote

You watch American Football, Joe? What do you think would happen to the sport if the field was 30 feet wide (instead of 160 feet wide) and the forward pass was made illegal? Suddenly you think all those receivers, running backs, and corner backs will still have a job? What was changed? The athletes and their abilities didn't change. It's the design of the sport that promotes the diversity of athletes' body types in football. There's no need to "balance" the athletes in head-to-head contests of brute strength. No one expects the wide receivers to put a block on a defensive end.

You'd be playing a different game, and not football, Unless you never plaid backyard football... I have.

Quote

You like history, Joe? I already cited one instance where superior strategic speed was used to defeat a foe with more firepower. You were in the military, so you should appreciate that. Do you think what I'm asking for is ridiculous?

Yes I was in the military, Everyone had the same weapons, the training and was told exactly what to do and when to do it. Do I think what you are asking for is rediculous? If you are asking for something that is by all intent and purpose average to be something more. Yes you are asking to much.

[Mystere]

YueFei, on 15 February 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

Unfortunately PGI seems to hate this concept, look at what they did with the cap points on Alpine in Conquest mode! I mean WTF?

That's because people whined endlessly about it. And as a result, we now have a good large map that has a lot of unused areas.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 15 February 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:

I would actually argue that 98kph isnt quite fast enough to disengage from a Victor chasing you at 80kph with jumpjets. And that pretty much illustrates the entire problem with mediums right there... you cant go fast enough to disengage at will.

See the problem comes with the limitless enginre mods. TT you had to much Limitations. An Engine had to match a # of Hexes to be used by your Mech. I would love to have a 350 engine in a Battlemaster but you can't cause the math won't let you.

So we have good and bad issues with how MW:O handles engine swaping. Like my Atlas should get to have a 400 rate engine... That isn't to fast to cause lag. But a Jenner doing 300KpH might crash the game!

Also the Pretty baby can keep up with his 50 tonner... kinda like a Charger was faster than a Hunchback on TT... just couldn't handle the smaller Mechs fire power!

[Rebas Kradd]

Khobai, on 15 February 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

That makes no sense. The whole point of adding damage spread is to make pinpointing the CT impossible. With proper implementation of damage spread, any attempt to shoot the CT will just result in some damage to the CT and the rest of the damage being spread to other locations.

Sorry, I disagree. You have to think about how people will react to their awareness of no convergence. The average player in a no-convergence game will think to himself, "I've got no way to shoot the arm off in that mech in an efficient way. My damage won't go where I want it to, and it will take me longer just to remove a section of his weaponry. It's a much better use of my time to just pile onto the CT." And so they will, because with damage spreading out, players will at least want that damage to be on the most crucial section possible, the torsos.

End result is that TTK increases a bit (but probably not all that much, because the bigger problem is lots of mechs in a game, bad player maneuvering, and high damage output in general), but "shoot the CT" remains intact and targeting components becomes even more of a niche game. Meanwhile, there are other ways to address TTK.

Now, I hear your response - "but with pinpoint convergence, people just target the CT anyway in order to core him quickly." Fine and good point. (I honestly don't get a lot of pinpoint shots like that, because I rarely stand still nor poptart.) But there are much more directed solutions to that problem. At least with the current setup, people have the opportunity to engage in component targeting if they want to. The mechanic takes some bad with the good. Which would you rather have: Shoot the CT, or Shoot the CT With the Option to Shave Off Components?

Meanwhile, we experience some irritating meta behavior from a subset of cases (high pinpoint alphas) that gets magnified by player behavior, and instead of turning to other solutions that are less disruptive to the game's landscape, you actually want PGI to remove a core game mechanic, sacrifice an important nuance, and completely and utterly blow up the applecart and start all over in terms of weapon balance (which is the inevitable result) just to address a subset of problems. That's using a fire hose to give someone a drink and it's not good game design.

Note: I don't really have a problem with PPCs doing splash damage, given their range. But other weapons need to retain directed damage or we get the above result.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 15 February 2014 - 12:10 PM.

[YueFei]

Joseph Mallan, on 15 February 2014 - 11:53 AM, said:

Pretty Baby With tweaks 89 Kph/

98 > 89. Are you dyslexic, Joe?

Quote

You'd be playing a different game, and not football, Unless you never plaid backyard football... I have.

And in the hypothetical game I outlined, you think you'd see anything but 350+ pound linemen types on the field?

I played plenty of "backyard" football, which has nothing to do with organized football, even at the High School level.

Do you not see that Football features such a wide variety of athletes because the sport is designed in such a way that speed is important? Without speed being the be-all and end-all?

Do you not see how this analogizes with MWO? There's no need to "balance" the game so that my Hunchback can take an Atlas 1 on 1, and I'm not asking for that. I'm asking for more interesting game modes, which is not only going to deepen the strategic aspects of the gameplay, but is *more* realistic, to boot.

Quote

Yes I was in the military, Everyone had the same weapons, the training and was told exactly what to do and when to do it. Do I think what you are asking for is rediculous? If you are asking for something that is by all intent and purpose average to be something more. Yes you are asking to much.

No, different units have different weapons and different roles. You have riflemen. You have artillery. You have tanks. You have air cavalry. OMG, it's like real life militaries use different units to fulfill different *roles*. Yeah, it's so ridiculous of me to ask that MWO feature gameplay and objectives and this mythical thing they call "role warfare", which the developers of this game promised from the very beginning.

Stop being facetious, Joe.

Edited by YueFei, 15 February 2014 - 12:11 PM.

[YueFei]

Khobai, on 15 February 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:

I would actually argue that 98kph isnt quite fast enough to disengage from a Victor chasing you at 80kph with jumpjets. And that pretty much illustrates the entire problem with mediums right there... you cant go fast enough to disengage at will.

Depends on the situation and how close that Victor is to me. It's always possible to wait until it's too late, even in a Light mech. If I fight a crackshot Victor pilot in my Jenner at 150 meters with no cover nearby, odds are that I'm going to die. I still remember DrxAbstract intercepting my Jenner as I tried to escape from the enemy base by going thru "Jenner Alley" on Frozen City. He two-shotted my Jenner in 4 seconds. I wasn't even trying to fight him, I was trying to get the hell out.

My mistake in that match was not properly scouting the escape route before jumping down into it. That, and DrxAbstract made a good move, anticipating the escape route I would use.

Edited by YueFei, 15 February 2014 - 12:30 PM.

[Artgathan]

YueFei, on 15 February 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

No, different units have different weapons and different roles. You have riflemen. You have artillery. You have tanks. You have air cavalry. OMG, it's like real life militaries use different units to fulfill different *roles*. Yeah, it's so ridiculous of me to ask that MWO feature gameplay and objectives and this mythical thing they call "role warfare", which the developers of this game promised from the very beginning.

Stop being facetious, Joe.

To build on this, even Infantry sections use Riflemen, one of whom has a special rifle (the DMR), Machine-Gunners, Grenade Launchers, Frag and Smoke Grenades, perhaps a shotgun (if the situation calls for it), pistols, bayonets... There's diversification at that level - saying "everyone uses the same weapon" is false.

[Khobai]

I came up with some new skills for mediums and assault mechs. Just to show the advantage of having unique skill trees. Basically Anchor Turn and Speed Tweak are removed as common skills in order to slow down heavies and assaults. Quick Ignition and Fast Fire are basic skills now. Pinpoint is gone completely. And each weight class has its own unique elite and master skills (although I only wrote up skills for mediums and assaults).

All Mechs
[Basic] - basic skills are generic and shared by all weight classes
Anchor Turn (removed as a basic skill)
Coolrun
Heat Containment
Arm Reflex
Kinetic Burst/Hardbrake (merged into one skill)
Twist Speed/Twist X (merged into one skill)
Fast Fire (moved from elite to basic)
Quick Ignition (moved from elite to basic)
Power Reverse (new skill which increases the max speed you can reverse)

Medium-
[Elite] - Elite skills are mostly unique for each weight class, but some might be shared (i.e. speed tweak)
Anchor Turn (+20% turning speed)
Speed Tweak (+10% max speed)
Hill Climbing (20% less deceleration when climbing hills)
Module Slot I (+1 module slot)

[Master]
Speed Tweak II (+10% max speed, cannot exceed 151kph)
Module Slot II (+1 module slot)

Assault-
[Elite]
Shielded Components (+33% health to all items)
Gyroscopic Stabilization (17% screen shake reduction)
Reinforced Structure I (10% damage reduction to internal structure)
Modular Armor (33% more armor from modular armor)

Modular Armor- new item usable by any mech (helps increase TTK at a cost of mobility), weighs 1 ton and 1 crit and adds 15 armor points to the equipped location (max 1 per location). Modular armor also reduces your jumpjet thrust by 10% and movement speed by 5% per modular armor equipped. This penalty goes away when the modular armor is destroyed.

[Master]
Reinforced Structure II (10% damage reduction to internal structure)
Module Slot I (+1 module slot)

Edited by Khobai, 15 February 2014 - 08:25 PM.

[YueFei]

Jman5, on 15 February 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

This is what makes the whole argument about balance frustrating. You can find personal success with literally anything and at any skill. Elo compensates for your strengths and weaknesses by trying to find equal opponents/teammates. Without knowing what your score is, you don't really know where you stand. This only breaks down at the very upper and very lower ends of the Elo spectrum because there is no where for the matchmaker to go anymore.

When all the good meta players are locked away in High-Elo and 12-mans, it's real easy to get a warped sense of balance. Sometimes I wish I could grab all these naysayers, put them into a 12-man and just have them face RHOD competitive teams for a week straight.

That would be amazing if you could make that happen. Either some folk's illusions will be shattered, or brand new tactics/loadouts will arise paving the way for counter-play. Either way it turns out, that will be amazing.

I've suggested that people duke-it-out in the game before, but it's rare that I see anyone respond to that suggestion. Some people are just too scared to put their beliefs to the test. I highly respect players like Varent, who not only debate on the forum, but offer to test it in the game. Because people like that are honest, and whether they win or lose in such a test, they have the courage to step up and walk the walk, not just talk the talk.

[Duncan Fisher]

ByteHacker, on 14 February 2014 - 11:25 PM, said:

As we all know, medium mechs serve no purpose.

They are not fast enough to run away from a fight and come out intact and not strong enough to pack a punch.

Medium mechs really need a buff. Especially the Centurions

I propose MOAR speed and MOAR armour and MOAR everything

[Firewuff]

rolly, on 15 February 2014 - 06:44 AM, said:

I like my oversized Shadowhawk, the emaciated Griffin and Beaker-like Wolverine. Sure scaling is way off, but it reminds me of the miniatures!

I don't see anything wrong with the mediums. Its a particular style of play to use them effectively. Is it just me of this reminds me of WoT when medium tank drivers would complain about how their medium isn't good enough when they're playing it like a heavy.

Funny thing is if you look from a realisting perspective the scaling isn't off. Even against some of the SARNA specs they are not that bad

As for all the bitching on mediums and SRM's... I love my commando with SRM's and even my Griff with SRM's... use them right and I can pull 400 in a commando and 600 in the griff. I've topped 1k on my hunchback, wolvie and shadowhawk.

Like lights they take skill and a different way of thinking than an atlas..... dont slug and use your speed.

[Khobai]

Firewuff, on 15 February 2014 - 05:54 PM, said:

Funny thing is if you look from a realisting perspective the scaling isn't off. Even against some of the SARNA specs they are not that bad

Its far worse on some mechs than others. For example the Trebuchet is as tall as an Awesome.

[Felicitatem Parco]

People usually disregard a Mech's thinness when considering size...

A 50 ton Mech that's as tall as an Atlas but with thinner arms, legs, and a slimmer side profile is technically scaled correctly.

(addendum: A Mech that's 79% as tall, wide, and deep as an Atlas will weigh 49 tons. That's only 20% shorter than an Atlas. If it's exactly as tall as an Atlas and ~70% as thick and broad, then it's still only 49 tons. If it's EXACTLY as broad and tall as an Atlas, but with half the side-profile, then it's a 50-tonner.)

Edited by Prosperity Park, 15 February 2014 - 08:46 PM.

[kesuga7]

all i want is for all mediums to be able
to go as fast as a 140 KPH trebuchet

[Reitrix]

Prosperity Park, on 15 February 2014 - 08:36 PM, said:

People usually disregard a Mech's thinness when considering size...

A 50 ton Mech that's as tall as an Atlas but with thinner arms, legs, and a slimmer side profile is technically scaled correctly.

(addendum: A Mech that's 79% as tall, wide, and deep as an Atlas will weigh 49 tons. That's only 20% shorter than an Atlas. If it's exactly as tall as an Atlas and ~70% as thick and broad, then it's still only 49 tons. If it's EXACTLY as broad and tall as an Atlas, but with half the side-profile, then it's a 50-tonner.)

An Atlas tips the scale at 10 tons. It has a 90 ton carrying capacity. That 90 tons is spread between Armor, Engine and weapons.

The "problem" with Mediums is not how fast the Medium does or does not go, It's about how agile the heavier 'Mechs are. My Atlas can twist and turn fast enough to keep up with most Lights that get close and try to go behind. I shouldn't be able to do that.
Slow down the Heavies and Assaults, and Mediums will be indirectly buffed. Also unlink Turn and Twist Speed from Engine rating.

[Khobai]

Quote

A 50 ton Mech that's as tall as an Atlas but with thinner arms, legs, and a slimmer side profile is technically scaled correctly.

I disagree. Since height is the worst dimension. Height makes you easier to hit from virtually every angle (front, back, and sides). While width only makes you easier to hit from the front and back. Its much better to be wide than tall.