Buff Mediums Now!
#261
Posted 21 February 2014 - 01:47 PM
When I say I'm going to mute you, I mute you. And I'm done.
#262
Posted 21 February 2014 - 01:48 PM
(also pretty sure you are the one who keeps calling my piloting skills awesome. I consider them high average. But apparently, since I am so much better than everyone else in my Mediums, by your reasoning, I must really stop selling myself short.)
Edited by Bishop Steiner, 21 February 2014 - 01:49 PM.
#263
Posted 21 February 2014 - 02:01 PM
Bishop Steiner, on 21 February 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:
You missed the point. Given any two mechs in the whole game if the have the same top speed, they have the same turning speed. Doesn't matter if it's a Commando with a STD100, a Cenutrion with an XL200 or an Atlas with a STD400 - all of these mechs go 64.8 kph and they all turn at 45.86 degrees/second.
Also, using these engine sizes (all in degrees/second):
- Commando Pitch Speed: 67, Yaw: 120
- Centurion Pitch Speed: 45, Yaw: 100
- Atlas Pitch Speed: 45, Yaw: 80
Counting the hill climb stats as a "huge advantage" is laughable at best when comparing two mechs that mount jump jets as well.
#264
Posted 21 February 2014 - 02:30 PM
Artgathan, on 21 February 2014 - 02:01 PM, said:
You missed the point. Given any two mechs in the whole game if the have the same top speed, they have the same turning speed. Doesn't matter if it's a Commando with a STD100, a Cenutrion with an XL200 or an Atlas with a STD400 - all of these mechs go 64.8 kph and they all turn at 45.86 degrees/second.
Also, using these engine sizes (all in degrees/second):
- Commando Pitch Speed: 67, Yaw: 120
- Centurion Pitch Speed: 45, Yaw: 100
- Atlas Pitch Speed: 45, Yaw: 80
Counting the hill climb stats as a "huge advantage" is laughable at best when comparing two mechs that mount jump jets as well.
and, you are wrong. Turn speed is NOT the same between mechs just because their cruising speed is. 64 Kph Atlas turns and twists slower than a 64 Kph Hunchback.
#266
Posted 21 February 2014 - 02:34 PM
- YLW w/ a 200 STD goes 71.3 w/ ST while the Victor has a 320 STD and goes the same speed
- Due to having the same speed, they have the same turning speed (45.86 degrees per second)
- With Elite Efficiencies, the YLW has the following stats vs. the Victor:
- Torso Yaw - 144 degrees (288 total) compared to 108 degrees (216 total)
- Torso Pitch - 25 degrees (50 total) compared to 20 degrees (40 total)
- Torso Yaw Speed - 125 degrees/second compared to 80 degrees/second
- Torso Pitch Speed - 56 degrees/second compared to 45 degrees/second
- Arm Yaw - 0 compared to 10 degrees
- Arm Pitch - 35 degrees (70 total) compared to 30 degrees (60 total)
- Arm Yaw Speed - 180 degrees/second compared to 180 degrees/second
- Arm Pitch Speed - 240 degrees/second compared to 180 degrees/second
The point is that both mechs have the same speed and the same weapons but the Victor still edges the YLW despite having marginally less torso/arm angles. So, if you're wanting to buy and run a humanoid mech that comes with an AC20 in the arm and 2 Md Lasers, what is the point of buying the YLW when the Victor provides so much more for such a small loss?
#268
Posted 21 February 2014 - 02:42 PM
Trauglodyte, on 21 February 2014 - 02:34 PM, said:
- YLW w/ a 200 STD goes 71.3 w/ ST while the Victor has a 320 STD and goes the same speed
- Due to having the same speed, they have the same turning speed (45.86 degrees per second)
- With Elite Efficiencies, the YLW has the following stats vs. the Victor:
- Torso Yaw - 144 degrees (288 total) compared to 108 degrees (216 total)
- Torso Pitch - 25 degrees (50 total) compared to 20 degrees (40 total)
- Torso Yaw Speed - 125 degrees/second compared to 80 degrees/second
- Torso Pitch Speed - 56 degrees/second compared to 45 degrees/second
- Arm Yaw - 0 compared to 10 degrees
- Arm Pitch - 35 degrees (70 total) compared to 30 degrees (60 total)
- Arm Yaw Speed - 180 degrees/second compared to 180 degrees/second
- Arm Pitch Speed - 240 degrees/second compared to 180 degrees/second
The point is that both mechs have the same speed and the same weapons but the Victor still edges the YLW despite having marginally less torso/arm angles. So, if you're wanting to buy and run a humanoid mech that comes with an AC20 in the arm and 2 Md Lasers, what is the point of buying the YLW when the Victor provides so much more for such a small loss?
can the Victor run 106 kph? Because running 106 kph with an ac20 is exactly why you buy a YLW.
Artgathan, on 21 February 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:
Source?
I'm quoting values from Smurfy here.
It is possible I am wrong about that, and am thinking twist rates.
#269
Posted 21 February 2014 - 03:05 PM
Bishop Steiner, on 21 February 2014 - 02:42 PM, said:
I'm not arguing that, Bish. I like Mediums and don't think that they're that bad off. Size is a bit of an issue but it really comes down to weapon systems and what quirks you get for being a medium. That is all that I was showing. Given what it takes to run an AC20 and 2x Md Lasers and being 30 tons lighter than the Victor, you'd think that, given the same speeds, there would be more gained than just that.
Now, continue on with the discussion.
#270
Posted 21 February 2014 - 03:28 PM
Trauglodyte, on 21 February 2014 - 03:05 PM, said:
I'm not arguing that, Bish. I like Mediums and don't think that they're that bad off. Size is a bit of an issue but it really comes down to weapon systems and what quirks you get for being a medium. That is all that I was showing. Given what it takes to run an AC20 and 2x Md Lasers and being 30 tons lighter than the Victor, you'd think that, given the same speeds, there would be more gained than just that.
Now, continue on with the discussion.
I get it, just saying that while some things could definitely be improved, that they do indeed have their "niches", which is essentially what some on here are saying they can't do.
#271
Posted 21 February 2014 - 05:53 PM
I understand the whole 'cheaper and easier to produce' argument, but that doesn't hold water in an environment where Cbills are such an easily replenished resource. And I don't want mediums to be the 'play a medium to make Cbills so you can play a match in the mech you really want'.
At high Elo people hit what and where they want to hit. A Victor or Highlander can survive this better than a medium. Sometimes greatly better than a medium, if that medium is a Hunchback.
Do mediums have some characteristics that are better then heavies or assaults? Yes. Can those occasionally turn the tide in a battle? Sure. But overall, they don't make up for the other advantages of 1. more tonnage, 2. Larger engines (and thus potentially more heatsinks and cooling), and 3. higher armor and structure values. It's kind of how PGI thinks giving a Spider the ability to equip 12 jump jets justifies only having 2 weapon hardpoints.
We can't add more tonnage, speed, or armor to mediums, but there should be something to make them stand out as a unique choice.
#272
Posted 21 February 2014 - 07:08 PM
Quote
We can give them more speed though, which is exactly what they need among other things. Mediums need to be able to disengage from fights at will like Light mechs. We can also slow down fast assaults like the Victor which simply should not be allowed to go 80kph.
Mediums should also get an extra module slot over other weight classes. Mediums are supposed to be the most versatile weight class and giving them more modules is one way that versatility can manifest itself.
#273
Posted 21 February 2014 - 09:20 PM
Bishop Steiner, on 21 February 2014 - 01:01 PM, said:
This is why your Victor win. The Shadowhawk can run a bit faster to get into position at the start of the game, but once the fight starts the Victor will dominate. The speed diffrence is not high enough to let the Shadowhawk dodge effectivly or break off the fight without getting 2 alphas in the back and get slaughtered.
#274
Posted 21 February 2014 - 09:38 PM
Cavendish, on 21 February 2014 - 09:20 PM, said:
This is why your Victor win. The Shadowhawk can run a bit faster to get into position at the start of the game, but once the fight starts the Victor will dominate. The speed diffrence is not high enough to let the Shadowhawk dodge effectivly or break off the fight without getting 2 alphas in the back and get slaughtered.
I have several hundred matches that says you are wrong. But feel free to believe otherwise
#275
Posted 21 February 2014 - 09:52 PM
Bishop Steiner, on 21 February 2014 - 09:38 PM, said:
Yeah, that extra speed does let you disengage, but most people wait until it's too late to try to disengage.
Like I said earlier in the thread, it is possible to wait too long to disengage even in a Light mech! A Medium mech pilot has to recognize the situation sooner and foot it the hell out of there sooner.
Speaking of which I just failed badly at reading the situation and getting out in time, LOL....
#276
Posted 21 February 2014 - 10:01 PM
YueFei, on 21 February 2014 - 09:52 PM, said:
Yeah, that extra speed does let you disengage, but most people wait until it's too late to try to disengage.
Like I said earlier in the thread, it is possible to wait too long to disengage even in a Light mech! A Medium mech pilot has to recognize the situation sooner and foot it the hell out of there sooner.
Speaking of which I just failed badly at reading the situation and getting out in time, LOL....
yup. first mistake is fixating on the kill. I just go in for damage, and the first sign of trouble, bail. Secret to my success in Mediums is actually to give a crap less about my stats. I just use that mobility to rove the battle line, and shoot whatever I see, only digging my teeth in when they present me the right chance. I have controlled battle lines often just by being willing to be all over the place, laying down suppressive fire, and taking opportunistic kills of over enthusiastic enemy pilots who overextend. With all these Champion Stalkers out there, it's been like taking candy from a baby, as it takes next to no time to core out a side torso, then flee. and time and again I find noobs advancing in them, or experienced players thinking they were safely behind line, only for me to gut them, then retreat. (I think my Ember is even better for this. My Goodness is it a vicious assault hunter)
But get cocky? And yeah, it probably is going to hurt. A lot. Though I am amazed by the things I have escaped from in my Shad. Stuff that I know my Victor would have died from, just because of that extra 5 seconds or so of focus fire.
#277
Posted 22 February 2014 - 12:47 AM
Bishop Steiner, on 21 February 2014 - 10:01 PM, said:
But get cocky? And yeah, it probably is going to hurt. A lot. Though I am amazed by the things I have escaped from in my Shad. Stuff that I know my Victor would have died from, just because of that extra 5 seconds or so of focus fire.
Boy, I wish I saw that more often in my matches. To escape in non-JJ mechs mostly and win.
#278
Posted 22 February 2014 - 06:28 AM
Praetor Shepard, on 22 February 2014 - 12:47 AM, said:
Boy, I wish I saw that more often in my matches. To escape in non-JJ mechs mostly and win.
well, I drive mostly JJ machines aside from my Jagers and Orions, which don't do so hot when cornered and focused. (And my Misery which I just bought.... ANd am having to remember, speed and agility are not only not my allies, but are fleeting memories, lol)
#279
Posted 22 February 2014 - 06:47 AM
We also need mech quirks badly....3x PPC no ghost heat for for Awesome ?..... Awesome.
#280
Posted 22 February 2014 - 11:24 PM
Praetor Shepard, on 22 February 2014 - 12:47 AM, said:
Boy, I wish I saw that more often in my matches. To escape in non-JJ mechs mostly and win.
Prior to the hill-climbing mechanics, it was a lot easier to plot an escape route in a non-JJ-capable mech.
I still remember winding my way through Canyon in a HBK, in a trench, when I saw an Atlas on the ridgeline above me. He saw me, so he jumped down into the trench to bring his torso weapons into arc. I thought to myself "oh I'll just climb back onto the ridgeline and get out of his torso elevation range". Then I tried to climb the ridgeline and got stuck. That was when they first put in the hill climbing restrictions.
Prior to that added mechanic, I would've been able to momentarily escape that Atlas. As it was I got ripped apart. Generally I don't like it when a game mechanic removes options from players. I wouldn't mind if hill climbing slowed us down. But the 100% dead-stop has closed off so much of the map and removed so many movement options from non-JJ mechs.
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