285 replies to this topic

[Nicholas Carlyle]

And if you threaten to mute someone, MUTE them. Don't be a tool and not do it.

When I say I'm going to mute you, I mute you. And I'm done.

[Bishop Steiner]

Awww.....now who is getting riled?


(also pretty sure you are the one who keeps calling my piloting skills awesome. I consider them high average. But apparently, since I am so much better than everyone else in my Mediums, by your reasoning, I must really stop selling myself short.)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 21 February 2014 - 01:49 PM.

[Artgathan]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 February 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

Spoiler

and the YLW has one of 31.25 per second. And a torso YAW of 120 degree vs the VTRs 90.

So yes, one can always cherry pick where specific instances of one being better than the other. Also you are comparing PITCH, not YAW. Aka, speed aiming up and down. Torso yaw speed (side to side) is 100 to the 80 for the VTR on the CN9-A vs the VTR-9S. And maxed out, fully unlocked and maxxed engine,. the difference in yaw speed is 137 degree per second, vs 96. (if one uses the Dragonslayer, the Yaw speed increases to 100 degrees per second. (max range of 108 degrees) Of course, then the YLW can twist 144 degrees, at 187 dps. And for comparison, the torso pitch is 25 degree at 84 dps vs 20 @ 56 dps. And the DS has a top speed of 89 vs 106 kph) So for mobility and agility, the Medium wins game, set and match.

So your argument is based on highly simplified information, and not actually indicative of the true differences per class.

Let's take my Shadowhawk now. 116 Kph vs 89. 27 kph difference in max speed. Torso yaw (twist) is the same 108 degrees but whereas the VTR is turning at 100 dps, the 2D2 twists at 163 dps. or 163% the speed of twist for the VTR. Both have JJs, so a wash there. Now the Shadow hawk has 30 degrees of pitch at 73 dps, vs 20 @ 56 dps for the DragonSlayer. 150% the pitch angle at nearly 150% the speed.

(Griffin 3m, by comparison, it 156 degrees at 144 dps, and can literally fire directly behind it when fully mastered. And the other "agile" assault? The Highlander has a 108 yaw at a snail like 72 dps)


So the agility difference is minor?

As for tonnage? Let's see, a maxed Engine (400XL) Dragonslayer peaks at 89 kph. At that speed it retains 42.5 tons for armor, weapons and equipment. The Shadowhawk achieves the same speed with a 275 XL, and has 38 tons left after. 4.5 tons difference for your mightily feared "Speed" Victor. (and BTW, only noobs run a VTR that fast, 340-360 are ideal engine ranges for VTRs) And your JJs weigh twice as much. (And the Highlander, 4 times as much). At this point, they have identical 108 degrees of yaw, but the SHD is still traversing at 127 dps vs 100. And still has 30 degrees of pitch vs 20, at a wash for pitch speed. Also, I believe despite model size, the Shadowhawk counts as Medium size for movement on terrain vs Huge for the Victor. Another agility advantage. Both twist and tank damage and protect their XLs like a boss.

The Point? The agility difference IS there, it's significant, and can impact one's piloting and survivability depending on role, terrain, etc. I can and have survived situations in my SHD that I quite literally would have just had to go down fighting in my Victor. And my Victor is better on average at slugging it out. Both are indeed quite useful, and quite different in how they are run.

And the funny thing is, I would agree the Mediums do need some separation still. I'm just trying to point out the ludicrousness that the agility differences are non existent, or so insignificant as to make no difference in how well one might do driving a Victor vs a Shadowhawk. There are the hard cold "maths" for you.

You missed the point. Given any two mechs in the whole game if the have the same top speed, they have the same turning speed. Doesn't matter if it's a Commando with a STD100, a Cenutrion with an XL200 or an Atlas with a STD400 - all of these mechs go 64.8 kph and they all turn at 45.86 degrees/second.

Also, using these engine sizes (all in degrees/second):

• Commando Pitch Speed: 67, Yaw: 120
  
• Centurion Pitch Speed: 45, Yaw: 100
  
• Atlas Pitch Speed: 45, Yaw: 80

Those aren't massive differences. Even mastered, the Centurion will only have a 20% faster pitch speed compared to the mech that is double its weight. The same holds true of the Commando in this example.

Counting the hill climb stats as a "huge advantage" is laughable at best when comparing two mechs that mount jump jets as well.

[Bishop Steiner]

Artgathan, on 21 February 2014 - 02:01 PM, said:

You missed the point. Given any two mechs in the whole game if the have the same top speed, they have the same turning speed. Doesn't matter if it's a Commando with a STD100, a Cenutrion with an XL200 or an Atlas with a STD400 - all of these mechs go 64.8 kph and they all turn at 45.86 degrees/second.

Also, using these engine sizes (all in degrees/second):

• Commando Pitch Speed: 67, Yaw: 120
  
• Centurion Pitch Speed: 45, Yaw: 100
  
• Atlas Pitch Speed: 45, Yaw: 80

Those aren't massive differences. Even mastered, the Centurion will only have a 20% faster pitch speed compared to the mech that is double its weight. The same holds true of the Commando in this example.


Counting the hill climb stats as a "huge advantage" is laughable at best when comparing two mechs that mount jump jets as well.

and, you are wrong. Turn speed is NOT the same between mechs just because their cruising speed is. 64 Kph Atlas turns and twists slower than a 64 Kph Hunchback.

[Artgathan]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 February 2014 - 02:30 PM, said:

and, you are wrong. Turn speed is NOT the same between mechs just because their cruising speed is. 64 Kph Atlas turns and twists slower than a 64 Kph Hunchback.

Source?

I'm quoting values from Smurfy here.

[Trauglodyte]

Let's look at the following then as a comparison: The Yen Lo Wang vs Victor 9S

- YLW w/ a 200 STD goes 71.3 w/ ST while the Victor has a 320 STD and goes the same speed
- Due to having the same speed, they have the same turning speed (45.86 degrees per second)
- With Elite Efficiencies, the YLW has the following stats vs. the Victor:

• Torso Yaw - 144 degrees (288 total) compared to 108 degrees (216 total)
  
• Torso Pitch - 25 degrees (50 total) compared to 20 degrees (40 total)
  
• Torso Yaw Speed - 125 degrees/second compared to 80 degrees/second
  
• Torso Pitch Speed - 56 degrees/second compared to 45 degrees/second
  
• Arm Yaw - 0 compared to 10 degrees
  
• Arm Pitch - 35 degrees (70 total) compared to 30 degrees (60 total)
  
• Arm Yaw Speed - 180 degrees/second compared to 180 degrees/second
  
• Arm Pitch Speed - 240 degrees/second compared to 180 degrees/second

After all is said and done, the YLW has 3.5 tons with which to play with 10 DHSs (2 external) while the Victor has 1 ton to play with, comes with 12 DHSs (2 external), 4 JJs, and an SRM6. That doesn't include having an armor edge of +47% but that is to be expected being 30 tons heavier.

The point is that both mechs have the same speed and the same weapons but the Victor still edges the YLW despite having marginally less torso/arm angles. So, if you're wanting to buy and run a humanoid mech that comes with an AC20 in the arm and 2 Md Lasers, what is the point of buying the YLW when the Victor provides so much more for such a small loss?

[KharnZor]

Onlystolen, on 15 February 2014 - 08:51 AM, said:

Argument invalid, most 80+ kph victors have sub satisfactory loadouts.

[Bishop Steiner]

Trauglodyte, on 21 February 2014 - 02:34 PM, said:

Let's look at the following then as a comparison: The Yen Lo Wang vs Victor 9S

- YLW w/ a 200 STD goes 71.3 w/ ST while the Victor has a 320 STD and goes the same speed
- Due to having the same speed, they have the same turning speed (45.86 degrees per second)
- With Elite Efficiencies, the YLW has the following stats vs. the Victor:

• Torso Yaw - 144 degrees (288 total) compared to 108 degrees (216 total)
  
• Torso Pitch - 25 degrees (50 total) compared to 20 degrees (40 total)
  
• Torso Yaw Speed - 125 degrees/second compared to 80 degrees/second
  
• Torso Pitch Speed - 56 degrees/second compared to 45 degrees/second
  
• Arm Yaw - 0 compared to 10 degrees
  
• Arm Pitch - 35 degrees (70 total) compared to 30 degrees (60 total)
  
• Arm Yaw Speed - 180 degrees/second compared to 180 degrees/second
  
• Arm Pitch Speed - 240 degrees/second compared to 180 degrees/second

After all is said and done, the YLW has 3.5 tons with which to play with 10 DHSs (2 external) while the Victor has 1 ton to play with, comes with 12 DHSs (2 external), 4 JJs, and an SRM6. That doesn't include having an armor edge of +47% but that is to be expected being 30 tons heavier.


The point is that both mechs have the same speed and the same weapons but the Victor still edges the YLW despite having marginally less torso/arm angles. So, if you're wanting to buy and run a humanoid mech that comes with an AC20 in the arm and 2 Md Lasers, what is the point of buying the YLW when the Victor provides so much more for such a small loss?

can the Victor run 106 kph? Because running 106 kph with an ac20 is exactly why you buy a YLW.

Artgathan, on 21 February 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

Source?

I'm quoting values from Smurfy here.

It is possible I am wrong about that, and am thinking twist rates.

[Trauglodyte]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 February 2014 - 02:42 PM, said:

can the Victor run 106 kph? Because running 106 kph with an ac20 is exactly why you buy a YLW.

I'm not arguing that, Bish. I like Mediums and don't think that they're that bad off. Size is a bit of an issue but it really comes down to weapon systems and what quirks you get for being a medium. That is all that I was showing. Given what it takes to run an AC20 and 2x Md Lasers and being 30 tons lighter than the Victor, you'd think that, given the same speeds, there would be more gained than just that.

Now, continue on with the discussion.

[Bishop Steiner]

Trauglodyte, on 21 February 2014 - 03:05 PM, said:

I'm not arguing that, Bish. I like Mediums and don't think that they're that bad off. Size is a bit of an issue but it really comes down to weapon systems and what quirks you get for being a medium. That is all that I was showing. Given what it takes to run an AC20 and 2x Md Lasers and being 30 tons lighter than the Victor, you'd think that, given the same speeds, there would be more gained than just that.

Now, continue on with the discussion.

I get it, just saying that while some things could definitely be improved, that they do indeed have their "niches", which is essentially what some on here are saying they can't do.

[Davers]

But medium mechs were supposed to be common, not 'niche'.

I understand the whole 'cheaper and easier to produce' argument, but that doesn't hold water in an environment where Cbills are such an easily replenished resource. And I don't want mediums to be the 'play a medium to make Cbills so you can play a match in the mech you really want'.

At high Elo people hit what and where they want to hit. A Victor or Highlander can survive this better than a medium. Sometimes greatly better than a medium, if that medium is a Hunchback.

Do mediums have some characteristics that are better then heavies or assaults? Yes. Can those occasionally turn the tide in a battle? Sure. But overall, they don't make up for the other advantages of 1. more tonnage, 2. Larger engines (and thus potentially more heatsinks and cooling), and 3. higher armor and structure values. It's kind of how PGI thinks giving a Spider the ability to equip 12 jump jets justifies only having 2 weapon hardpoints.

We can't add more tonnage, speed, or armor to mediums, but there should be something to make them stand out as a unique choice.

[Khobai]

Quote

We can't add more tonnage, speed, or armor to mediums, but there should be something to make them stand out as a unique choice.

We can give them more speed though, which is exactly what they need among other things. Mediums need to be able to disengage from fights at will like Light mechs. We can also slow down fast assaults like the Victor which simply should not be allowed to go 80kph.

Mediums should also get an extra module slot over other weight classes. Mediums are supposed to be the most versatile weight class and giving them more modules is one way that versatility can manifest itself.

[Cavendish]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 February 2014 - 01:01 PM, said:

53 pt alpha vs 35 (18 pt damage deficit, though real world, 13 pts, if I double tap UAC)

This is why your Victor win. The Shadowhawk can run a bit faster to get into position at the start of the game, but once the fight starts the Victor will dominate. The speed diffrence is not high enough to let the Shadowhawk dodge effectivly or break off the fight without getting 2 alphas in the back and get slaughtered.

[Bishop Steiner]

Cavendish, on 21 February 2014 - 09:20 PM, said:

This is why your Victor win. The Shadowhawk can run a bit faster to get into position at the start of the game, but once the fight starts the Victor will dominate. The speed diffrence is not high enough to let the Shadowhawk dodge effectivly or break off the fight without getting 2 alphas in the back and get slaughtered.

I have several hundred matches that says you are wrong. But feel free to believe otherwise

[YueFei]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 February 2014 - 09:38 PM, said:

I have several hundred matches that says you are wrong. But feel free to believe otherwise

Yeah, that extra speed does let you disengage, but most people wait until it's too late to try to disengage.

Like I said earlier in the thread, it is possible to wait too long to disengage even in a Light mech! A Medium mech pilot has to recognize the situation sooner and foot it the hell out of there sooner.

Speaking of which I just failed badly at reading the situation and getting out in time, LOL....

[Bishop Steiner]

YueFei, on 21 February 2014 - 09:52 PM, said:

Yeah, that extra speed does let you disengage, but most people wait until it's too late to try to disengage.

Like I said earlier in the thread, it is possible to wait too long to disengage even in a Light mech! A Medium mech pilot has to recognize the situation sooner and foot it the hell out of there sooner.

Speaking of which I just failed badly at reading the situation and getting out in time, LOL....

yup. first mistake is fixating on the kill. I just go in for damage, and the first sign of trouble, bail. Secret to my success in Mediums is actually to give a crap less about my stats. I just use that mobility to rove the battle line, and shoot whatever I see, only digging my teeth in when they present me the right chance. I have controlled battle lines often just by being willing to be all over the place, laying down suppressive fire, and taking opportunistic kills of over enthusiastic enemy pilots who overextend. With all these Champion Stalkers out there, it's been like taking candy from a baby, as it takes next to no time to core out a side torso, then flee. and time and again I find noobs advancing in them, or experienced players thinking they were safely behind line, only for me to gut them, then retreat. (I think my Ember is even better for this. My Goodness is it a vicious assault hunter)

But get cocky? And yeah, it probably is going to hurt. A lot. Though I am amazed by the things I have escaped from in my Shad. Stuff that I know my Victor would have died from, just because of that extra 5 seconds or so of focus fire.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 February 2014 - 10:01 PM, said:

yup. first mistake is fixating on the kill. I just go in for damage, and the first sign of trouble, bail. Secret to my success in Mediums is actually to give a crap less about my stats. I just use that mobility to rove the battle line, and shoot whatever I see, only digging my teeth in when they present me the right chance. I have controlled battle lines often just by being willing to be all over the place, laying down suppressive fire, and taking opportunistic kills of over enthusiastic enemy pilots who overextend. With all these Champion Stalkers out there, it's been like taking candy from a baby, as it takes next to no time to core out a side torso, then flee. and time and again I find noobs advancing in them, or experienced players thinking they were safely behind line, only for me to gut them, then retreat. (I think my Ember is even better for this. My Goodness is it a vicious assault hunter)

But get cocky? And yeah, it probably is going to hurt. A lot. Though I am amazed by the things I have escaped from in my Shad. Stuff that I know my Victor would have died from, just because of that extra 5 seconds or so of focus fire.

Boy, I wish I saw that more often in my matches. To escape in non-JJ mechs mostly and win.

[Bishop Steiner]

Praetor Shepard, on 22 February 2014 - 12:47 AM, said:

Boy, I wish I saw that more often in my matches. To escape in non-JJ mechs mostly and win.

well, I drive mostly JJ machines aside from my Jagers and Orions, which don't do so hot when cornered and focused. (And my Misery which I just bought.... ANd am having to remember, speed and agility are not only not my allies, but are fleeting memories, lol)

[dwwolf]

I wonder if they can restrict modules to specific mechs or size classes. That'd be one way to improve medium mech mobility.
We also need mech quirks badly....3x PPC no ghost heat for for Awesome ?..... Awesome.

[YueFei]

Praetor Shepard, on 22 February 2014 - 12:47 AM, said:

Boy, I wish I saw that more often in my matches. To escape in non-JJ mechs mostly and win.

Prior to the hill-climbing mechanics, it was a lot easier to plot an escape route in a non-JJ-capable mech.

I still remember winding my way through Canyon in a HBK, in a trench, when I saw an Atlas on the ridgeline above me. He saw me, so he jumped down into the trench to bring his torso weapons into arc. I thought to myself "oh I'll just climb back onto the ridgeline and get out of his torso elevation range". Then I tried to climb the ridgeline and got stuck. That was when they first put in the hill climbing restrictions.

Prior to that added mechanic, I would've been able to momentarily escape that Atlas. As it was I got ripped apart. Generally I don't like it when a game mechanic removes options from players. I wouldn't mind if hill climbing slowed us down. But the 100% dead-stop has closed off so much of the map and removed so many movement options from non-JJ mechs.